1. #9301
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,706
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    As a example: if in helm's deep the humans only won because the elves had shining magic bows that shot orcs by the hundreds, that would be bastardizing.
    The humans in the movie only won because the elves were there and all the elves died. They were injected into the plot for no reason and screwed up the lore of the books for no reason. Shouldn't they have been fighting Dol Guldur? You, and others, rationalize it away as acceptable because you liked the movies. You rationalize that Rings of Power is bad because you don't like the show.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #9302
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Bastardizing lore means reducing the quality of it, not just implying that the lore changes.
    The films very much reduced the quality of the lore as well as shifting the characters, focus and core of the story from what Tolkien intended to what would work well for Hollywood.

    Like, is there any compelling reason why they couldn't just give the two Durins different names? It sure doesn't seem to enhance the show's plot any by having them both be Durin. If anything, it's arguably more confusing.
    In the little bit of lore they have to go on Durin III was king during Sauron's asssult on Eregion and Durin IV was king during the War of the Last Alliance. With the timeline being compressed to have those events happen within a human lifetime the options were to have them as father and son or be the same person.

  3. #9303
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,706
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    In the little bit of lore they have to go on Durin III was king during Sauron's asssult on Eregion and Durin IV was king during the War of the Last Alliance. With the timeline being compressed to have those events happen within a human lifetime the options were to have them as father and son or be the same person.
    It would have been hilarious if Amazon had the same actor and one episode or season killed off Durin III to have him reappear as Durin IV for the next one.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #9304
    Titan Orby's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Under the stars
    Posts
    13,237
    I am not sure what's more crazy to see every time I come to this thread...

    1) The people constantly coming here to hate on the show instead of moving on and must try and convince others that their hate is legit and that they are right.
    OR
    2) The people who are defending the show so much that they are actually trying to bring the original trilogy movies down to a 'they were actually shit' level of copium to try and defend a very average show.

    I come here every time to see if there is any new Tolkien related updates, only to find a poor excuse for two sided arguments. You all need to chill the hell out.
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

  5. #9305
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,706
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    2) The people who are defending the show so much that they are actually trying to bring the original trilogy movies down to a 'they were actually shit' level of copium to try and defend a very average show.
    You forgot number 3. Those that come to the thread to insult others with made up things. Has anyone actually called the Peter Jackson work shit in this thread?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #9306
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    25,893
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Bastardizing lore means reducing the quality of it, not just implying that the lore changes.

    Peter Jackson's trilogy and RoP both involve lore changes to Tolkien'a work. The difference is PJ's handling of changes generally do not reduce Tolkien's original works, rather it changes for a different experience that is on a similar level
    Similar level seems like a hell of a stretch. Gimli with stuff “nobody throws a dwarf”, Legolas elephant surfing or other general character changes that change there personality’s in rather big ways.

    Some one posted a quote for ever ago from Tolkien about how he thought the first movie idea that never got made missed the point of his works and instead played up parts that didn’t matter to the core of what he was going for and the Jackson movies seem like a perfect example of Tolkiens complaint and we know that his son thought similarly.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #9307
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I am not sure what's more crazy to see every time I come to this thread...

    1) The people constantly coming here to hate on the show instead of moving on and must try and convince others that their hate is legit and that they are right.
    OR
    2) The people who are defending the show so much that they are actually trying to bring the original trilogy movies down to a 'they were actually shit' level of copium to try and defend a very average show.

    I come here every time to see if there is any new Tolkien related updates, only to find a poor excuse for two sided arguments. You all need to chill the hell out.
    This.
    I kinda just wanna know if they're gonna make something that is at least worth pirating.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  8. #9308
    Titan Orby's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Under the stars
    Posts
    13,237
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You forgot number 3. Those that come to the thread to insult others with made up things. Has anyone actually called the Peter Jackson work shit in this thread?
    I never said they did. I said to bring down that level. Thats not saying you are saying they are shit. Unless you openly admit the Rings of Power is shit.
    Last edited by Orby; 2023-05-02 at 05:09 PM.
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

  9. #9309
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Similar level seems like a hell of a stretch. Gimli with stuff “nobody throws a dwarf”, Legolas elephant surfing or other general character changes that change there personality’s in rather big ways.

    Some one posted a quote for ever ago from Tolkien about how he thought the first movie idea that never got made missed the point of his works and instead played up parts that didn’t matter to the core of what he was going for and the Jackson movies seem like a perfect example of Tolkiens complaint and we know that his son thought similarly.
    Some things can be considered bastardizing their characterization. Their lore isn't really affected by that though. Lore is history, and and the outcome of history doesn't change from them doing or saying these things.

    I'd agree it's bastardization of their characters though, if this is your point.

  10. #9310
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,706
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I never said they did. I said to bring down that level. Thats not saying you are saying they are shit. Unless you openly admit the Rings of Power is shit.
    How can you bring them down to a shit level without trying to say they are shit? Why would I have to admit the Rings of Power are shit in order for your claim to be true? I've never tried to bring down the Jackson works out of copium to defend Rings of Power.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #9311
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The films very much reduced the quality of the lore as well as shifting the characters, focus and core of the story from what Tolkien intended to what would work well for Hollywood.
    Case by case scenario yes. But overall, it keeps with the general plot is quite adequate. The lore is fairly well maintained outside of some character omissions and slight changes here and there.

    It isn't a completely different plot like what RoP has presented.

    In the little bit of lore they have to go on Durin III was king during Sauron's asssult on Eregion and Durin IV was king during the War of the Last Alliance. With the timeline being compressed to have those events happen within a human lifetime the options were to have them as father and son or be the same person.
    Or they could have given them different names and had younger Durin adopt the namesake upon coronation, like what happened to Prince Charles becoming King George VI.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-05-02 at 05:52 PM.

  12. #9312
    Titan Orby's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Under the stars
    Posts
    13,237
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How can you bring them down to a shit level without trying to say they are shit? Why would I have to admit the Rings of Power are shit in order for your claim to be true? I've never tried to bring down the Jackson works out of copium to defend Rings of Power.
    Then I wasnt talking to you lol. But there are defenders of the show who are. On this very page. :P
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

  13. #9313
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,706
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Then I wasnt talking to you lol. But there are defenders of the show who are. On this very page. :P
    You used "you" in response to me so it is a little strange how you keep backpedaling from the things you actually say. Can you point out where in this thread someone has said the peter jackson work was shit? I don't recall seeing someone say that or attempt to make that argument.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #9314
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    25,893
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Then I wasnt talking to you lol. But there are defenders of the show who are. On this very page. :P
    Even as some one who isn’t a fan of the Jackson movies (rotoscope for life) I’d find it hard to believe any one could honestly say they aren’t higher quality then RoP unless they were out right trolling.

    I personally don’t like the movies but they are still good movies where I like RoP more and it’s just a kinds Meh fantasy show at best.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #9315
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Case by case scenario yes. But overall, it keeps with the general plot is quite adequate. The lore is fairly well maintained outside of some character omissions and slight changes here and there.

    It isn't a completely different plot like what RoP has presented.
    It depends on what you think is important about the story. The movies did put the right people in the right places for the right events but it totally ignores Tolkien's focus on the four Hobbits' journey and the changes to characters make then almost unrecognisable.

    RoP is a much lower quality production but it feels much more firmly placed in Arda, and of course it only deviates from rough notes and unpublished (by Tolkien) contradictory accounts of the events. It doesn't distort a completed work Tolkien considered ready for the public (indeed the only work written about Arda he considered that way.)

    Or they could have given them different names and had younger Durin adopt the namesake upon coronation, like what happened to Prince Charles becoming King George VI.
    I think your woefully underestimating the capabilities of audiences if you think they can't understand a father and son having the same names.
    Last edited by Dhrizzle; 2023-05-02 at 06:25 PM.

  16. #9316
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,706
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Not everything is an opportunity to have a fucking argument. Read back what he said, and realise you're wrong on this. Fuck me... you're getting as bad all the miserable twats this sub-forum attracts. He literally says "Thats not saying you are saying they are shit."
    As you proceed to argue something. I asked if someone has made the claim that the Peter Jackson work was shit, what they stated in their OP, and they choose to change the pronoun to you for no reason. The implication from the context is clear.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #9317
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It depends on what you think is important about the story. The movies did put the right people in the right places for the right events but it totally ignores Tolkien's focus on the four Hobbits' journey and the changes to characters make then almost unrecognisable.

    RoP is a much lower quality production but it feels much more firmly placed in Arda, and of course it only deviates from rough notes and unpublished (by Tolkien) contradictory accounts of the events. It doesn't distort a completed work Tolkien considered ready for the public (indeed the only work written about Arda he considered that way.)
    I respectfully disagree. I don't share that same perspective about the Hobbit's journey. I didn't feel it was unrecognizable to the book lore. I do think that they all feel firmly planted in middle earth aesthetically.

    As per my argument, it isn't about whether it feels like it's Middle Earth or not, it's about what it does to the lore. Because I can talk about Shadows of Morder/War and say the same thing about them bastardizing lore, while still feeling like a Middle Earth game. It's got the aesthetics and the world building, but it completely disregards the lore. And that's okay, since they didn't set out to adhere to canon in the first place. It was still an entertaining game as long as you don't think too hard about the story.

    I see RoP in the same way, where I enjoy it for the creatures and the visuals and will keep watching for it. I like the aesthetics. But the lore is a mess.

    I think your woefully underestimating the capabilities of audiences if you think they can't understand a father and son having the same names.
    It's not whether the audience understands it or not, it's whether it has any value to the world building and lore.

    Is there any real reason they're both called Durin and not just given different names? Could you give a good reason why this needed to happen? It certainly doesn't add anything to RoP's drama by having them given the same name.

    And for anyone who does know the lore, the change is a much lesser experience with no real reason for it to change for the movie-going audience. It doesn't make the lore any more palettable than if they merely had different names.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-05-02 at 08:01 PM.

  18. #9318
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Imagine wasting time whining about other people whining


    Just because you did like it, doesn't change the fact this was a horrible show, lore/books or not.




    Facts show that more than half of the people who watch this shit didn't finish it; even when this is a free show in their prime accounts, your opinion don't change reality that this show failed hard


    Except all those good shows and movies that are faithful to the source material

    - - - Updated - - -



    I must be living in people heads rent-free as well for there to be so many people pissed that im still saying how bad the show was, and people can't accept that or let it go

    - - - Updated - - -



    That is literally bastardising the lore

    You can be serious by saying "what the showrunners did is what tolkien used to do all the time.''
    The show has had over 100 million viewers so far, thats more than most tv shows ever get and that number is still increasing so its just a simple fact the show was a success, you need to simply accept reality that most ppl who watched the show enjoyed it and dont care in the slightest about the show following the lore completely or not. Amazon have already stated the show as a success so you are not the one to tell ppl it isnt one.

    There is wasting some time of a forum now and then, and then there is you still whining about the same stuff months later when facts are the show was good, personal opinions dont change reality.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2023-05-02 at 07:50 PM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  19. #9319
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I respectfully disagree. I'm glad you feel like this is firmly placed in Middle Earth, but I don't share that same perspective.

    As per my argument, it isn't about whether it feels like it's Middle Earth or not, it's about what it does to the lore. Because I can talk about Shadows of Morder/War and say the same thing about them bastardizing lore, while still feeling like a Middle Earth game. It's got the aesthetics and the world building, but it completely disregards the lore. And that'a okay, since they didn't set out to adhere to canon in the first place. It was still an entertaining game as ling as you don't think tok hard about the story.
    I actually had a lot of respect for how Shadow of Mordor handled the lore with regards to Celebrimbor's story, they clearly knew the stuff they were changing and it fit well.

    Can't say the same about Shadow of War, fighting to defend Minas Ithil at that time was jarring and sexy Shelob was the nail in the coffin for me.

    I see RoP in the same way, where I enjoy it for the creatures and the visuals and will keep watching for it. I like the aesthetics. But the lore is a mess.
    The story is a mess if you compare it to what occurs in the Silmarillion and I feel some of the plot devices are over simplifications of the lore (for example the complex relationship between the Elves and Middle-earth leading to their fading and the need for Rings of Power to preserve themselves as people becoming "we will die without magic metal") but the underlying mysticism feels thoroughly Tolkien. There are references to Providence and the Valar, and a firm grasp of the history of the First Age (though this all seems to be hampered somewhat by the licensing.)

    It's pretty rough - dialogue can be eyeroll worthy, plot devices oversimplified and they absolutely suck at giving a sense of time or distance passing - but I still appreciate the feel of Tolkien's magical world.

    It's not whether the audience understands it or not, it's whether it has any value to the world building and lore.

    Is there any real reason they're both called Durin and not just given different names? Could you give a good reason why this needed to happen? It certainly doesn't add anything to RoP's drama by having them given the same name.

    And for anyone who does know the lore, the change is a much lesser experience with no real reason for it to change for the movie-going audience. It doesn't make the lore any more palettable than if they merely had different names.
    It's because history recorded the names of the dwarven Kings as Durin III and Durin IV, and while whoever is telling the story might be far from the "historical truth" of the events they're still likely to know those names if they know of figures like Celebrimbor and Elendil.

  20. #9320
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The show has had over 100 million viewers so far, thats more than most tv shows ever get and that number is still increasing so its just a simple fact the show was a success, you need to simply accept reality that most ppl who watched the show enjoyed it and dont care in the slightest about the show following the lore completely or not. Amazon have already stated the show as a success so you are not the one to tell ppl it isnt one.

    There is wasting some time of a forum now and then, and then there is you still whining about the same stuff months later when facts are the show was good, personal opinions dont change reality.
    As we have seen time and time again the consequences of a show (or an expansion) being bad don't show until the next installment comes out. Shadowlands was a bad expansion that sold and Dragonflight is a better expansion that is struggling to sell (but has better retention for being better). Lots of people who started watching LoTR and didn't finish won't bother with Season 2, the same with happen with people dissapointed by the first season. So it would be short sighted to call it a success.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •