Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

Right... but we are not talking about him either.

You can't put everything in the same bag.

Well i'm talking about him now, and I will say you believe in Santa Claus still and we both know your belief in his existence is true.

You would agree then, right?

[Orange Joe]

Uh didn't they literally just cite what it falls under?

No. It's a very broad act with many parts to it.

for example.




Would you say this applies?

[Triceron]

Here's the issue: Amazon lost money in 2022. They have a few divisions that are burning through huge amounts of cash and in the end it swamped all the revenue they made. They are losing lots of money on Alexa, and lots of money on Prime Video. The only place they made a profit was AWS. While this was a down year for them, it's also reasonable to argue that their strategy of using Prime Video as a loss leader is not working that well because it's too freaking expensive. They spent 16 billion on video last year and their net loss for the year was 2.7 billion.

Some very good points here.

Yes, Amazon ended up at a loss, but I don't think this can be immediately correlated to the specific losses in Alexa or Prime Video as causing this. Most sources I've seen cite post-pandemic shifts in the market away from e-commerce and back into brick and mortar stores. Factor in that Amazon poured a ton of resources into more infrastructure to handle the Pandemic shipping demands, and we are seeing a result of the shifts in supply/demand biting them in the ass.

There are also complications with investors moving away from big tech companies causing a sort of recession, but to be honest I don't know the details very well.

IMO, if the loss of online sales due to retail competition is substantially true, then building up incentives for Prime subscription is the smartest move for them. Outside of manufacturing some new form of pandemic to keep people indoors again.

They've made a big bet on prime video and it will take years to see how this all shakes out, but right now, spending massively on LOTR and getting a series with lukewarm reception doesn't seem like an obvious success yet. Again, if season 2 continues to post solid numbers I'll admit I'm wrong, but I'm not convinced it will because season 1 just wasn't that good.

I agree here, S2 will be a strong sign.

To be honest though, I don't think it would bomb since most people who watched it did consider it favourably. The majority doesn't come online to bitch about it, that's just the truth of the matter. And seeing as people who hated The Last Jedi still ended up seeing The Rise of Skywalker and continued to make shitty movies successful, I wouldn't put it past RoP continuing success purely on the basis that there's really little alternatives for any LOTR or fantasy fan to watch. And as for casuals, they mostly don't know or care about lore to give a shit anyways, which is what the show sorta doubles down on. It's not a good show for its lore or story, but it's a good show for the 'Hey if you liked those Gandalf movies you'll like this!' type of audience.

[bledgor]

To be honest though, I don't think it would bomb since most people who watched it did consider it favourably. The majority doesn't come online to bitch about it, that's just the truth of the matter. And seeing as people who hated The Last Jedi still ended up seeing The Rise of Skywalker and continued to make shitty movies successful, I wouldn't put it past RoP continuing success purely on the basis that there's really little alternatives for any LOTR or fantasy fan to watch. And as for casuals, they mostly don't know or care about lore to give a shit anyways, which is what the show sorta doubles down on. It's not a good show for its lore or story, but it's a good show for the 'Hey if you liked those Gandalf movies you'll like this!' type of audience.

Not sure that is the best defense since that trilogy dropped so sharply (Force brought in 2 Billion, by the time of Skywalker that had dropped by half). Doubly so when that might be the last film in the Star Wars universe for a while as it has largely been relegated to a TV/streaming service IP now. If the 2nd season doesn't start off very strong I could see them losing even more, in which case can RoP afford to continue to drop fans like that? Especially when you have shows with strong showings that even if they pull in less fans (think your Reacher sized series) cost a fuck ton less to produce.

Do I think they will every shit can the series? VERY unlikely, but I could easily see them downgrading/spending less money on the series if the numbers don't grow/continue to steady drop.

[Triceron]

Not sure that is the best defense since that trilogy dropped so sharply (Force brought in 2 Billion, by the time of Skywalker that had dropped by half). Doubly so when that might be the last film in the Star Wars universe for a while as it has largely been relegated to a TV/streaming service IP now

Didn't help with the shift in CEOs and the pandemic hitting theatres either though, but yes they pivoted in production and frontloaded their Disney Plus platform with shows.

But as I said, people still watched em regardless of quality. The trend of not watching a series because fans are let down is quite overblown. Look how House of the Dragon kept strong even after GoT's terrible final seasons. Or look how Book of Boba Fett and Obi Wan were mediocre productions that many SW fans criticized, yet still watched but many passed over the superior Andor series. As long as a show is deemed interesting, it has the potential to thrive. Shows tend to suffer if they fall under the radar, not because of controversy. Even the highly controversial Velma series sounds like it did pretty well for HBO.

Especially when you have shows with strong showings that even if they pull in less fans (think your Reacher sized series) cost a fuck ton less to produce.

And I think that loses the fundamental understanding for what Amazon's goals are.

Do you think Amazon cares about the show's ratings and production costs all that much if they dropped billions on Rings of Power? The whole point is to create flagship series that people would have reason to stay subbed for, amd frankly that is what worked for them. Like I said, even if you think the show is bad, there has not been any proof that the show actually did poorly. You could say other shows it has a growing or more consistent base, but these are all shows with staggered releases that are all meant to push the overall goal of maintaining incentives for Prime members to stay subbed throughout the year. And it's not likely someone would choose to actively unsub because of some irrational hate of a certain show on their platform. They aren't directly competing with each other and its not like Amazon has other flagship series in mind to replace RoP, which is already internally touted as being successful.

It would more likely suffer for them if people weren't interested at all, and that doesn't seem to be the case considering even hate watchers are watching. Like I said, even Velma is doing well for HBO amd everyone I've seen talk about it on these forums hates it. That is literally the vocal minority echo chamber in effect. It's not something I bet money on when talking about performance of shows

[rhorle]

While this was a down year for them, it's also reasonable to argue that their strategy of using Prime Video as a loss leader is not working that well because it's too freaking expensive. They spent 16 billion on video last year and their net loss for the year was 2.7 billion.

This is the problem when you look at numbers with your mind already made up. It could easily be that the 16 billion investment in Prime Video made it so they only lost 2.7 billion and not more. They also acquired a few companies in 2022 that if they did not could have erased that loss. MGM $8.5Bm, One Medical $3.9 billion, iRobot $1.7 billion. Those 3 are on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th on their list for biggest acquisitions they have ever done.

This is just your latest attempt at moving the goal posts to call the show a failure. You won't admit you are wrong with Season 2 you'll just find some other excuse as you've already said that it is a failure because you don't like it.

[rhorle]

Nope, i can say it, and without any proof, and it would still be argument because we both know is true

Because you know you made it up and can't actually prove it.

- - - Updated - - -

. Doubly so when that might be the last film in the Star Wars universe for a while as it has largely been relegated to a TV/streaming service IP now.

There are several movies in development for Star Wars including one by Kevin Feige.

- - - Updated - - -

It is different for Amazon because they are just trying for enormous scale and using their delivery service as a lever to get there.

Amazon has been producing quality shows since 2015. The only thing they are using Rings of Power for is to show they can handle the logistics, as a studio, to do big productions. They have already made a name for themselves with previous content even if you've personally never heard of them. Amazon has also stated that their new strategy is to release a tent pole series, something that draws people in, each month. They are not counting on one series alone to generate buzz for Prime Video.

Do you watch Grey's Anatomy? It has just been renewed for a 20th season. Does that mean the show is a failure for ABC because you don't like it? Nope. Different things appeal to different folks and you seem to be having trouble reconciling that the show didn't appeal to you.

[Triceron]

But good buzz is what gets and keeps subscribers. I subbed to Disney+ for a bit because of the Mandalorian. I am a 20 year subscriber to HBO because their content is consistently better quality than any other channel - and that started with the Sopranos.

I mean that's completely anecdotal.

'Good buzz' is honestly very subjective, because I could say someone who has no interest in sports isn't going to suddenly start recognizing the 'good buzz' about sports.
Doesn't change the fact that ESPN and the Superbowl are among the most watched things on TV, even if it's not on their radar.

You're not hearing good buzz because you're completely ignoring it. You said so yourself, you don't acknowledge that you know any fans who liked the show. Well, you're arguing with fans here in this thread who said they liked the show. I don't know what you would consider good buzz if this is your world view.

And I've also pointed out how Velma is doing very well for HBO in the numbers, while it's only gotten bad buzz around it. I could say the same for plenty of shows in this similar vein, like the Master of the Universe show a couple years back which got plenty of bad buzz and is now getting sequels.

It is different for Amazon because they are just trying for enormous scale and using their delivery service as a lever to get there. But I’m skeptical that a series that’s a critical failure the way Star Wars was helps them. Star Wars came with actual ticket sales, so they got $$$ that way. Amazon is trying to get people to view Prime as a service they can’t live without, and a forgettable mediocre adaptation doesn’t move that needle much.

I'd agree with this. The risk is quite great, and it's hard to gauge whether there will be a payoff in the next 5 years.

That being said I think this kind of thinking is still very subjective. It depends on who you talk to, because someone could argue Star Wars being a failure for not making any movies in the past 4 years, others could say it's a success because of how well Mandalorian did for streaming and opening many sequel series. It's all a matter of perspective.

And if it's in relation to Amazon and it's business, I think Fencers hit the mark by saying Amazon is only interested in money. That's what it all comes down to.

[Triceron]

I mean, it seems like common sense that the thing that keeps streamers (and for that matter, cable) in business is if they have "much watch" content. That's why live sports is worth so much, and why Game of Thrones was so important to HBO. Lukewarm hits don't do it.

It's not a lukewarm hit though, it's among the top of the top. If you are calling Rings of Power lukewarm, then what do you consider every Disney Plus show that didn't make Rings of Power's viewership numbers comparatively?

There's quite a disparity between what you feel Rings of power did, and how it actually did all things considered. I get your sentiment, I completely understand, but I won't let that get in the way of regarding Rings of Power as what it is - a success for Amazon, and a show that performed very well in total viewership. It did not do below average, it did not perform average, it didn't not perform slightly above average. It performed VERY well. It just didn't happen to be top of the top, cream of the crop, nor was it really talked about overall. It wasn't getting word of mouth buzz, rather it gained its massive viewership on the strength of the LOTR franchise and Amazon's marketting push in having everyone anticipate this big show. And that doesn't equate to lukewarm at all.

As for the articles you posted... none of them consider Rings of Power to be a 'Lukewarm hit.' It was a hit, just one that wasn't met with critical acclaim and fanfare like say a House of Dragons; or what The Last of Us is getting now.


I understand that there is a strong sentiment against Rings of Power due to the negative buzz, the questionable quality of the writing, and the perception that it doesn't seem to be 'making back its money'. These are all fine opinions to have and hold, if that is what you believe. But we should still be objective enough to give credit where credit is due. It reached the top 15 of streaming originals and helped break the monopoly held by Netflix; something NO original Disney plus show managed to reach. There's no reason to dance around this and pretend it was lukewarm.

I agree with most of that last article, except that I think the fan hatred is more of an issue than they realize.

Fan hatred is a byproduct of vocal minorities and echochambers. That's about it.

I wouldn't factor it into the discussion of performance. I would argue that fan hatred isn't a big issue if (for example) the hatred for GoT final season didn't affect the overall success of House of Dragons.

[Triceron]

I'd argue generating so much conversation, even just negative nerd rage on the internet that nobody really cares about, is a plus to RoP. It leads to people possibly watching it that may not have before reading things like that, wanting to check things out for themselves. They could enjoy it, be ready for S2. Hate it, and not bother with S2. Or they could just be ambivalent, and have a rather nonchalant view, they'll watch S2 if/when they ever feel like it.

To be blatantly honest here...

It's only generating nerd rage and 'interest' here, in this forum, in this thread, on the basis of people arguing principles unrelated to the actual show itself. It's all arguments around the show, like what people expect it to be, or in arguing against people who are deemed irrational for having any measure of criticism. There's very little actual substance relating directly to the show.

There wasn't really much buzz about the show even when it was airing.

The thread can die any time, honestly. We're beating the dead horse here because.. well... that's practically all anyone does here anyways. It's the same X number of people beating the same dead horse over and over again, with some odd newcomer coming in to give their 2 cents and being outright ignored.

[Syegfryed]

Ignoring the RoP balanced take (I actually agree that it is) coming from "winteriscoming.net" making me chuckle a little, and not trying to derail, it made me think about House of the Dragon. A series that generated incredibly small amounts of conversation on this forum; just 1071 posts, just shy of 79k thread views, and not a word said about it since the end of November. You certainly can't say that it had zero problems, and so there was nothing to bicker about, which is really what drives this thread to the more than 9.6k posts (560k thread views) made thus far. And, honestly, I've seen incredibly little about it elsewhere, either positive or negative. At least for Rings of Power, I still see adverts for it on TV from time to time (I don't watch much TV), including a KitKat advert, of all things.

The difference is that no one in the house of the dragon thread try to defend or attack the show without base or with bias. Something people do a lot of in this thread. A reflection of the show quality. If it was not by people pretending this was not a dumpsterfire, the thread would died out. Akin to everyone new season8 of got was a dumpsterfire, and no one wanted to say otherwise.

We talked about the bad points of the show(HotD), and no one came to say those in facts were good things and people were wrong by saying , its just that it and way more cool moments to talk about. In RoP? not a single good moment appart from some interaction in the forced relationship with durin and elrond that is mild at best.

Fan hatred is a byproduct of vocal minorities and echochambers. That's about it.

Usually yes, but why it can't be vocal majorities now and then?

This is one of those cases, cause its tolkien(same for start wars too, they talk a lot). also not many people who hate come online to discuss either, some just watched first episode and forget about it

I wouldn't factor it into the discussion of performance. I would argue that fan hatred isn't a big issue if (for example) the hatred for GoT final season didn't affect the overall success of House of Dragons.

nah dude, it affected, thats why the views increased each episode, it was not so hot on the first one, but it went better, exactly because it was good.

[Triceron]

Usually yes, but why it can't be vocal majorities now and then?

Because the reality is the silent majority doesn't care enough to engage in enthusiast-level online discussions. They just consume it as is. People like your uncle or workmate or dentist who casually watch these kind of shows and don't care enough to go online to talk about it. Majority of people who consume TV and film are silent about their opinions. Yes, even in this age of Twitter.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll disagree a little that there was no real buzz while it was airing, I'd argue there was for certain parts/scenes. But, as we've seen, it just gets drowned out by the bickering. I'm sure we're both guilty on that front, to some degree, tbf.

I was talking about the show in general online. My bad with the context and phrasing, I should have clarified that in the second paragraph when I separated the statement. Like, it had a ridiculously low online presence when it aired, and barely got any retweets for a show as big as it was. Here, yes, there was plenty of buzz; though like you said it was more like bickering than buzzing. Well, still is.

[Syegfryed]

Because the reality is the silent majority doesn't care enough to engage in enthusiast-level online discussions. They just consume it as is. People like your uncle or workmate or dentist who casually watch these kind of shows and don't care enough to go online to talk about it. Majority of people who consume TV and film are silent about their opinions. Yes, even in this age of Twitter.

Of course more people will not engage online than people that do, but that doesn't mean people engaging online are not in huge numbers as well. Its the reflection of ips being popular or having a faithful fanbase. Same way people were vitriolic online about the prequels and the sequels from star wars, people were pissed about what the show did to tolkien work.

I never saw that many people complaining/shitting on the show in social media and youtube before.

[Triceron]

Of course more people will not engage online than people that do, but that doesn't mean people engaging online are not in huge numbers as well.

Vocal minority is in contrast to silent majority, not in relation to other opposing vocal minorities.

No one uses the term 'vocal majority'. Vocal minority is always in reference to the Silent majority who aren't expressing any strong opinions either way.

What you're talking about is two different vocal minority groups opposing each other's opinions. It has nothing to do with what I mentioned about vocal minorities in the post you responded to, I want to be clear.

Fan hatred is a byproduct of vocal minorities and echochambers. That's about it.

You frequent echochambers, and you're mistaking the vocal minority to be representating a bigger chunk of the population than it really is. Whether we're talking about the online websites like boundingintocomics or youtube critics or forums like this, we're talking about echo-chambers with the same group of people who repeat the same opinion over and over again.

[Syegfryed]

Vocal minority is in contrast to silent majority, not in relation to other opposing vocal minorities.

No one uses the term 'vocal majority'. Vocal minority is always in reference to the Silent majority who aren't expressing any strong opinions either way.

What you're talking about is two different vocal minority groups opposing each other's opinions. It has nothing to do with what I mentioned about vocal minorities in the post you responded to, I want to be clear.

Fan hatred is a byproduct of vocal minorities and echochambers. That's about it.

What i merely saying is, the "vocal minority" is not that minor, at all. And fan hatred is not about echochambers. You can hate it and not talk about it

If you think im mistaking about vocal minority i think you are underestimating how big is the amount of people who voiced their dislike on the show.

[Triceron]

What i merely saying is, the "vocal minority" is not that minor, at all.

How many people would you figure is not minor? 10,000 people? 100,000? 1,000,000?

And are we seeing an online presence of this many people ALL complaining about the series and thinking it is terrible?

Put things into perspective. There are supposedly 100 million views of this show, worldwide. Even if 1m people worldwide collectively go online to say how terrible the show is, that would still be only 1% of the total viewership numbers this show has. And let's be real - there isn't even a vocal minority in the 100,000's on twitter who are all collectively saying how bad this show is. Even the official RoP twitter account has like 34.k people on it, and the show never really got major online buzz talking good OR bad about the show in general.

If you want to ever talk about a significant vocal minority, you need to put it in perspective of the total amount of viewers this show actually has and what that compares to.

If you think im mistaking about vocal minority i think you are underestimating how big is the amount of people who voiced their dislike on the show.

Even if we're talking about people in the hundreds or thousands going on twitter to voice their opinion, it's really nothing compared to the 100m total viewers this show has worldwide, and the silent majority who don't care to talk about it at all publicly.

[Syegfryed]

How many people would you figure is not minor?

that is another subject, but i say its more than minor if you can have this big of turmoil in social media and youtube.

Take by example Willow, a garbage show, that does not get the same hate, even when its worse, why? because its a ip barely someone care about, people complaining about then are minor compared to the ones complaining about lets say, game of thrones season 8 rings of power, the sequels.

Even if we're talking about people in the hundreds or thousands going on twitter to voice their opinion, it's really nothing compared to the 100m total viewers this show has worldwide, and the silent majority who don't care to talk about it at all publicly.

Right, but also, the point is, fan hatred is not just because echochambers, and even the people who hate it, and didn't voice online, direct affect the show performance and future. Because this person will not recommend to other people, hell, he would discourage people to watch it.

[Triceron]

that is another subject

No, it is not.

If you're going to respond to me about the use of 'vocal minority' then we're talking about vocal minorities. If you want to talk about something else entirely then don't bother responding about this specific thing and calling it a 'vocal majority'.

- - - Updated - - -

Right, but also, the point is, fan hatred is not just because echochambers, and even the people who hate it, and didn't voice online, direct affect the show performance and future. Because this person will not recommend to other people, hell, he would discourage people to watch it.

You know what, I'll give you this one.

You're right. I should have said 'Fans who express hatred online'. I was being too general in that phrasing.

But either way, my point in that was that it's not a big deal overall, since fans who hated something will still end up watching if they're interested enough, especially if there's simply a lack of alternatives. The real killer for any show is a complete lack of interest, not if fans actively hate a show, because even the haters will end up watching.

It's kind of the same deal for videogames. You have people who can swear up and down about how much they hate a certain game, but most of the time these people are actually still playing the very game they hate, and it still contributes to the game overall. It would be more damning if they just lost interest and stopped playing altogether instead.

[Syegfryed]

ITs valid to create a new thread to talk about tolkien stuff, since we are going to have war of the rohirrim in the future, so this thread can be buried in shame.

I need to see that movie first, if they will be able to pull something decent with something that does not have their own book

[Tuor]

Not really anywhere else to put this, and at least it's related. Someone can make a new thread if they want. I'm not going through that on mobile lol

More ‘Lord Of The Rings’ Movies In Works As Warner Bros & New Line Strike Rights Deal

I'm sure folks will recall that New Line released Peter Jackson's trilogy.

The 4 main stories Tolkien had in mind are:

1- The story of Tuor and the fall of Gondolin;
2- The story of Turin Turambar and the sons of Hurin;
3- The story of Beren and Luthien;
4- The story of Earendill.

So plenty of lore for new movies.