Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Myradin]

"They should have used Annatar in season 1 instead of this random human guy!!!"

"Why are they using Annatar in season 2 instead of that random human guy?!!"

That's not the complaint. The problem is 'Annatar' is clearly just the human guy in a wig. They could have gotten a different actor (which I believe news suggest they have for parts of it?) or done more to mask this guy clearly just being Halbrand in a wig.

Sauron is a shape changer. Him changing appearance makes sense, and his Halbrand disguise is already comprimised. There's no reason to continue resembling Halbrand.

But I guess missing the point is how one writes this show or defends it.

[Kumorii]

Well, to their credit, they WILL wait for the show, in order to form their battle plan.

Not planning to watch this. S1 was enough clusterfuck. Just as i skipped Wheel of Raf... err, Time S2.

I had a blast watching season 1. I imaging season 2 will be as funny and comedic.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Only thing I’ve heard about the show recently is that they apparently got the rights to the silmarillion and will be trying to be closer to it, any one know what plot points that would entail?

I remember people saying there wasn’t much for this actual time period to adapt so that makes me wonder.

[Adamas102]

Be not afraid, the council will come in due time, they just need to create a new approach for this

Actually, The Council got together and decided to mostly just let you shitposters circlejerk here while you hate watch the show anyway.

[bledgor]

Only thing I’ve heard about the show recently is that they apparently got the rights to the silmarillion and will be trying to be closer to it, any one know what plot points that would entail?

I remember people saying there wasn’t much for this actual time period to adapt so that makes me wonder.

Ehhh not so much there isn't much to adapt in that time period, so much as the time period in question (the making of the rings, the rise of Sauron, the fall of Numenor, the battle of the last alliance of elves and men, and the wakening of the Balrog) all took place over several thousand years. These are all huge events in teh world that took up much of the history we know of the time.

You could in theory tell the story of the Ringwraiths/the fall of those men, but I don't trust amazon to tell a good story here.

You also at SOME point have to fucking address Celeborn, and Celebrian, considering you know Elrond marries Celebrian at some point and has children with her, including Arwen. The fact we had ONE line throughout the first season hinting at Celeborn, the husband of Galadriel while having her mention repeatably her dead brother just fucking boggles my mind.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ehhh not so much there isn't much to adapt in that time period, so much as the time period in question (the making of the rings, the rise of Sauron, the fall of Numenor, the battle of the last alliance of elves and men, and the wakening of the Balrog) all took place over several thousand years. These are all huge events in teh world that took up much of the history we know of the time.

You could in theory tell the story of the Ringwraiths/the fall of those men, but I don't trust amazon to tell a good story here.

You also at SOME point have to fucking address Celeborn, and Celebrian, considering you know Elrond marries Celebrian at some point and has children with her, including Arwen. The fact we had ONE line throughout the first season hinting at Celeborn, the husband of Galadriel while having her mention repeatably her dead brother just fucking boggles my mind.

Ah so assuming they are trying to be closer to the hook and I think they condensed the timeline right? Then you’d expect Numenor‘s fall, elf romance, and Mabye the fall of the human kings.

Wonder if they will try and hit those.

[bledgor]

Ah so assuming they are trying to be closer to the hook and I think they condensed the timeline right? Then you’d expect Numenor‘s fall, elf romance, and Mabye the fall of the human kings.

Wonder if they will try and hit those.

The problem is they really fucked the order of things, badly. Like the Rings creation is basically that all 19 were made roughly at the same time, and Sauron had a direct hand in making 16 of them (dwarves and man) while Celebrimbor made the Elven rings alone, which is why they weren't as corrupt/bad off as the others.

As for the Romance, by the time the rings were being made Celeborn and Galadriel already had Celebrian, and were traveling around with her, but in the show we have not seen Celeborn, and no indication that Celebrian exists. This is all ignoring the fact they made Galadriel a petulant child when in the books she is literally the 2nd oldest Elf alive (in middle earth) at this point who is renowned for her wisdom. You would think her and Elrond are similiar age/Elrond is older probably, but actually she is older than both Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad.

Add in the only human King we have seen is the now dead (long live the queen) King of Nuemenor whom never became a ringwraith and they have a lot of ground to cover and the ground they covered is wrong.

It just feels like an exercise in futility as they fucked up the start so badly I don't see how you course correct without a complete overhaul.

[Mazza]

Actually, The Council got together and decided to mostly just let you shitposters circlejerk here while you hate watch the show anyway.

I will only watch season 2 of this if I run out of other stuff to watch so I can postpone watching season 2 of WoT even longer

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It just feels like an exercise in futility as they fucked up the start so badly I don't see how you course correct without a complete overhaul.

Ya trying to course correct when you didn’t have the rights on the first place and did no setup for what should be going odd seems like it would be doomed to fail.

But it might be an interesting failure.

[Rennadrel]

Only thing I’ve heard about the show recently is that they apparently got the rights to the silmarillion and will be trying to be closer to it, any one know what plot points that would entail?

I remember people saying there wasn’t much for this actual time period to adapt so that makes me wonder.

They never got the rights to using The Silmarilion material. Not to mention even if they did, it's not a book with a singular story, it is basically an abridged history of really short stories about different characters, oh and no Hobbits. Not to mention the whole thing takes place over the span of I think 500 years from the time of the forging of the Silmarils to the defeat of Morgoth. And even in that time period, there's not a lot covered about Sauron.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They never got the rights to using The Silmarilion material. Not to mention even if they did, it's not a book with a singular story, it is basically an abridged history of really short stories about different characters, oh and no Hobbits. Not to mention the whole thing takes place over the span of I think 500 years from the time of the forging of the Silmarils to the defeat of Morgoth. And even in that time period, there's not a lot covered about Sauron.

Huh I had thought I heard that they did but
Looking it up all I could find was rumours that they got access to some miscellaneous texts.

So I guess it’s still just all up in the wind, don’t know if that’s better or worse then trying to course correct.

[Syegfryed]

Actually, The Council got together and decided to mostly just let you shitposters circlejerk here while you hate watch the show anyway.

can i count you on that later?

Well, to their credit, they WILL wait for the show, in order to form their battle plan.

Not planning to watch this. S1 was enough clusterfuck. Just as i skipped Wheel of Raf... err, Time S2.

They will prob wait someone mention DEI to come here. I was not planning to watch either, but hey, first season was comedy gold, i can't wait to open a new hole in this show.

That's not the complaint. The problem is 'Annatar' is clearly just the human guy in a wig. They could have gotten a different actor (which I believe news suggest they have for parts of it?) or done more to mask this guy clearly just being Halbrand in a wig.

That's not even half of the complain.

they should have used Annatar IN SEASON 1, using in season 2 make no fucking sense. They already fucked up this whole ordeal by having Sauron be there not as Annatar, AND the elves to make the 3 elven rings first.

[Adamas102]

can i count you on that later?

Unlikely. I think one season was enough to see that it's impossible to drill any sense into you guys so have at it.

That's not even half of the complain.

they should have used Annatar IN SEASON 1, using in season 2 make no fucking sense. They already fucked up this whole ordeal by having Sauron be there not as Annatar, AND the elves to make the 3 elven rings first.

Case in point:

Sauron uses form of Annatar to infiltrate elven society (and likely have a more direct hand in corrupting the other 16 rings) - CHECK
Three rings made my the elves that did not have Sauron's direct influence and corruption - CHECK

Pretty much working towards the same end result, but yeah, here you are crying about how everything is totally fucked up and doesn't make sense just because it didn't happen exactly like you expected it to. If you can't wrap your mind around the concept of "adaptation" then I foresee just another circlejerk of people who are aware of the details but don't understand that you can string them along in different ways that still reach the same conclusion.

[Syegfryed]

Case in point:

Sauron uses form of Annatar to infiltrate elven society (and likely have a more direct hand in corrupting the other 16 rings) - CHECK
Three rings made my the elves that did not have Sauron's direct influence and corruption - CHECK

Pretty much working towards the same end result

"we just changed the entire plot and the timeline of how things were, but since we had Annatar infiltrated and the elves making the 3 rings without sauron we are all good

no wonder, that this serie is made, since people can rationalize bullshit like this

Its like saying "the elves are fine, because they have pointy ears", despite they looking like humans doing larp, with a old dude as one of then.

. If you can't wrap your mind around the concept of "adaptation"

A shit adaptation is shit, no matter how you try to cope with this

[Biomega]

I can kind of understand where they might be coming from.

The problem is of course that with such a famous narrative, plot twists are almost impossible if you follow the original story; because everyone already knows.

So what they did was turn things around - they introduced a new character (Halbrand) that they could use to hide their plot twist because he wasn't part of the original story. And the they used that revelation to make the original plot twist around Annatar into an obvious non-twist, effectively preempting the idea that everyone knows who Annatar is by consciously making that knowledge part of the narrative. I.e. they're trying to avoid people's disappointment at already knowing who Annatar is by setting up a plot that doesn't even try to hide his real identity - but that adds another identity twist for the same character in another spot, so they still have that story element to work with.

Now, of course this didn't work particularly well. And perhaps it also wasn't a particularly good idea to begin with. But this isn't just some mistake or clumsy execution, I don't think - this is a deliberate, calculated choice they made in order to try and outsmart the audience. Whether or not they should have done that in the first place is another question entirely, of course.

To me this just seems like a case of writers trying to be too clever for their own good, instead of just focusing on solid execution of the source material. A good adaptation shouldn't be concerned with trying to rewrite the source material so it becomes new and original - not only is that a fool's errand, it is also often the last thing established fans want. They should instead focus on modifying it to better fit the medium of the adaptation, so they can make use of the tools and possibilities of that medium to further enhance the original. Not to remake it. It's important to not just stupidly copy 1-for-1, but it's also important to not just change something just so you can say you've changed it, or just so you can pretend people are getting something new. That's almost never successful. There are some edge cases in which you can deconstruct and invert something, but that has to be extremely deliberate and requires a ton of very specific, very careful work; and it's not usually something that works well for this format here, but rather something like a stage play or something that is a more cerebral, more critically engaged product. Which a $1bn Amazon Studios show will never, ever, ever, ever, EVER be.

[Adamas102]

"we just changed the entire plot and the timeline of how things were, but since we had Annatar infiltrated and the elves making the 3 rings without sauron we are all good

no wonder, that this serie is made, since people can rationalize bullshit like this

Its like saying "the elves are fine, because they have pointy ears", despite they looking like humans doing larp, with a old dude as one of then.

See? You're spouting nothing but nonsense. Yeah, you can change a lot of details and still end up with the same result. And yeah, human actors wear wigs to play elves. They've been doing that since Peter Jackson's much lauded films. And yeah, I don't care that they hired a 50 year old to play a millennia old elf. Like, what the fuck is this sad, nit picky bullshit...

A shit adaptation is shit, no matter how you try to cope with this

It's not about whether the adaptation is shit or not, it's about that fact that you don't understand the concept to begin with.

[Syegfryed]

See? You're spouting nothing but nonsense. Yeah, you can change a lot of details and still end up with the same result.

So? it still end being shit, because the details you changed you changed in such garbage way the result doesn't matter.

And yeah, human actors wear wigs to play elves. They've been doing that since Peter Jackson's much lauded films

The elves in Peter Jackson looked more like elves, you can't possible cope that they are on the same level.
That is just another flaw of the series, miscasting left and right

And yeah, I don't care that they hired a 50 year old to play a millennia old elf. Like, what the fuck is this sad, nit picky bullshit...

If you don't care it just means you don't have no care about the original. And yet you are still here defending that piece crap but in a more subtle way, since you can't defend the show, you try to nitpick about technicalities in the adaptation, which is ironic when you claim nitpick itself.

It's not about whether the adaptation is shit or not, it's about that fact that you don't understand the concept to begin with.

No, i do understand, im saying the adaptation is shit regardless

Or you deny, that adaptation is shit?

[Adamas102]

If you don't care it just means you don't have no care about the original.

No, I just don't whine like a fucking baby about things that don't really matter that much. And that's really what this all boils down to. Petulant children that think something is total shit just because they didn't get their way.

Like, seriously? The wigs? One actor being a bit older than the others? Relatively minor changes to the series of events? Just keep adding on to the list of "things that don't really determine whether a show is good or not".

Yes, I DENY that this adaptation shit! As with all shows/movies there is plenty to criticize but overall it's perfectly fine. Even if I don't agree with all the changes they made I understand why they made them, and for the most part nothing is so egregious (yet) as to break the framework that they're working with.

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No, i do understand, im saying the adaptation is shit regardless

You obviously don't because the stuff you're complaining about is perfectly reasonable stuff for an adaptation (things like changing time lines, having actors that don't fit character descriptions to a T, etc), but you're saying that BECAUSE it is different from the source material it is therefore shit.

[Khaza-R]

No, I just don't whine like a fucking baby about things that don't really matter that much. And that's really what this all boils down to. Petulant children that think something is total shit just because they didn't get their way.

Like, seriously? The wigs? One actor being a bit older than the others? Relatively minor changes to the series of events? Just keep adding on to the list of "things that don't really determine whether a show is good or not".

Yes, I DENY that this adaptation shit! As with all shows/movies there is plenty to criticize but overall it's perfectly fine. Even if I don't agree with all the changes they made I understand why they made them, and for the most part nothing is so egregious (yet) as to break the framework that they're working with.
.

While I can understand this sentiment in a very general sense. There's a lot of complaining on the internet. Especially about adaptions and remakes that are ever present nowadays.

But lets also be real that this is not just any tv show. This is the highest budget series of all time. Covering one of the most popular franchises and definitely influential fantasy works to ever be made. In this case the criticism is both invited and warranted.

[s_bushido]

But lets also be real that this is not just any tv show. This is the highest budget series of all time. Covering one of the most popular franchises and definitely influential fantasy works to ever be made. In this case the criticism is both invited and warranted.

Thing is, the complaints about the production value of the show are complete bullshit. Like...objectively. And I assume that's where most of the budget went.

As for the popularity of the franchise, I think it's pretty debatable. Fellowship and Two Towers did about as well as the Harry Potter movies that were released those respective years. And Return of the King only made slightly more. Obviously LotR has been more influential since it laid the groundwork for basically an entire genre of modern fiction, but I'm not sure how much that actually translates to popularity these days. Nor does any of that mean that the show is somehow obligated to be spectacular...even if that obligation meant that it was guaranteed in the first place. The Hobbit trilogy exists, and I think I'd speak for most when they say that failed to live up to expectations.