1. #9261
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We're all wasting our time engaging here. That's all this place is for. If not that, why else would we even be here?
    Personally it’s a great place for me to connect with other Tolkien fans who also hated the show. Haven’t yet met one who truly liked it.

    But it’s gotten sidetracked by the white knights.

  2. #9262
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Starts on Minute 15 pretty much. It's from the official Podcats with poor Felicia Day.

    They speak about how the people of middle-earth could make such a "devil's bargain" of accepting the rings and that they would only do so if they were desperate. Otherwise "who would fall for that".

    It shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of the text. Annatar has never been perceived as an evil figure before he was revealed as Sauron. That is the entire point of his disguise and why it is a big deal when he looses the power of disguising himself.
    His gifts were seen as nothing but well-meaning gifts until the truth was revealed. No one made a devil's bargain here... they innocently fell for a trick. Not because they are stupid but because they simply did not know better and they do not have the same level of base suspicion that the modern person has.

    That is what I mean: The showrunners were unable to imagine a person without this ingrained suspicion, so they had to fill what they thought of as a plothole or a failure of Tolkien narrative.
    The source material they're talking about is a few lines in LotR. You're wrong about Annatar as both Gil-galad and Galadriel were suspicious of him from the start but that's irrelevant as Annatar isn't even mentioned in the texts they have a license for. What they say is they started thinking of motives, looked at how the three Elven rings were used for preservation and the fading of the Elves, and decided they were good aspects to use to put some drama in the story they were telling. Obviously I didn't watch the influencer you linked because I don't want YouTube thinking I'm interested in that sort of culture warrior bullshit, so I don't know how much you got from that video and how much you made up, but your take that the showrunners thought Tolkien was a bad writer because he wasn't taught stranger-danger as a child is unhinged. It's fine to not like what they wrote (I'm not in love with how little interaction there was between Sauron and Celebrimbor) but why make up bullshit?

    Just because Tolkien revised some things does not mean that he would be fine with someone rewriting entire characters and motivations. I did not know him personally, so who knows. Since we cannot know, I will take what is written as the canon, since these are Tolkiens words. Defending some amateur showrunners with "Maybe Tolkien would have changed this as well" is weak.

    You are right that it would be possible expand on Tolkien's writing especially in this very open area. The problem is that these showrunners simply do not have the skill or appreciation for the world to do it. Jackson did. Hence why he succeeded where these guys fail.
    Wow this is two very contradictory stances. First up I like the Jackson movies, but they absolutely butchered what Tolkien wrote in LotR. You're right that we don't know what Tolkien would have thought about someone taking a tiny sliver of his text and expanding it, but there's a letter that is extremely critical (though overall polite) about a treatment for a LotR movie where he takes displeasure at proposals very similar to what happened with the Jackson trilogy.

    I mentioned this before: The skill needed for an author of fantasy media is the ability to create a world and LIVE in it. You need to be able to leave our reality behind to write about how these fantasy worlds work, how the people in them think. Only then can you put it into words that pull a reader into their story and their world.
    The best authors of fantasy all have this skill (Tolkien, Lucas, Martin, Abercrombie to name a few).
    If you do not possess this skill your fanatasy world will end up as nothing but a reflection of our reality with people thinking how we are thinking, despite the world around them not having the implications to make such a thinking possible.
    I honestly don't see the world in RoP as a reflection of our own. There are severe discrepancies with the events Tolkien wrote about in his unpublished works but the actual setting feels extremely Tolkien, pretending the people who made it didn't appreciate what he wrote is nonsense, it absolutely shines through despite the restrictions with licensing and their inexperience with creating a show like this.

  3. #9263
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Lets take the example of grass since you seem capable of at least wrapping your mind around that one. Someone who is colorblind might not see grass as being green, but that doesn't change the fact that in reality grass reflects light at the wavelength that is universally defined as "green". Their perception might be different because their eyes don't read that wavelength, but reality itself doesn't change. There aren't two realities.
    Right.

    And let's contextualize the 'irrational' things you have a problem with. Is it factual that people must have beliefs that are externalized as rational in our world? No. Because plenty of beliefs and opinions are held in the realm of irrationality, or in things that can't be explained in rational terms. Religious belief is one example; you can't rationalize and prove any god exists, but you can still hold a belief in one if that is what you choose to believe. And the concept is only as ridiculous as you percieve it to be - do you believe all people who believe in a theistic religion to be irrational and must be called out for having 'irrational' beliefs? I hope not.


    Nothing in that analogy corresponds to anything I've been arguing. Pineapple can be put on pizza. Some people like it, others don't. No issues there.
    Unless someone gives a reason for why they like or don't like it that you don't deem rational. Ultimately it wouldn't matter, since it's still contextually whether someone likes it or not, and you're right to not have any issues of it regardless of anyone's reasoning. It's really not anyone's concern, right?

    A more appropriate analogy using this framework would be if someone said "I don't like pineapples, therefore I know I'm not going to like that pepperoni pizza that has no pineapples on it". Are you getting it now? Two unconnected things? A dislike for pineapples being used as an excuse to dislike something that one can unequivocally say has no pineapples? You can dislike pepperoni pizza as well, that's not the problem, but the disconnect is in the WHY.
    And ultimately, it doesn't matter or concern us as to why that person chooses to not like pepperoni pizza for those reasons. We aren't that person. We aren't dictating why they should or shouldn't like something for whatever rational-or-irrational reason they have.

    If you are genuinely curious why they expressed an 'irrational opinion that has no connections', then it would be more sensible to open a line of dialogue and ask them to elaborate their position; not just assume their entire opinion is irrational based on what little you understand of it and go on the attack. And that's why I spoke out in the first place; as an attempt to provide some precedence and insight on how fans might connect the Promo and the series in ways you may not have understood there to be any connections. I genuinely am not expressing 'what fans should like/act'.

    You're right. There is a level of irrationality to participating in these sorts of online discussions because 99% of the time there is no resolution and no one really changes their mind. I'm not above admitting that. Just like Spaghetti did, I too recognize that everyone (including myself) can act irrationally at times, but that was never the issue to begin with.
    Perhaps not what it begins with, but ultimately what it almost always ends with. I'm glad you do acknowledge that there is a level of irrationality to this type of discussion. I want to make sure we have some understanding of a common ground, and not just be arguing for the sake of it. As I said, I understand the sentiment you may have to have issues with what others are saying and how they can perceptionally be considered irrational, but I want to make it clear that these issues aren't in the realm of external reality. There is no reality where someone is not allowed to express a perceptively irrational opinion, and must be called out for it. Our reality accepts the irrational opinion of someone who doesn't want to even try Pepperoni Pizza because they had a bad experience with Pineapple Pizza. It may be irrational because it truly is, or there may be a reason which hasn't been properly communicated in a rational way; like maybe the person just doesn't like pizza in general and pineapple was just an excuse given. It may merely be a byproduct of cognitive bias. Either way, there is no inherent problem with the opinion itself, given that it isn't a statement that changes objective reality.


    Yes and no. As I've said time and time again, I have nothing against people liking the show or disliking the show. But like I said before, people generally are bad at explaining WHY they don't like something and often times don't know the difference between stating their opinion and trying to make a statement of fact. For instance (at the risk of opening another can of worms) when someone says "the acting is bad", that's not an opinion like "I didn't like the acting" would be, it's a statement of fact that SHOULD be backed up or just rephrased. Not everything about the arts is subjective. If it were, there's be no such thing as good or skilled actors, for example.
    Then this is more an issue of semantics and miscommunication than anything. It isn't really a problem of 'irrationality', rather the things you expect people to say aren't being communicated properly, for whatever reason. And part of that comes from people expressing their thoughts based on feelings, rather than internalizing and rationalizing what exactly they like/dislike about something. And that's absolutely normal.

    Like if we have this conversation drawn out any longer, I might personally end up being caught up emotional and make arguments or defend arguments that I personally don't even agree with, simply because I end up being defensive or feel there is a particular point to argue for the sake of 'winning'. That is irrational, and it is human behaviour. When feelings get flared, they will influence how we communicate.

    And overall, I think it's fine to argue and be irrational, given that much of what we are discussing is very personal to each individual in different ways which might not be completely expressed in the most rational ways. If there is something particularly egregious, then sure, pointing it out and having a discussion can be fine. But overall, no, it is not considered a rational thing to 'call people out' for their opinions being ridiculous; because that is ultimately a subjective thing altogether. I might suggest asking for elaboration, if you really are looking for a rational explanation in good faith.

    Again, I will point to the example of the irrationality of 'calling out' people having religious beliefs because it can't be externally rationalize in reality. It's basically a form of censorship and gatekeeping. This is where I feel the argument you presented is fundamentally flawed.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-02-18 at 01:11 AM.

  4. #9264
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    Personally it’s a great place for me to connect with other Tolkien fans who also hated the show. Haven’t yet met one who truly liked it.

    But it’s gotten sidetracked by the white knights.
    That is something funny, no one RLY liked this show, no one, most hated and some think it was ok, because the scenario and CGI that is indeed pretty, some enjoyed to pass the time but its not something they would ever watch again. People who said they did were on the spit of those who didn't like it.

    Its not going to be a show where people will remember good moments or amazing fights or cool performances, is a show that you will remember to mock at it, make fun of it with friends of how bad it is. Like now in this thread, no one is going to talk good, or remember great moments, some people will say they watched and its ok, or it was awful, and move on.

    Every time i have a dnd session someone bring up some dumb shit that happen in the show and we laugh our ass of from it, and this is actually what the show will be remembered for a failure, a mockery and people making fun of it, for ages to come.

    When people say "you don't chose your legacy" this is it, this is their legacy

  5. #9265
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    When people say "you don't chose your legacy" this is it, this is their legacy
    The amusing part is you, and others, are choosing the show as your own legacy as well. There is no reason to hold onto hate. Let it go. Are you telling me that you and your friends have nothing better to talk about then a terrible show?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #9266
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    No one is "holding onto hate".

    Its just that is funny to make fun of bad stuff, and the show is that bad that we can bring anything up from it and laugh. Especially when someone do some dumb stuff int he campaign.

    Same way, to this very day, we laugh our ass off when we remember the batman suit with nipples

  7. #9267
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    No one is "holding onto hate".
    Constantly talking about it says otherwise. Just like you called She-Hulk bad in another thread but said you would gladly watch it for a third time. You seem to like hate-watching and surrounding you with discussions on those things.

    There are topics in this thread that keep getting discussed and some even appeared prior to the show premiering. The same people are involved. Some of these knew they wouldn't like the show before it premiered, watched it anyways, and still discuss how much they hate it. There are plenty of people that hold on to hate whether or not they can admit it to themselves.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #9268
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    She-hulk is another show and another scenario, there is stuff there that i enjoyed even if it was bad, its guilty fun, i have no problem or shame to say i liked something that was bad, i liked early seasons of The flash in CW, but im not a hypocrite and can see how bad she-hulk and the flash were, and i can call out/criticize when there is shit on it.

    Rings of power is another level of awfulness, and the enjoyment about RoP is not in watching (cause i would never watch this shit again) but in making fun of it, discussing how bad it was, and how could be better, and see how desperate people can get to defend the indefensible

    - - - Updated - - -

    Not quoting cause mmochampion is fucked on chrome, and i can't quote or edit comments for some reason.

  9. #9269
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Rings of power is another level of awfulness, and the enjoyment about RoP is not in watching (cause i would never watch this shit again) but in making fun of it
    So it is about not letting go. You get enjoyment out of hating on it. Lol.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #9270
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So it is about not letting go. You get enjoyment out of hating on it. Lol.
    Its just cathartic, and again, is fun to engage with other people to make fun of it, you can call all you want but there is no rules against it so we are going to keep doing it

    tip: If people didn't try to defend the shit things that happened, this thread would be way more empty.

  11. #9271
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Its just cathartic, and again, is fun to engage with other people to make fun of it, you can call all you want but there is no rules against it so we are going to keep doing it

    tip: If people didn't try to defend the shit things that happened, this thread would be way more empty.
    I am angry and I'm ok with being angry. Let's say every week someone was sneaking into the Louvre and destroying a painting. Fine arts critics would want to know what was destroyed, and they would be upset about it. That's kind of how I feel about this series.

  12. #9272
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    tip: If people didn't try to defend the shit things that happened, this thread would be way more empty.
    It is crazy how you are blaming those who don't hate the show. If those who didn't like the show stop discussing it then this thread would have way less posts. You can't actually find something that you enjoy to be cathartic? Why is it that you imply you, and others, can only find relief when hating on something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    I am angry and I'm ok with being angry. Let's say every week someone was sneaking into the Louvre and destroying a painting. Fine arts critics would want to know what was destroyed, and they would be upset about it. That's kind of how I feel about this series.
    The amusing part is you are the one sneaking in every week in your example. The first season was over months ago and yet here you are still actively participating in something that makes you angry. Why not let go and finding something that doesn't make you angry?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #9273
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    I am angry and I'm ok with being angry. Let's say every week someone was sneaking into the Louvre and destroying a painting. Fine arts critics would want to know what was destroyed, and they would be upset about it. That's kind of how I feel about this series.
    Well that's just daft. It's more like someone made a diorama based on the Mona Lisa and you're constantly crying about how much you miss the painting despite it still hanging in the Louvre and millions of prints existing all around the world.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Its just cathartic, and again, is fun to engage with other people to make fun of it, you can call all you want but there is no rules against it so we are going to keep doing it

    tip: If people didn't try to defend the shit things that happened, this thread would be way more empty.
    The thing is that only works if it's utterly irredeemably rubbish and that's not how it turned out, hence we've had pages of people desperately trying to ignore the fact that it was considered successful and plenty of people enjoyed it.

  14. #9274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The thing is that only works if it's utterly irredeemably rubbish and that's not how it turned out, hence we've had pages of people desperately trying to ignore the fact that it was considered successful and plenty of people enjoyed it.
    No, it was a failure. And not, there is no plenty on that.

    no matter if it made 15th position in a top 15th that only cover the US views, i know some people like to think that USA is the bellybutton of the world, but isn't, it is a failure of a show.

    And that is why they are going to push back more one year and replace shit, because it was a dumpsterfire
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2023-02-19 at 08:05 AM.

  15. #9275
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    No, it was a failure. And not, there is no plenty on that.

    no matter if it made 15th position in a top 15th that only cover the US views, i know people that like in the USA think they are the bellybutton of the world, but they aren't, and it is a failure of a show.

    And that is why they are going to push back more one year and replace shit, because it was a dumpsterfire
    Ignore the drones, they are little better than bad AI made by amazon. Like you said no one is coming to this thread to discuss amazing scenes like in other show/movie threads, or are hyping up about potential moments coming in the future seasons. Instead you get mockery of scenes like Galadriel getting REALLY excited riding a horse, the terrible sword training with the Numenoreans, or the "I HAVE A TEMPEST WITH ME!"/"Give me the meat and give it to me raw" lines.

    If it were just a random/new franchise I will admit the dialogue is bad enough I might get the same enjoyment out of it that I got out of The Room.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2023-02-19 at 08:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  16. #9276
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    No, it was a failure. And not, there is no plenty on that.

    no matter if it made 15th position in a top 15th that only cover the US views, i know some people like to think that USA is the bellybutton of the world, but isn't, it is a failure of a show.

    And that is why they are going to push back more one year and replace shit, because it was a dumpsterfire
    Point well proven :-)

    Just checking checking though - you do know the top 15 Nielsen reports isn't just out of 15, right? They track all the shows in that category and just show the top 15. Think of music charts, a song that sits at number 10 in the top ten hasn't come last out of a group of 10 songs, it's also beaten all the other songs that didn't make it I to the top 10.

  17. #9277
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Point well proven :-)

    Just checking checking though - you do know the top 15 Nielsen reports isn't just out of 15, right?
    do you also know they are only counting streaming only stuff right? thats why House of the dragon isn't there, and is also only counting original stuff, AND only for us numbers, do you also realize that right?

    :^)

  18. #9278
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    do you also know they are only counting streaming only stuff right? thats why House of the dragon isn't there, and is also only counting original stuff, AND only for us numbers, do you also realize that right?

    :^)
    Yes, I know the chart is for comparable products in their primary market.

  19. #9279
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I see we're now on the "real fans didn't enjoy this, nobody did, just white knights" delusion now. Classic.
    Quote the part where someone said anything about real fans.
    Such discussion gets bombarded with, dare I say, "hate drones" until it is thoroughly chased away.
    Prove it.

    Show the discussions where people were discussing the amazing things that happened in the show, the ones they were rly hyped about it, and show people "bombarding then" and "chasing then away"

    Oh, of course you won't find that, because that is once again you making stuff up, pretending to have moral highground

    Some of you are just deeply maladjusted individuals. .
    Projecting much?

  20. #9280
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I see we're now on the "real fans didn't enjoy this, nobody did, just white knights" delusion now. Classic.

    Also love the "drones" comment, and how nobody comes here to discuss scenes, or future seasons. The fact there is no self awareness as to why that is, is quite astounding. Such discussion gets bombarded with, dare I say, "hate drones" until it is thoroughly chased away.

    Some of you are just deeply maladjusted individuals. Refusal to accept reality, being "angry" still over a TV show, moving of goalposts to keep reality away, gatekeeping who is a "real" fan, or calling someone that may have overall liked the series "little better than bad AI made by Amazon." Because someone not utterly hating the show must be related to Amazon, right? So very sad that people have to delude themselves to such an extent over a piece of media.
    And now we’re at the point where I can turn it around and say the people who come here to hate on the haters are just maladjusted individuals who can’t just be happy and blah blah blah your posts are meaningless.

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