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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I went ahead and checked, the show says the war went on for century's, as well as saying they "multiplied ever great", followed by Glad searching for Sauron for more century's.

    So no it's not me assuming its hundreds of years and even if they were immortal if orcs died on mass in the war and spread on mass after it there were many new ones bred through multiple generations unless you want to say orcs breed like rats and pop out 5 kids a time.
    And if that was true, we would be more elves like adar running among then, he can't possible the last one.

    Unless, of course, he just wasn't fully transformed, as he says, so he could suffer with emotions.
    the show also say's adar is an orc so.
    If we are going for that, it says he is a moriondor.

    again them breeding men and elves isn't said any where that's just something you made up.
    Its the mxied origin, that they had a elven strain, would do you think they would get this elven strain if not by brreeding? lol

    he also mention how they could be minor spirits and fallen maiar.
    Ya no they don't fit the description at all even the tamest none oatmeal orcs like azog and his men don't come close.
    Indeed it does, and, its closer to what tolkien described, unlike Adar, which is the whole point that you are deviating.

    .

    I've already referenced the chapters of his note's and how the mixed origin is in a later chapter then corrupted men, meaning it is the newest Origin.
    The last one was corrupted men, the elven descendant is one of the oldest ones.
    I linked pictures of his men, he's not a rare exception, Nor are jackson's orcs smaller then men as we can see with Boromir's death scene.. Rop orc's are also the same size or bigger.
    boromir scene ahve Uruk-hais, THAT ARE DESCRIBED BIGGER, lol.

    See the snaga or by example, the ones who took Frodo after the spider attack, dude is sallow, have fangged teeth, crocked and smaller then men, almost hobbit size.

    You saying the is bigger ones does not contradict shit since he himself said there are exceptions.

    Jackson's orc's and the Rop Orcs do not fit the description unless your just going with where he said things like "degraded and repulsive".
    They fit more than adar that is just an elf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And if that was true, we would be more elves like adar running among then, he can't possible the last one.

    Unless, of course, he just wasn't fully transformed, as he says, so he could suffer with emotions.
    Ya no you assuming that doesn't make it the case at all.


    If we are going for that, it says he is a moriondor.
    again here's the actaul quote.

    Galadrial: You are one of them are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.
    Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."


    Its the mxied origin, that they had a elven strain, would do you think they would get this elven strain if not by brreeding? lol
    The same way they got the human one and what is described in the Silmarillion, Corrupting them.



    Indeed it does, and, its closer to what tolkien described, unlike Adar, which is the whole point that you are deviating.
    Nope, Tolkien Has elves say orcs look like they could be savage and evil elves, Adar is closer to that then the oatmeal monsters.


    The last one was corrupted men, the elven descendant is one of the oldest ones.
    Again link something to back it up because the chapter structure of his notes disagrees so I'm just gonna go with you making that up.


    boromir scene ahve Uruk-hais, THAT ARE DESCRIBED BIGGER, lol.

    See the snaga or by example, the ones who took Frodo after the spider attack, dude is sallow, have fangged teeth, crocked and smaller then men, almost hobbit size.

    You saying the is bigger ones does not contradict shit since he himself said there are exceptions.
    Your right those are Uruk-hai's.

    Though Going through how jackson Depicted them there are multiple different kinds of orcs from multiple different battles that are not Uruk hai's that are also just as tall as men like like the Morannon Orcs who jackson made him self not based off Tolkien.

    Only the orcs that capture Frodo after the spider are seemingly smaller then men though Id have to rewatch all the movies to actually check that for sure.

    So at best Jackson ignored your description the majority of the time using it for just one or so group of orcs while all others didn't fit at all.


    They fit more than adar that is just an elf
    Nope.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-11 at 10:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ya no you assuming that doesn't make it the case at all.
    Its no less of an assumption than yours, so

    again here's the actaul quote.
    If there is a different name for what he is, then he is not the proper orc, but a moriondor, the ones who gave origin to the actual orcs, again, wolf and dog scenario, that is my point for this entire time.

    He looking exactly like an elf and NOTHING, like an orc just further confirms that.
    Nope, Tolkien Has elves say orcs look like they could be savage and evil elves, Adar is closer to that then the oatmeal monsters.
    Except tolkien himself said orcs are not elvish, and time and time again say they are sallow or black skinned, fanged, crooked, have long arms, etc

    Nothing to do with Adar and more close to the ones in the movies and the show.

    ITs extremely funny how you nitpick what tolkien words you want to use. you are grasping hard on that passage while ignoring all the rest. cause if you use BOTH, it goes against your premise

    Though Going through how jackson Depicted them there are multiple different kinds of orcs from multiple different battles that are not Uruk hai's that are also just as tall as men like like the Morannon Orcs who jackson made him self not based off Tolkien. [

    Only the orcs that capture Frodo after the spider are seemingly smaller then men though Id have to rewatch all the movies to actually check that for sure.

    So at best Jackson ignored your description the majority of the time using it for just one or so group of orcs while all others didn't fit at all.
    Nope, he didn't ignore, he just portrayed different types, that there are many.

    And nope, you were wrong, Another example, The other orcs in Mordor were smaller, and Sam and Frodo were able to disguise themselves among then JUST FINE, There is smaller orcs in the mines of moria,, the ones travelling with the uruk-hai that catch the hobbits, there is the ones in goblintown from the hobbit movies, and the goblin king who is also fairly alike tolkien description being "massive".


    So yes, the orcs from jackson look more like the tolkien description, and adar is just an elf

    Nope.
    Thats just delusional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Its no less of an assumption than yours, so
    I don't have to assume any thing the show calls him and orc displays that he has orc like features with his black blood and directly states that there were century's between the first orcs showing up and that they bred and spread throughout the land.


    If there is a different name for what he is, then he is not the proper orc, but a moriondor, the ones who gave origin to the actual orcs, again, wolf and dog scenario, that is my point for this entire time.
    The show disagrees and calls him an orc, there's no getting around that.



    Except tolkien himself said orcs are not elvish, and time and time again say they are sallow or black skinned, fanged, crooked, have long arms, etc

    Nothing to do with Adar and more close to the ones in the movies and the show.

    ITs extremely funny how you nitpick what tolkien words you want to use. you are grasping hard on that passage while ignoring all the rest. cause if you use BOTH, it goes against your premise
    Yes Tolkin said in his notes said they weren't elvish, in later notes he did they could come from elves, in the works he published and his son published it says they came from elves. I have even said Adar doesn't fit the black skinned long armed ect description that you have been using nor does he fit the Mongol one but neither do the majority of jacksons orcs outside of 1 Group post frodo's capture.

    I am not nitpicking or ignoring any passages I have acknowledged multiple times that he went back and forth on there origin but the one he settled on in the later end of his notes, the one he published and the one his son published all make them elvish or a mix of elves and humans if you go off the note.

    YOU have been nitpicking and grasping To a single note to say they aren't elvish and ignoring all other works that say they are even if those works came after the note you want to use.



    Nope, he didn't ignore, he just portrayed different types, that there are many.

    And nope, you were wrong, Another example, The other orcs in Mordor were smaller, and Sam and Frodo were able to disguise themselves among then JUST FINE, There is smaller orcs in the mines of moria,, the ones travelling with the uruk-hai that catch the hobbits, there is the ones in goblintown from the hobbit movies, and the goblin king who is also fairly alike tolkien description being "massive".
    Same and frodo disguise them self's with the same type of orc as capture them, The mines of moria it's hard to get a good angle but some of them seem the same size as the humans both in the troll fight and when there encircled, The one's with the Uruk-hai when marry and pippin are captured are as tall as men when not crouching.

    So that's just the post spider orcs and the goblin town orcs out of what's likely 20 or so groups of orcs shown, and while the goblin town one's might fit visually, Jesus was every thing there an abomination.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The show disagrees and calls him an orc, there's no getting around that.
    Show call him Moriondor. Again, wolf dog scenario, you can call a wof a dog all you want

    And im not going to etertain the rest any further, cause again, is jsut nitpicking and derailing the discussion fromt he original point, that he looks exactly like an elf (even more than some of the elves in the show, and nothing like an orc, and the show/movie orcs are more close to what tolkien described than him, period.

    Same and frodo disguise them self's with the same type of orc as capture them,
    yes and? they disguise themselves AMONG other orcs with similar size. they even start a fight with the others.
    The mines of moria it's hard to get a good angle but some of them seem the same size as the humans both in the troll fight and when there encircled
    There is a few ones even smaller than men, there is close angle that show then very goblin-like(like the snaga), i think even Gandalf call then goblins, and goblins is the term in the hobbit books to describe the smaller orcs
    The one's with the Uruk-hai when marry and pippin are captured are as tall as men when not crouching.
    some of then are far smaller than the Uruk-hai, who had men height.

    So that's just the post spider orcs and the goblin town orcs out of what's likely 20 or so groups of orcs shown, and while the goblin town one's might fit visually, Jesus was every thing there an abomination.
    Point is: they look like an orc, to what tolkien described, WAY MORE than the elf called Adar., thats my point.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2023-02-11 at 11:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Show call him Moriondor. Again, wolf dog scenario, you can call a wof a dog all you want
    again the full quote you are apparently allergic to.

    Galadrial: You are one of them are you not? The Moriondor. The Sons of the Dark. The first Orcs.
    Adar: Uruk. We prefer "Uruk."

    And im not going to etertain the rest any further, cause again, is jsut nitpicking and derailing the discussion fromt he original point, that he looks exactly like an elf (even more than some of the elves in the show, and nothing like an orc, and the show/movie orcs are more close to what tolkien described than him, period.[Q
    It is nitpicking, its you grabbing that one word and ignoring the rest of what being said because it doesn't agree with you Just as you have nitpicked that one note about the orcs origin and ignored all later notes and what both Tolkien and his son have actually published.


    yes and? they disguise themselves AMONG other orcs with similar size. they even start a fight with the others.
    They fake a fight with each other not other orcs and then slip away when the task master breaks it up.

    There is a few ones even smaller than men, there is close angle that show then very goblin-like(like the snaga), i think even Gandalf call then goblins, and goblins is the term in the hobbit books to describe the smaller orcs
    There are one's smaller then men, But one's the same size as men are not a rare expectations like you tried to point to earlier and the majority of Jacksons (and RoP) orcs are the size of men or mabye bigger making the whole size thing pointless.

    Point is: they look like an orc, to what tolkien described, WAY MORE than the elf called Adar., thats my point.
    If your only going off of size sure Jackson used orcs that fit the size all of twice and used jagged tweeth, he didn't use dark skin slanted eyes or elongated arms, He also added a ton of characteristic Tolkien.

    while Adar is also far from the listed characteristic he fits a evil and savage elf fine.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-12 at 12:03 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    again the full quote you are apparently allergic to.
    Wolves are the "first dogs" too, doesn't mean wolves are actually dogs.

    If he was just an normal orc, there is no fucking point to have a different term for him, and he would look different, either way, is besides the point since he does not look nothing like an orc.

    They fake a fight with each other not other orcs and then slip away when the task master breaks it up.
    Yes, and it is show how the other orcs around then have similar height
    There are one's smaller then men, But one's the same size as men are not a rare expectation like you tried to point to earlier and the majority of Jacksons (and RoP) orcs are the size of men or mabye bigger making the whole size thing pointless.
    Having ones the size of men does not contradict shit here, you know that right? - that the movies portrayed of orcs more faithful than adar who looks like an elf - the size is not pointless because bigger orcs only came to be later. just like the name Uruk, that the show make sure to mess up.

    If your only going off of size sure Jackson used orcs that fit the size all of twice and used jagged tweeth, he didn't use dark skin slanted eyes or elongated arms, He also added a ton of characteristic Tolkien.
    [I]"if you only going to use x" [/I... ]coming from someone who only want to use one bit that some elves though they were elves going savage that can mean fuck all and not that they look like Adar

    And there is orcs with dark skin(not just the uruk-hai, orcs in mordor had black skin and were not made by saruman) and slanted eyes in the movies. Yes, he add different traits on his orcs, and he explain why, never deny that.

    while Adar is also far from the listed characteristic he fits a evil and savage elf fine.
    Evil? yeah, savage? not at all, and again the point is he look exactly like an elf, unlike the orcs show in the show and the movies. you are taking the quote and assuming it means they still retain ALL of their elvish characterises, when story tells they would not, see Gollun being corrupted, he was hobbit-ish but didn't look like a proper hobbit. It makes way more sense to assume Melkor, someone far stronger than the one ring, would corrupt worse than the one ring did to a hobbit, and they would not look like adar after the corruption. you can either put this as another shit they messed up like magic mithrill.

    Nobody with the head in the right place can lok at him and say 'yep thats an orc, this will put orcs in a good light"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Show call him Moriondor. Again, wolf dog scenario, you can call a wof a dog all you want
    You are the one calling a wolf a dog. The show sets him up as an Orc. I provide the quotes earlier in the discussion for you to go back and see. You are the one that keeps trying to call him something else for whatever reason. Rings of Power invented the concept, and word, of Moriondor as it only appears in Rings of Power.

    So it is silly to ignore what the show is calling him in one instance and accept it in the other.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Nobody with the head in the right place can lok at him and say 'yep thats an orc, this will put orcs in a good light"
    And yet you said he looks just like an Elf. Looking like an elf would put any dark and twisted being in a better light. We already have examples of this in Tolkien as there are shape shifters. Sauron took on a "fair visage" when he went to the elves as Annatar. Do you think he would have been received the same if he was ugly? Have you never encountered the concept of people being treated better based on their looks or clothing?
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    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Wolves are the "first dogs" too, doesn't mean wolves are actually dogs.

    If he was just an normal orc, there is no fucking point to have a different term for him, and he would look different, either way, is besides the point since he does not look nothing like an orc.
    I've been ignoring the wolves are the first dogs as its just stupid and is unneeded fluff but fine lets go over it.

    Wolves were not the first dogs, wolf and dogs are two distinct lines in canines with dogs coming from a now extinct line of canine as dogs genetics deviated and replaced them, The closest wolfs and dogs come generically are grey wolfs and that is not because they had the same ancestor its from domestic dogs breeding into the wolf line.

    You continuously saying wolves are the first dogs is like saying lions are the first first cougar ignoring that they are two totally different lines with in the Feline family, it is also even stupider as Dogs have have such a mass variation in look size and shape that if you applied there structure to the orcs you'd be saying a great Dane isn't a dog Because it lives in a newfoundland with a bunch of newfy's and they don't look the same.

    So in short, your point is stupid and ignorant and the show still disagrees with you and says he's an orc.

    Having ones the size of men does not contradict shit here, you know that right? - that the movies portrayed of orcs more faithful than adar who looks like an elf - the size is not pointless because bigger orcs only came to be later. just like the name Uruk, that the show make sure to mess up.
    having the majority of them being the size of men absolutely contradicts you saying ones the size of men were a "outlier, a rare exception".


    [I]"if you only going to use x" [/I... ]coming from someone who only want to use one bit that some elves though they were elves going savage that can mean fuck all and not that they look like Adar
    Adar fit's one mention of orcs, Jacksons fit another, Both are far from all the characteristics Tolkien used with Jacksons deviating further as Tolkien applied human features looks to his orcs even comparing them to a specific people while Jackson made them pure monsters.


    Evil? yeah, savage? not at all, and again the point is he look exactly like an elf, unlike the orcs show in the show and the movies. you are taking the quote and assuming it means they still retain ALL of their elvish characterises,
    Nope never said any thing about them keeping all characteristics just that they were recognizable as coming from elves, Black blood gaunt face questionable marking that could be scars or skin defects fit that even if its not perfect.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-12 at 01:30 AM.
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    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Wolves were not the first dogs, wolf and dogs are two distinct lines in canines with dogs coming from a now extinct line of canine as dogs genetics deviated and replaced them
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleist...e_domestic_dog

    It is believed that domesticated dogs share a common wolf ancestor. That ancestor is not modern wolves but a now extinct one.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2023-02-12 at 01:48 AM.
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    Aren't wolves genetically close enough to dogs that they can actually interbreed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Aren't wolves genetically close enough to dogs that they can actually interbreed?
    Yes, but they are different species, They came to be from the same lineage of the Pleistocene wolf

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Wolves were not the first dogs, wolf and dogs are two distinct lines in canines with dogs coming from a now extinct line of canine as dogs genetics deviated and replaced them, The closest wolfs and dogs come generically are grey wolfs and that is not because they had the same ancestor its from domestic dogs breeding into the wolf line.
    I obviously tried to be as common as possible with this because general people do not have common knowledge about the palaeontologist story of the canis genre, and im not as pedant to assume everyone should know this.(despite you trying to correct me on this one, paleontologists call the line that gave birth to the today wolves and dogs aas "pleistocene wolf, so me saying wolf is not wrong).

    Its just to demonstrate how you need to have a prior, and different species, to give birth to a new one, so the family tree can diverge, and it takes thousand of years of speciation to happen.

    If we use this as an example, the Moridian would be the ancestors of what we know as the species of orcs, even if people call then "first orcs' they are not the race/specie orc, just like we can call "the first dogs" the ancestor of the dog(one of the pleistocene wolves lineage) but they are not, Canis familiaris.


    having the majority of them being the size of men absolutely contradicts you saying ones the size of men were a "outlier, a rare exception".
    Nope, because in the third age, the time the trilogy happens, we already have plenty of uruks-hais breed with humans by Sauron and Saruman and orcs who grow bigger in Mordor, this is explained by Tolkien.

    Adar fit's one mention of orcs
    Nope, it does not, its just you using confirmation bias and ignoring the rest of the information, using then separate instead of together as they should be. Just because the elves saw then and said "those could be elves becoming evil and savage" does not mean, in the slightest, they are not, also, sallow, crooked, fanged, smaller and with longer arms. Its literally you removing all the characteristics that make an orc an orc, and using the ones you like to say he fit ONE(being evil) and think you won the argument by "numbers of box checked".

    Despite this also you being dramatically verbatim, cause, what evil LOOKS like? this is literally you assuming that when those elves saw the orcs those orcs would look exactly the same as normal elves, like Adar,, but with a mean attitude, despise using the tolkien corruption and evil as example, they would not, as example,. Gollun, definitely look like a hobbit that went evil and savage. But he is not like Sam or Frodo, at all.

    Well i guess when people see the southlands they will say they look orcish because they are humans that went savage and evil

    Point still stand, Adar is 100% an elf in appearance, and the orcs in the movies and in the show are more tolkien accurate than him by far.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2023-02-12 at 02:57 AM.

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    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleist...e_domestic_dog

    It is believed that domesticated dogs share a common wolf ancestor. That ancestor is not modern wolves but a now extinct one.
    ugh Taxonomy is a slog.

    All domesticated dogs share a common ancestor, rather that Ancestor was a "wolf" is in debate, some say they fall into Canis lupus other says they don't, what is known is that based on there genes wolfs and dog's distinct lineage and what overlap they do have is likely from domesticated dogs breeding with wolfs and not from them sharing an ancestor. there are sematic arguments about rather the Paleolithic dog was a "dog "wolf" or other unnamed canine but it is accepted that dog's do not come from the same Lineage as wolfs just like say coyotes or jackals don't.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_dog
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    but it is accepted that dog's do not come from the same Lineage as wolfs just like say coyotes or jackals don't.
    It isn't complicated at all. There are wolves in the lineage of domesticated dogs. From the Wikipedia article I previously linked to:

    DNA sequences show that all ancient and modern dogs share a common ancestry and descended from an ancient, extinct wolf population which was distinct from the modern wolf lineage
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't complicated at all. There are wolves in the lineage of domesticated dogs. From the Wikipedia article I previously linked to:

    DNA sequences show that all ancient and modern dogs share a common ancestry and descended from an ancient, extinct wolf population which was distinct from the modern wolf lineage
    Yes quite, as I said "there are sematic arguments about rather the Paleolithic dog was a "dog "wolf" or other unnamed canine"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Yes, but they are different species, They came to be from the same lineage of the Pleistocene wolf


    I obviously tried to be as common as possible with this because general people do not have common knowledge about the palaeontologist story of the canis genre, and im not as pedant to assume everyone should know this.(despite you trying to correct me on this one, paleontologists call the line that gave birth to the today wolves and dogs aas "pleistocene wolf, so me saying wolf is not wrong).
    See above for Taxonomy nonsense


    If we use this as an example, the Moridian would be the ancestors of what we know as the species of orcs, even if people call then "first orcs' they are not the race/specie orc, just like we can call "the first dogs" the ancestor of the dog(one of the pleistocene wolves lineage) but they are not, Canis familiaris.
    See the above link in the Taxonomy nonsense Paleolithic dog are called Canis familiaris



    Nope, because in the third age, the time the trilogy happens, we already have plenty of uruks-hais breed with humans by Sauron and Saruman and orcs who grow bigger in Mordor, this is explained by Tolkien.
    unless you want to say every single orc on screen is a uruks-hais beyond the post spider group and goblin town the majority are still mansized.


    Nope, it does not, its just you using confirmation bias and ignoring the rest of the information, using then separate instead of together as they should be. Just because the elves saw then and said "those could be elves becoming evil and savage" does not mean, in the slightest, they are not, also, sallow, crooked, fanged, smaller and with longer arms. Its literally you removing all the characteristics that make an orc an orc, and using the ones you like to say he fit ONE(being evil) and think you won the argument by "numbers of box checked".
    Not ignoring any thing I'm applying all of Tolkins descriptions of orcs and finding both Adar and jacksons wanting as both leave out more of what Tolkien said then they include and jackson adds on new bits that Tolkien never described.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Yes quite, as I said "there are sematic arguments about rather the Paleolithic dog was a "dog "wolf" or other unnamed canine"
    There is a difference between the Pleistocene wolf and the Paleolithic dog. It might be best if you just drop the subject because you keep confusing things. It isn't disputed that domesticated dogs have a wolf in their lineage. They are relatives to modern wolves after all. What is disputed is which wolf sub species and when the divergence and domestication happened as there are indications of multiple domestication events.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post

    See the above link in the Taxonomy nonsense Paleolithic dog are called Canis familiaris
    You mean the one bit that literally says -> Canis c.f. familiaris(where c.f. is a Latin term meaning uncertain)<- ?, uncertain as it he is not sure?

    Either way, the paleolithic dog, would not be Canis familiaris, the ones we have today, since the ones we have today had breed with other wolves along hundreds of years, with many cases/examples of domestication.

    unless you want to say every single orc on screen is a uruks-hais beyond the post spider group and goblin town the majority are still mansized.
    You will need to ask then about that, cause, for all we know, they could be.

    You still keep ignoring the others ones i gave examples of, like there is only one, thus confirming your argument somehow.

    Not ignoring any thing I'm applying all of Tolkins descriptions of orcs and finding both Adar and jacksons wanting as both leave out more of what Tolkien said then they include and jackson adds on new bits that Tolkien never described.
    Nope you are not, because Adar look 100% an elf with a scar on his face, he does not look savage, crooked, smaller, sallow, dark skinned, long-armed and fanged, those are all traits you can find in orcs from the Jackson movies.

    Your best bet here, is to ignore SEVEN key traits of the orc race, described by tolkien, to say Adar is an orc, just because he check the "evil-looking" just because he look gaunt with a scar, despite also he looking more like a proper elf than a lot of the actual elves in the show.

    Despite the fact that for evil to have a "look" he would not look like Adar(100% an elf), but it would be something akin to to what happened to Gollum, an evil and savage hobbit, that does not look like a hobbit

    "well, he looks evil" by this argument alone, any southlander would be an orc, cause they look evil and savage.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2023-02-12 at 03:47 AM.

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    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    "well, he looks evil" by this argument alone, any southlander would be an orc, cause they look evil and savage.
    The show hasn't established any Southlander as being an Orc. The show has established this specific "evil elf" as being an Orc. They created a word to call him an Orc. He identifies as an Orc. He bleeds like an Orc. He leads Orcs. I really don't see why you are arguing against the facts of show. Tolkien never described the first elves to fall to corruption so it is impossible for you to say it ignores seven key traits of Tolkien.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You will need to ask then about that, cause, for all we know, they could be.
    *shrug* fine there all uruks-hais's and we haven't even been talking about proper orcs at all.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    This whole conversation feels like:

    https://youtu.be/XEL65gywwHQ
    Never clicked on it, so, whatever you tried to tell, never reached me.

    However...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Yeah, especially because they are arguing with the wind. The data was collected. People who matter to the business made their decisions weeks or months ago.

    There is no developmental executive thinking about SpaghettiMonk's opinion on orcs and elves on a subforum while sitting on their golden toilet.
    pwnd
    Last edited by Fabinas; 2023-02-12 at 05:29 AM. Reason: ... and fixt
    /spit@Blizzard

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