1. #9081
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And I don't see how anyone should have a problem with that regardless. It isn't being applied to people who watch the show who aren't influencers in the promo. The context is solidly placed at Amazon and this promo.
    Again I’m just providing examples of gate keeping “real fans” I can’t tell you why people have a problem of it I’m just pointing you to where it happened.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  2. #9082
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Again I’m just providing examples of gate keeping “real fans” I can’t tell you why people have a problem of it I’m just pointing you to where it happened.
    And I here saying I think they're bad examples considering the comments weren't actually criticisms being taken outside the context of the promo.

  3. #9083
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And I here saying I think they're bad examples considering the comments weren't actually criticisms being taken outside the context of the promo.
    Rather it’s about the promo or not it’s still gate keeping real fans.


    And the second one isn’t even about the promo it’s about this thread and how out of the fans to connect with in the thread there are none that liked the show.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-19 at 06:45 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #9084
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    And the second one isn’t even about the promo it’s about this thread and how out of the fans to connect with in the thread there are none that liked the show.
    Then that's just ignorance, not censorship.

    Expressing a personal anecdote, even in ignorance, is not a statement on who can or can not enjoy the show.

    You can point out what is being complained about, and I can point out how it has nothing to do with the complaint.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-19 at 07:08 PM.

  5. #9085
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then that's just ignorance, not censorship.
    No it’s dishonestly and gate keeping.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-19 at 07:14 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #9086
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    No it’s dishonestly and hate keeping.
    Which isn't relevant to the complaint, and is something different entirely.

    Are we accepting goalpost shifting now somehow?

  7. #9087
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Which isn't relevant to the complaint, and is something different entirely.

    Are we accepting goalpost shifting now somehow?

    Typos on gate aside, no it’s nothing different they were gate keeping and your trying to say that gate keeping was just ignorance when just reading the back and forth makes it clear it’s dishonesty instead as they not only said no fans liked it they went out of there way to point to them being white knights instead.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #9088
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Typos on gate aside, no it’s nothing different they were gate keeping and your trying to say that gate keeping was just ignorance when just reading the back and forth makes it clear it’s dishonesty instead as they not only said no fans liked it they went out of there way to point to them being white knights instead.
    You call it dishonesty but ignorance isn't immediately dishonesty.

    For all I know, maybe he was talking about people in real life and not about random stranger opinions that he doesn't trust, that wouldn't be dishonest even if it is ignorant.

    He didn't say no fans liked it, he said he didn't know any who did. That's quite a leap to assume his statement implies that he knows every fan, and is being blatantly dishonest about them all.

    I hope you understand how I don't consider twisting personal anecdotes into arguments to be examples of gatekeeping.

    If I say 'I don't know any pizza lovers who likes pineapple on pizza' it shouldn't be regarded as a gatekeeping statement against Hawaiian pizza. For all you know maybe I only know two people who love pizza, and they both happen to not like Hawaiian pizza. It's an anecdote, not a statement. IMO, it's not a reason for anyone to take offense to it. Even if it were 'hatekeeping' as you call it, it remains an anecdote of personal opinion.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-19 at 08:04 PM.

  9. #9089
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You call it dishonesty but ignorance isn't immediately dishonesty.

    For all I know, maybe he was talking about people in real life and not about random stranger opinions that he doesn't trust, that wouldn't be dishonest even if it is ignorant.

    He didn't say no fans liked it, he said he didn't know any who did. That's quite a leap to assume his statement implies that he knows every fan, and is being blatantly dishonest about them all.

    I hope you understand how I don't consider twisting personal anecdotes into arguments to be examples of gatekeeping.
    I call it dishonest because that's what it is just like you are being dishonest right now pretending that they were talking about real life when the post was in direct response to why people are here in this thread.

    But I shouldn't be surprised at this point given that you've said your just in the thread to troll in the past and are clearly continuing to do so.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  10. #9090
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I call it dishonest because that's what it is just like you are being dishonest right now pretending that they were talking about real life when the post was in direct response to why people are here in this thread.

    But I shouldn't be surprised at this point given that you've said your just in the thread to troll in the past and are clearly continuing to do so.
    Isn't that also why you're here?

    Be honest

    You're not actually answering anything I talked about, just pointing other things you don't find agreeable and making judgements.

    At that point, you're just trolling by trying to spin a personal anecdote into being 'gatekeeping' for the sake of argument. What's the difference?

    If you know I'm here to troll and you engage in responding to me, and then continue to argue for the sake of arguing, then I don't this being my problem. If you want to be on the higher horse and pretend I'm the troll, then you're telling me you're the kinda guy who knowingly engages with trolls.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-19 at 08:23 PM.

  11. #9091
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Isn't that also why you're here?

    Be honest

    You're not actually answering anything I talked about, just pointing other things you don't find agreeable and making judgements.

    At that point, you're just trolling by trying to spin a personal anecdote into being 'gatekeeping' for the sake of argument. What's the difference?

    If you know I'm here to troll and you engage in responding to me, and then continue to argue for the sake of arguing, then I don't this being my problem. If you want to be on the higher horse and pretend I'm the troll, then you're telling me you're the kinda guy who knowingly engages with trolls.
    No, The time's I've posted in a thread for the sake of trolling I could count on one hand and none of them have been in this one.

    Though your right it isn't your fault you have been clear your just here for the sake of trolling, I am the one at fault for forgetting that as I tend to do.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  12. #9092
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post

    Real fans didn't like it, in his opinion, anyone that did is just a white knight.
    I mean, thats your own fault by thinking tolkien fans = real fans

    you can be a fan of the work without being a fan of tolkien

    Literally claims nobody in the whole world liked it for what it was, that they must have just wanted to pass the time (50 hours...), or it was just pretty to look at. And that anyone that dare suggest they'd rewatch it, is only doing so out of spite, as if nerd rage on the internet actually matters to anyone.
    You are getting rly worked up for such hyperbole hun?

    Yet, everything is true, everyone who came here that didn't hate it, just though the show was ok and everyone talk about the strong points being the scenario, the world and the cgi, not the dialogue, not the writing, not the acting or the action.

    Belittles anyone remotely positive about the series as a "drone" because he cannot fathom someone enjoying it.
    Because you and the others didn't, just here to be the contrarian.

    Tells us, whats the best parts of the show, what you were most hyped about, i mean since you liked the show so much, go on, point your favorite parts

    LEts see if you will be bombarded and pushed away like you claimed people were doing

    This thread would have literally died already if people like you didn't feel the need to come and start talking about how much you hate it again, because you can't stop thinking about it lol
    And if you think that way, why you come here and start complaining about complainier, just so we can start talking again?

    Like come on, you don't rly want us to stop, you would not give us ammunition, otherwise you have nothing else to do, you need us.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    Anyone have thoughts on Tom Bombadil possibly appearing in season 2?

    I am not completely opposed to him being in the show because there is supposed to be some joy in middle earth, it’s not all rings and dark lords. But I fear he’d be attached to the nonsensical Harfoot story. If he were to interact with the elves and give the chance for the elves to show a bit of joy and lightheartedness, that’d be good. Which, again, is why they need to recast Gil Galad into something remotely approaching the character Tolkien envisioned…
    They are not that crazy to slip him into this shitstorm. As we saw, they would never do the character justice.

    But hear me out, im not a superfan like the people amazon brought to do their advertise, so i don't know if the dude appear outside lord of the rings, so i don't know if they can lore-wise.

  13. #9093
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Though your right it isn't your fault you have been clear your just here for the sake of trolling, I am the one at fault for forgetting that as I tend to do.
    You must forget quite often considering how often I see you engaging with people you consider to be dishonest, hatekeeping or trolling. Or merely in reference to them.

  14. #9094
    Herald of the Titans rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    No it’s dishonestly and gate keeping.
    you still didn't answer my question, furthermore, you have failed to define what a 'fan' or 'superfan' is, all you have done is assert that nobody needs to have any prior knowledge of a thing to be considered a fan of said thing (which is not only asinine it's factually wrong).

    all you have done in this most recent tirade is argue that calling someone who is clearly NOT a fan of the franchise, who has no actual knowledge of said franchise outside of passive surface level knowledge that is likely incorrect anyway, is make the claim that they are in fact a 'fan' despite all signs and information contradicting you.

    the reason their social media presence was mentioned in relation to them NOT being fans of the franchise is because they were paid to provide rave reviews of the product (this dumpster fire of a show) to their respective audiences, as well as meet the various quotas for gay/black/disabled/*insert other minority or protected group here* that Amazon is adamant about having with their extremely racist casting and hiring policies, and as stated not one of them has produced a SINGLE PIECE OF CONTENT either about LOTR or this show, not a single thing.

    to illustrate just how moronic your statement of defence for these clowns is, here's an example for you:

    based on your stupid definition of what classifies as a fan of something, you're saying that someone could be a fan of football, even though they don't know how it works at all, they don't know who plays the game but because they like 'sports' in general they are by extension a fan of this specific sport.

  15. #9095
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    you still didn't answer my question, furthermore, you have failed to define what a 'fan' or 'superfan' is, all you have done is assert that nobody needs to have any prior knowledge of a thing to be considered a fan of said thing (which is not only asinine it's factually wrong).
    I did answer your question in this post here, and Prior knowledge in this cases covers all of Tolkien's works as any and all are all you need to take in to be a fan of his that includes movies and novels and the Silmarillion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You must forget quite often considering how often I see you engaging with people you consider to be dishonest, hatekeeping or trolling. Or merely in reference to them.
    Yes I do have a tendency to do so Unfortunately.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-19 at 09:30 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #9096
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    ...
    I have at numerous points asked people like Rhole, keen and unified to provide receipts for the things that are so amazing/they love/they enjoy about the show. Instead they continue to attack people that didn't like/didn't enjoy the show. That is why I call such people drones.

    They don't have thoughts about what they enjoyed (things like they enjoyed the music, the CGI, certain scenes, etc), no instead they just attack the people who didn't enjoy it. No thoughts only attack, attack, attack, like good like robots.

    Like not once have they responded to one of the several people engaging them about what they enjoyed. For instance the scene where Durin conned Gil-Galad out of the table for his wife. While I don't think the scene fits as well into a Tolkien story (I feel if they wanted something of this nature it should have been the Elves conning the dwarfs) the scene was close enough it worked for me so I didn't mind it (minus the fuck awful dialogue that occurred afterwards of "give me the meat and give it to me raw"). That however would require them to have independent thought, so alas, no thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  17. #9097
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I have at numerous points asked people like Rhole, keen and unified to provide receipts for the things that are so amazing/they love/they enjoy about the show. Instead they continue to attack people that didn't like/didn't enjoy the show. That is why I call such people drones.
    Even when there has been discussions about those things you still dismiss it. Don't act all arrogant here. You are no better then what you accuse others of being. Also amusing how you have been attacking for several of your posts but are somehow not a "good little robot". That is the problem with people that take your position. You create an enemy and no matter what they say or do you find some way to rationalize why they are bad even when you do the exact same things you accuse them of doing.

    I've discussed many times what I've liked about scenes and what my own interpretation of things were. However since you don't like that it isn't blatant hate for the show it is dismissed as never occurring.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #9098
    Banned Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    lets get some basic things covered that can all be agreed upon ok?

    what were they there for?: they were present at this event to provide a review of the pre release trailer footage they were shown.

    what happened during the event?: they were flown out to a location on the Spanish island of Majorca to a venue that was hired out by Amazon for this 2 day event where the guests stayed and were 'wined and dined' while there, not only were they plied with alcohol and a gift set, they were also told they would be invited to a second event closer to the release of the show if they were favourable during this event.

    as part of their endorsement, they were paid by Amazon (in the form of hospitality and the copious gifts they were given when there) and in return gave a rave review, under UK law this sort of thing is illegal and is a clear conflict of interest, as such it should have been disclosed very clearly beforehand what was given to these people, and how their view was tarnished, it is also illegal to coerce a positive outcome from someone who is reviewing something who has taken payment for a service if they are an independent entity (which all of these 'superfans' are).

    the only reason people found out about the gift sets and the onsite gifts given on top of those gift sets is because someone who was there shared online a short video of them opening up their small gift bag, and in one of the non English videos they stated about how they were given as much alcohol as they wanted and how great it was, if it wasn't for these 'accidental slip ups' nobody would have known about these gifts, which makes things even worse, Amazon thought they could get away with it (and clearly did because nobody has the financial means to challenge it) by providing non monetary reparations for the positive reviews given by these 'superfans'.

    these 'superfans' broke the law by not disclosing they were payed to give their review and provided false and misleading information based on the understanding that they would receive further preferential treatment and further gifts if they provided a positive review, if they had disclosed these things it wouldn't be an issue, but because they purposefully hid them, and were later shamed into admitting they were given these things that's where the line is drawn, they knowingly and wilfully accepted payment to provide false and misleading information which could lead to financial gain for the person/persons that the review was designed to help, and that's where the breach occurs, but because the event wasn't held on the mainland UK, and because nobody has the financial means to contest such a thing in court against Amazon (who for all intents and purposes have unlimited funds) nobody has actually filed anything against them.

    these are all a year old at this point so if you genuinely wish to learn more about this entire debacle, go look it up, i'm sure you can easily find some of the videos on youtube that are still up, there might be some you can't find because they were forced down but the info is there, as for me it's nearly 4:30 A.M where i live and i'm going to bed, have fun, and i can't wait to see what excuses people will make for breaking the law regarding commercial gain and how Amazon did nothing wrong while making this so called 'masterpiece' of a shitshow.
    Which law are you actually citing? The only one I know of that deals with this is the content creators must disclose if they were sponsored on a video they created.
    Otherwise hired actors are breaking laws in every commercial.

  19. #9099
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    Anything involving Gil Galad doesn’t fit as a Tolkien story. There’s literally zero about his character that fits the lore.
    Consdiering his parentage was revised a couple of times that is a bold claim to make. Their is remarkably little about a lot of the characters Tolkien created. He was good at creating a mythology but lacked the detail of personalities, motivations, etc. It is also silly to say there is zero about his character that fits lore when his depiction has yet to contradict anything in the lore.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #9100
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The "not trusting" his motive was already present in the work. The reason for why is not part of canon. The motivation for why the elves were swayed by "ultimate power in the form of rings" is not. The character motivations are not really part of canon around these events. I'm not defending amateur show runners but just illogical points raised to hate on the show.
    I guess the showrunners did not know this. Or are you hearing this nuance out of their interview? I hear very clearly that they consider anyone that would take the rings as foolish. I think I know why. They have watched Shadow of Mordor with the scenes of Annatar giving the rings in very ominious circumstances and from that got the idea of it being a devil's bargain.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Tolkien maybe changing something is not weak at all.
    Yes it is. Because with that argument you can defend anything. Frodo could have had pink hair and cyberpunk upgrades, maybe Tolkien would have written that if he had the choice. Maybes and potential changes are not good arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Not according to the Estate and Tolkien's son. Jackson also had a complete work to go off of and he still improved on Tolkien's story. This is a perfect example of how when people don't like something they hate on things that they wouldn't do if they like it. You like Jackson's work so him improving on Tolkien's work isn't an issue. You hate the sh ow so them improving on his work is an issue. You say you don't need to look for reasons to justify your hate yet create things that only apply to the show while ignoring when it applies to things you like.
    I would not be surprised in the least if the billion dollar contract they signed with amazon also included a few lines that binds the Tolkiens to "like" the show at least in public.
    But even if not and it is genuine, so what? Knowledge and the ability to write are not genetic. Just because they are related does not mean that anything they like would be in accordance with Tolkiens ideas.
    But in general you missunderstood me. I say it would be fine to improve on Tolkien. The problem I have is that the show does not. It takes away and reduces his amazing world to a mere reflection of ours because the showrunners had a message to bring to the audience and that message superceded any intention of telling a compelling story.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is also silly to say Tolkien left our world behind when much of his writing reflected his experiences in the world. Not to mention the heavy Christianity themes in his work. Again an example of you ignoring things when you like something but using it as a bad thing when you don't like something. Strange, right?
    You are again missunderstanding me. What I am talking about is that a narrative only works if the author can pull the reader into the fanatasy world they created. Tolkien is a human and was socialized in 19th/20th century times with a christian background. That will always be part of his writing, but he still managed to establish a world that functions on it's own without needing to be a direct reflection of ours.
    You speak of heavy Christian themes. I would say I can barely notice them, despite having studied religion in university. They are there, but not in a way that would affect the story negatively. Conversely, with all the obvious political messaging in Rings of Power it is a wonder the series had time for plot because it is...in ...every... scene...so overdone that it suffocates the narrative.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The source material they're talking about is a few lines in LotR. You're wrong about Annatar as both Gil-galad and Galadriel were suspicious of him from the start but that's irrelevant as Annatar isn't even mentioned in the texts they have a license for. What they say is they started thinking of motives, looked at how the three Elven rings were used for preservation and the fading of the Elves, and decided they were good aspects to use to put some drama in the story they were telling. Obviously I didn't watch the influencer you linked because I don't want YouTube thinking I'm interested in that sort of culture warrior bullshit, so I don't know how much you got from that video and how much you made up, but your take that the showrunners thought Tolkien was a bad writer because he wasn't taught stranger-danger as a child is unhinged. It's fine to not like what they wrote (I'm not in love with how little interaction there was between Sauron and Celebrimbor) but why make up bullshit?
    I mainly linked the video because it was the easiest way to find the lines. Otherwise I would have had to go through the podcast and that was just a bit too much effort for this discussion (besides I did not want amazon to think I liked that drivel). The point however is my own conclusion, built on what the series shows me, combined with what the showrunners are saying. I do not require a youtuber for that.
    It is a fact that current hollywood is spending more time catering to poltics then to the quality of it's media, the examples for that are numerous. The same has happened here and it is the root of the problem. A fantasy world just does not lend itself to spoon-feed people a political idea unless you twist it so much that it is nigh unrecognizable.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I honestly don't see the world in RoP as a reflection of our own. There are severe discrepancies with the events Tolkien wrote about in his unpublished works but the actual setting feels extremely Tolkien, pretending the people who made it didn't appreciate what he wrote is nonsense, it absolutely shines through despite the restrictions with licensing and their inexperience with creating a show like this.
    I really can't see it and I have talked to many people about it who all agreed that there are big problems. But I mean, have you listened to what they are saying on this podcast? How is this "appreciation"? The literal words were "who would fall for that?", for one of the core ideas in the story. How else is this to be interpreted then "the author is writing idiot characters, we have to fix that".
    Then there were lines like Sauron "will be similar to Walter White". What the actual frag... There is modernizing things and then there is shoving succesful ideas into your project, because they worked somewhere else.

    I am not saying that I haven't seen worse shows. The Netflix Resident Evil and She-Hulk definately beat this one, but they really really had to do better to be worthy of the legacy they are taking over here. Unfortunately I see zero acceptance of that in the showrunners, since their only reaction to critism is pretending to be tragic heroes in the fight against rascism and misogynism, so season 2 is likely going to be the same level of quality.

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