Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

Except you are literally wrong pretty much everyone I know has prime for delivery maybe a quarter use the streaming at all and most of them are watching old multi season shows Grimm and Bones for example. Much like Netflix is currently promoting that they have all gazillion series of ncis because people want mindless popcorn.

NCIS has been on the air for 20 seasons so far. It is tied for 5th place on longest running scripted prime time television series in the United states. If it has one more season it will beat Gunsmoke (1955-1975) and claim 5th place. Why wouldn't Netflix promote a popular series?

[Syegfryed]

I really wonder if you have ever seen any one who's actually in there 70's.

Yeah, don't try to play like that when you are the one with bad eyesight saying Celebrimbor looks more elvish than Adar.

ya the show disagrees with you and describes him as a orc there is no getting around that even if he doesn't look the like others.

So you are one of those people:

Tolkien's text disagree indicated by the quotes I've posted form the Silmarilion

tolkien texts literally had a note that says "alter this, orcs are not elvish" in The Annals of Aman

And his countless descriptions of they being smaller than men, sallow, jagged teeth, etc.

Tolkien's elves don't have pointy ears in his actual works, I recall correctly.

Then how they can look elvish, if they don't have the one and only characteristic that elves possess that humans do not that could identify then as elves? lmao

Hence more to the idea that orcs actually came from men and not elves

[rhorle]

tolkien texts literally had a note that says "alter this, orcs are not elvish" in The Annals of Aman

Right. They were not altered however so we are left with what the Author published and wrote about those published works. Tolkien wanted to re-write the entirety of the The Hobbit to change its story and tone to better for Lord of the Rings. He did not pursue that beyond a few chapters. We can't claim those few chapters as canon though because they did not happen. Just like the note in the margin.

Then how they can look elvish, if they don't have the one and only characteristic that elves possess that humans do not that could identify then as elves? lmao

So you admit you lied when you said Celebrimbor in Rings of Powers does not look elvish. As he has pointy ears and that is the only characteristic that elves possess to set them apart from non-elves, right?

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Tolkien's elves don't have pointy ears in his actual works, I recall correctly.

Tolkien said Elven ears were more pointed and leaf like than humans. It implies pointed as they can't be "more pointed" with having something that looks like a point. Leaves are often pointed as well. It is a semantics issue because people don't like the association pointy-ears have with other depictions of Elves in fantasy.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah, don't try to play like that when you are the one with bad eyesight saying Celebrimbor looks more elvish than Adar.

I mean you think he's he looks like a dying man I don't think you should be talking about any one's eyesight.

So you are one of those people:

I suggest you never look up some of the more extreme birth defects/heritable genes that we have in the real world that make people look vastly out of the norm.

The idea that there can't be huge variation down generations is just silly.

tolkien texts literally had a note that says "alter this, orcs are not elvish" in The Annals of Aman

And his countless descriptions of they being smaller than men, sallow, jagged teeth, etc.

I can't find a good version of the annal's of aman like i did with the Silmarillion but from what I did find he was seemingly referring to origin not a description, he also wrote in a later chapter (Myths Transformed) "there remains a terrible possibility of an Elvish strain in orcs." which is what he put both in the twin's towers and the Silmarillion.

If you can find better quotes in full context or a good version of it then please link/quote it other wise it just sounds like his back and forth on there origin which ended in favor of elves in his actual works.

Then how they can look elvish, if they don't have the one and only characteristic that elves possess that humans do not that could identify then as elves? lmao

Hence more to the idea that orcs actually came from men and not elves

again unless I am mistaken, Tolkien never describes elves having pointed ears to a notable degree in his actual works, So it's not the only characterstic that could identify elves as it's something elves don't have, nor do orc come from men as already covered in both the two towers and the Silmarillion.

So every thing you are saying is just based off false notations while the passage in question still tells us that actual elves thought orcs could have been savage evil elves not a variation of humans and certainly not oatmeal monsters like jackson did.

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Tolkien said Elven ears were more pointed and leaf like than humans. It implies pointed as they can't be "more pointed" with having something that looks like a point. Leaves are often pointed as well. It is a semantics issue because people don't like the association pointy-ears have with other depictions of Elves in fantasy.

I did see that referenced but not actually linked to any actual works and found other things that would dispute it like this for example.

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.

This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in the body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.

which obviously doesn't point towards them having pointed ears as kid's could be mistaken as either race, unless of course some one wanted to say there ear's point at 15 when thye "attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure"

but as you said I think it's just pointless semantics and the idea that the elves would be talking about the orc's just having pointy ears and that's what makes them look like "savage and evil" elves is incredibly silly.

[rhorle]

which obviously doesn't point towards them having pointed ears as kid's could be mistaken as either race, unless of course some one wanted to say there ear's point at 15 when thye "attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure"

In real life our ears are 90% finished growing by age six from what a quick google search indicates. So it is possible that Elven ears start to change at a later age. Or it simply could be longer hair obscuring differences. Turin, a human, was mistaken for an Elf at times. So even fully grown, when differences would be more apparent, they could still be confused.

At least we know hobbits had slightly pointed ears since Tolkien explicitly corrected an artists depiction. It is strange at times what details Tolkien left out despite having such a detailed work.

[Syegfryed]

I mean you think he's he looks like a dying man I don't think you should be talking about any one's eyesight.

I said he look like an old guy, saying he looks like a dying old fart is obviously an exaggeration to emphasize how ridiculous it is to make an old elf, that is supossed to be younger than Galadriel herself.

The idea that there can't be huge variation down generations is just silly.

the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.

I can't find a good version of the annal's of aman like i did with the Silmarillion but from what I did find he was seemingly referring to origin not a description, he also wrote in a later chapter (Myths Transformed) "there remains a terrible possibility of an Elvish strain in orcs." which is what he put both in the twin's towers and the Silmarillion.

Its was a note that was not published, it was found and mentioned by his son, so i at elast can't have acess to. And the idea of "then not being elvish" is also tied with their appearance, and if they are not elvish they can't look like elves either way.

That strain you mention is how one of the tolkien ideas of the origin of orcs was about mixing humans and elves.

again unless I am mistaken, Tolkien never describes elves having pointed ears to a notable degree in his actual works, So it's not the only characterstic that could identify elves as it's something elves don't have, nor do orc come from men as already covered in both the two towers and the Silmarillion.

Unless it is some sort of mandela effect, he did describe their ears being pointy, inhumanly pointy, since im pretty sure the dwarves use as pejorative.

So every thing you are saying is just based off false notations while the passage in question still tells us that actual elves thought orcs could have been savage evil elves not a variation of humans and certainly not oatmeal monsters like jackson did.

Just because they though they could come from elves, does not mean they looked like then, so pointless.

Even pointless when again, Tolkien was changing their origins to be human descendant.

[rhorle]

the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.

Calling a group "my children" does not have to mean they are your literal children. We don't know much of his backstory but we do know he has the title of "Lord Father". He could simply be a cult leader and referring to his followers or tribe/clan as his children. It is implied something happened between Adar and Sauron. Adar asks what he did to Halbrand. He asks if he killed his wife or something. There is clearly a lot more to the picture including Adar thinking he killed Sauron when he clearly did not and the story of how Halbrand got kicked out of "his kingdom".

There is nothing in the show to imply they are biologically his children or first generation after he was corrupted. Even then Gollum was twisted by the magic of the ring there is no telling what powerful "dark magic" can do to things. It is entire possible for it to twist and deform quickly.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.

from a quick google, Orcs were made in the first age, Hundreds of thousands were bred, they took part in the Battle of the Lammoth which took place at the first year of the first age, the second age was 1500 years later, Suaron showed up to take command of the orcs 1000 years into the second age which would be about when Rop would be set.

it wasn't a few generations, it isn't strongly implied to be one generation.

but beyond again I get your Ignorant about this stuff but you can absolutely have that much variation in even one generation when outside forces are effecting your children there have been many cases of poulaines causes mass birth defects in children's from one waste product or another.

Its was a note that was not published, it was found and mentioned by his son, so i at elast can't have acess to. And the idea of "then not being elvish" is also tied with their appearance, and if they are not elvish they can't look like elves either way.

That strain you mention is how one of the tolkien ideas of the origin of orcs was about mixing humans and elves.

The mixed Origin from what I've found is that both elves and men were corrupted not that they were mixed together, If orcs come form both elves then some orcs would still be elvish so that would still fit with Adar.

but again, repeated in both published and unpublished works it is stated that orcs are in fact Elvish they come from elves and other elves in the settings note that they seem like elves but savage and evil.

Tolkein may have said in one note that they weren't elvish but in later notes changed again to them being elvish and in his published works both from him self and his son they are elvish.

Unless it is some sort of mandela effect, he did describe their ears being pointy, inhumanly pointy, since im pretty sure the dwarves use as pejorative.

Id say it's likely the Mandela effect just like with the "twisted and mutilated" form the jackson movies.

Just because they though they could come from elves, does not mean they looked like then, so pointless.

Even pointless when again, Tolkien was changing their origins to be human descendant.

Your right it doesn't guarantee they looked like them, it does how ever make it more likely that they looked like elves then the oatmeal orcs Jackson made.

And again he might have been going back and forth on the Origin but making them from human's is something that was never settled while them being from elves stood for both his published works and the works his son published.

[Surfd]

the idea that there is that much of variation in few generations is indeed, silly. And from what we saw in the show, is ONE generation, as they are his children, strongly imply biologically.

It may not be as silly as you think, if you accept that the orcs origins are a result of the corruption of elvish souls. Tolkien was pretty big on the concept that the nature of the fëa (soul) had a pretty big impact on the nature of the hröa (body). Elvish bodies were stronger, tougher, resistant to sickness and disease, and capable of healing from wounds that would be fatal to normal mortals because of the strength of their souls, and even Men have legends that they were "stronger" in the early ages before falling under the influence of corruption (like they may not have been immortal, but they still could live for hundreds of years, etc).

It could stand to reason then that physiological signs of having your soul corrupted could manifest pretty rapidly in future generations, especially when you are "born" with a corrupted soul.

[Syegfryed]

it wasn't a few generations, it isn't strongly implied to be one generation.

Nice, but you are just forgetting that the timeline in the show is all over the place and is not right, so trying to use the timeline from the books to the movies is silly. By example, the word Uruk should not even be a thing yet, since the blackspeech is invented by Sauron later, and the word was used for the biger orcs in the third age..

Adar implies it is his children, like he is their father, biologically, so its not many generations, again, due to the timeline being compressed in the show and they changing up the lore.

The mixed Origin from what I've found is that both elves and men were corrupted not that they were mixed together, If orcs come form both elves then some orcs would still be elvish so that would still fit with Adar.

Both races were corrupted and breed with each other to produce the orcs.

And again, no, it would not, because Adar do not share any of orcs characteristics that tolkien described.

but again, repeated in both published and unpublished works it is stated that orcs are in fact Elvish they come from elves and other elves in the settings note that they seem like elves but savage and evil.

that is only true because his son published silmarilion with the origin he chosed, is not Tolkien himself, by any means of canonicity, their origin is set unknown(and will stay forever unknown cause he died before finishing it) but strongly suggest human ancestry, because again, immortal orcs, and their twisted and corrupted souls going to Mando would be problematic for his universe.

Tolkein may have said in one note that they weren't elvish but in later notes changed again to them being elvish and in his published works both from him self and his son they are elvish.

It was his later notes, mind you, the "timeline" put the elven origin as the early ones, that were scraped to give place to the one that they came from men, just because he died before he finished doesn't mean isn't as vallid(or more) than the others.

Your right it doesn't guarantee they looked like them, it does how ever make it more likely that they looked like elves then the oatmeal orcs Jackson made.

I say they would look more like azog from the hobit or the ones in the show itself.

Because tolkien description of orcs is again, smaller than men(only a few rare ones could stand to men height), thus way smaller than elves, jagged teeth, crooked, long arms, etc, not of that is "elvish"(so, yeah, Jacksons orcs are more orcs than Adar).

Is like looking at Gollum and saying "well this looks like hobit-ish that went to the dark and became savage, eating raw fish and living like an animal"(because he was) and Gollum is monstrous compared to a normal hobbit.

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It could stand to reason then that physiological signs of having your soul corrupted could manifest pretty rapidly in future generations, especially when you are "born" with a corrupted soul.

The effects of the corruption would be show in their own bodies if that would be the case, see Gollum and how he changed after being corrupted. And they got Corrupted by Morgoth itself, not lowly ring. you know, the guy who made trolls and dragons.

The idea of they being corrupted and nothing changing just some marks on his face is nonsense.

[Fabinas]

Explain to me: the goal of a company like Amazon is to make money. If this is a success it must have either made money or helped them make money. How did it do that?

Oh ffs, stop rehashing the same discussion with other people.
@Fencers has clearly described how they can or possibly have already made money with the results already achieved.

How they did or if they did is known only to someone privy to the economics of Amazon Studios, so, don't ask people for their speculation, just to dismiss it as lies with your "objective truths".

[Syegfryed]

Well, maybe Amazon is not going to the Disney+ path, i heard they lost quite a few subscribers

[SpaghettiMonk]

Oh ffs, stop rehashing the same discussion with other people.
@Fencers has clearly described how they can or possibly have already made money with the results already achieved.

How they did or if they did is known only to someone privy to the economics of Amazon Studios, so, don't ask people for their speculation, just to dismiss it as lies with your "objective truths".

Fencers has not said that. He (or she) has claimed that they did but not said how. Most of his/her posts are about how they got great numbers, but nothing to address how they could have made money on a product they gave away for free. Stop misrepresenting someone else's posts.

I also would never use "objective" either, you're misrepresenting my posts too.

So uh, nothing about your post above is remotely accurate. Wanna try again?

[Fabinas]

Fencers has not said that. He (or she) has claimed that they did but not said how. Most of his/her posts are about how they got great numbers, but nothing to address how they could have made money on a product they gave away for free. Stop misrepresenting someone else's posts.

I also would never use "objective" either, you're misrepresenting my posts too.

So uh, nothing about your post above is remotely accurate. Wanna try again?

No. /10char

[SpaghettiMonk]

No. /10char

This whole conversation feels like:

https://youtu.be/XEL65gywwHQ

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Nice, but you are just forgetting that the timeline in the show is all over the place and is not right, so trying to use the timeline from the books to the movies is silly. By example, the word Uruk should not even be a thing yet, since the blackspeech is invented by Sauron later, and the word was used for the biger orcs in the third age..

Adar implies it is his children, like he is their father, biologically, so its not many generations, again, due to the timeline being compressed in the show and they changing up the lore.

even if we say we say the timeline is convoluted there is still seemingly a gap of hundreds if not thousands of years, it’s still many generations.

And again, no it’s not implied they are his directly biological kids.

Both races were corrupted and breed with each other to produce the orcs.

No, nowhere does it mention them Being bred with each other to make orcs.

And again, no, it would not, because Adar do not share any of orcs characteristics that tolkien described.

Neither do most of Jackson/Rop orcs.

that is only true because his son published silmarilion with the origin he chosed, is not Tolkien himself, by any means of canonicity, their origin is set unknown(and will stay forever unknown cause he died before finishing it) but strongly suggest human ancestry, because again, immortal orcs, and their twisted and corrupted souls going to Mando would be problematic for his universe.

you can keep trying I ignore it but Tolkien him self published there origin in the two towers. He may have wanted to change it he may have flipped flopped on that change writing in one note that they were human and then in a later one that they were from both humans and elves but the canon origin from both Tolkien and his son is that they were from elves.

It was his later notes, mind you, the "timeline" put the elven origin as the early ones, that were scraped to give place to the one that they came from men, just because he died before he finished doesn't mean isn't as vallid(or more) than the others.

the timeline places them as coming from slime, being mindless beast, being corrupted elves, being from humans, being from elves and humans, according to his unpublished notes and there chapters lay out. The latest origin before his death still invoked elves.

and again the only published origin by both him and his son has them come from elves.

I say they would look more like azog from the hobit or the ones in the show itself.

Because tolkien description of orcs is again, smaller than men(only a few rare ones could stand to men height), thus way smaller than elves, jagged teeth, crooked, long arms, etc, not of that is "elvish"(so, yeah, Jacksons orcs are more orcs than Adar).

Azog is nothing like Tolkien described, either in his Mongol like description or the one you are giving here. He is taller then an elves, his men are about the same size making him not an rare exception he has the same proportions as a man with no elongated arms. And he obviously doesn’t have dark skin. At best he might have jagged teeth.

So ya Jackson’s orcs are nothing like Tolkiens even using your go to orc and go to description.

[Fencers]

Except you are literally wrong pretty much everyone I know has prime for delivery maybe a quarter use the streaming at all and most of them are watching old multi season shows Grimm and Bones for example. Much like Netflix is currently promoting that they have all gazillion series of ncis because people want mindless popcorn.

The streaming business is not about getting people to sign up for any particular show. No platform is ever going to get over to the point where you are signing up millions of subscribers just for X show. You're providing a service of various properties you can leverage.

Who you personally know and why they do this or that is not relevant.

I am not discussing or ever have been, the quality of the show or the motivations of the consumers. This is of zero interest and concern to me- I don't care about this show one bit.

[Fencers]

Its all very tedious. And kinda sad.

Yeah, especially because they are arguing with the wind. The data was collected. People who matter to the business made their decisions weeks or months ago.

There is no developmental executive thinking about Sven's opinion on orcs and elves on a subforum while sitting on their golden toilet.

[Syegfryed]

even if we say we say the timeline is convoluted there is still seemingly a gap of hundreds if not thousands of years, it’s still many generations.

Thats you assuming that, there is nothing saying there is, and, if the orcs are indeed elven descendant, they would be immortal as well, so no there would not be that many generations.

The showrunenrs themselves said those are very early orcs, since they were pale -bone white, so they would not be that much generations.

And again, no it’s not implied they are his directly biological kids.

I mean, it does implies with his dialogue, but the dialogues were awful anyway.

No, nowhere does it mention them Being bred with each other to make orcs.

the mixed origin just say he use both human and elvish, the general concept of he breeding then with the ones corrupted still stays.

Neither do most of Jackson/Rop orcs.

Thats compltely false

Tolkien state orcs are small, croocked, sallow, fanged mouth, long arms, and the ones in the movies/show(except ADAR) fit that description. You can nitpick they not being perfectly the same, but generally they fit more than the elf

.

you can keep trying I ignore it but Tolkien him self published there origin in the two towers

He didn't, thats just unreliable narrator.

the timeline places them as coming from slime, being mindless beast, being corrupted elves, being from humans, being from elves and humans, according to his unpublished notes and there chapters lay out. The latest origin before his death still invoked elves.

Slime and heat -> elves -> animals -> mixed origin -> corrupted men.

Azog is nothing like Tolkien described, either in his Mongol like description or the one you are giving here. He is taller then an elves, his men are about the same size making him not an rare exception he has the same proportions as a man with no elongated arms. And he obviously doesn’t have dark skin. At best he might have jagged teeth.

So ya Jackson’s orcs are nothing like Tolkiens even using your go to orc and go to description.

Thats dumbshit here, him being an outlier, a rare exception doesn't mean his orcs are not accurate, Because Tolkien himself said there were a few orcs who could stand at human height.

When i said he would look more like azog or the RoP orcs is in the design, instead of the ones in the movies, a comparison between the two. .

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Thats you assuming that, there is nothing saying there is, and, if the orcs are indeed elven descendant, they would be immortal as well, so no there would not be that many generations.

The showrunenrs themselves said those are very early orcs, since they were pale -bone white, so they would not be that much generations.

I went ahead and checked, the show says the war went on for century's, as well as saying they "multiplied ever great", followed by Glad searching for Sauron for more century's.

So no it's not me assuming its hundreds of years and even if they were immortal if orcs died on mass in the war and spread on mass after it there were many new ones bred through multiple generations unless you want to say orcs breed like rats and pop out 5 kids a time.

the show also say's adar is an orc so.

I mean, it does implies with his dialogue, but the dialogues were awful anyway.

No, it doesnt.

the mixed origin just say he use both human and elvish, the general concept of he breeding then with the ones corrupted still stays.

again them breeding men and elves isn't said any where that's just something you made up.

Thats compltely false

Tolkien state orcs are small, croocked, sallow, fanged mouth, long arms, and the ones in the movies/show(except ADAR) fit that description. You can nitpick they not being perfectly the same, but generally they fit more than the elf

Ya no they don't fit the description at all even the tamest none oatmeal orcs like azog and his men don't come close.
.

He didn't, thats just unreliable narrator.

No.

Slime and heat -> elves -> animals -> mixed origin -> corrupted men.

I've already referenced the chapters of his note's and how the mixed origin is in a later chapter then corrupted men, meaning it is the newest Origin.

at this point you unless you actually back these things up I'm just gonna go with you making things up because like nothing you have posted thus far actually meshes with anything I can find from tolkins works.

Thats dumbshit here, him being an outlier, a rare exception doesn't mean his orcs are not accurate, Because Tolkien himself said there were a few orcs who could stand at human height.

When i said he would look more like azog or the RoP orcs is in the design, instead of the ones in the movies, a comparison between the two. .

I linked pictures of his men, he's not a rare exception, Nor are jackson's orcs smaller then men as we can see with Boromir's death scene.. Rop orc's are also the same size or bigger.

Jackson's orc's and the Rop Orcs do not fit the description unless your just going with where he said things like "degraded and repulsive".