Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Khaza-R]

Thing is, the complaints about the production value of the show are complete bullshit. Like...objectively. And I assume that's where most of the budget went.

You'll have to elaborate here because I am not sure I follow.

As for the popularity of the franchise, I think it's pretty debatable. Fellowship and Two Towers did about as well as the Harry Potter movies that were released those respective years. And Return of the King only made slightly more. Obviously LotR has been more influential since it laid the groundwork for basically an entire genre of modern fiction, but I'm not sure how much that actually translates to popularity these days. Nor does any of that mean that the show is somehow obligated to be spectacular...even if that obligation meant that it was guaranteed in the first place. The Hobbit trilogy exists, and I think I'd speak for most when they say that failed to live up to expectations.

I was mostly talking about the books. And yes, even those are outsold by HP. But HP is also the highest selling fantasy franchise of all time so the ceiling isn't necessarily very high here.

[Syegfryed]

No, I just don't whine like a fucking baby about things that don't really matter that much.

Brother in Christ, you are literally whining like a fucking baby about things that don't rly matter RIGHT NOW, about what im saying about the show.

you are so offended and triggered that you are literally being the person you are speaking about.

Ir is rly miraculous how a thread about a garbage show, in the subforum of a videogame forum can show people hypocrisy.

Like, seriously? The wigs?

Its fucking garbage, it awful for a show with this amount of budget, this is not a fanmade video, nor people larping in their local comicon.

Just keep adding on to the list of "things that don't really determine whether a show is good or not".

Good thing its not you to decide what matters and what not.

Yes, I DENY that this adaptation shit!

HAHAHAHAHA

You obviously don't because the stuff you're complaining about is perfectly reasonable stuff for an adaptation (things like changing time lines, having actors that don't fit character descriptions to a T, etc), but you're saying that BECAUSE it is different from the source material it is therefore shit.

You already used this fallacy before, we are not criticising just because- change - exist - we are criticizing because the change was - shit -.

an example, compressing the timeline was a reasonable change for the adaptation, that was fine, no criticism here, but changing the order of how the rings were made and make the same dude with a bad wig infiltrate the elves was shit it fundamentally change the plot making worse and dumber

[exochaft]

You obviously don't because the stuff you're complaining about is perfectly reasonable stuff for an adaptation (things like changing time lines, having actors that don't fit character descriptions to a T, etc), but you're saying that BECAUSE it is different from the source material it is therefore shit.

The problem is that all those issues, while true in most cases, are just icing on the cake compared to how fundamentally flawed the show really is. Even as generic fantasy show, its script/writing and execution are scrapping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to quality. When you combined the fundamental flaws independent of the show being an adaptation with the adaptation not being great, the failure is amplified. If there is one aspect of the show that can be praiseworthy, it's that some of the shots looked nice; unfortunately, when you put bumbling fool characters doing stuff that makes no sense or lacks consistency or and reverence to the material from which it is adapted into those nice-looking shots, it just wastes the potential of what those nice shots could've been complimenting.

To be fair, the show doesn't have to be flawless. Heck, the Peter Jackson LotR trilogy wasn't flawless, but it set a pretty high bar for what an adaptation could do (Hobbit trilogy didn't even measure up to it). Be that as it may, there's a limit to how many flaws that can be ignored. In the case of RoP, the flaws were so severe and abundant that pretty much anything positive was just overshadowed by legitimate negative aspects of the show. Even the showrunners have indirectly admitted this with how much they had to change how S2 was going to be made and written after the first season was received, as there's no reason to fundamentally overhaul your show if there's nothing wrong with it and/or it's received positively by the majority of your audience.

I'll even go the extra mile and say it's perfectly fine if someone actually liked RoP. However, that doesn't mean it's okay to just ignore how fundamentally flawed the show was; one can enjoy and like trash shows or movies, but one can also admit that they're trash while still liking them. No one should feel offended that they like a terrible show, but acting like the show isn't terrible does no one any good. Opposite can be true, as well, as one can say they don't like content even if it's fundamentally not flawed... but RoP is not that content by any objective metric.

[s_bushido]

You'll have to elaborate here because I am not sure I follow.

You say "the most expensive show" as if that's supposed to be indicative of the quality of anything more than the sets/props/effects/etc. I don't even know if any of the actors involved are that expensive individually. And it's not like writers get paid for shit usually.

[Fabinas]

I had a blast watching season 1. I imaging season 2 will be as funny and comedic.

Glad you enjoyed it. I guess i expected much more, so when i watched S1 the focus was on pain for the story rape on screen instead of the ridiculousness of it all.

[Adamas102]

While I can understand this sentiment in a very general sense. There's a lot of complaining on the internet. Especially about adaptions and remakes that are ever present nowadays.

Oh, for sure. People get very attached to the things they like and are often times and unfortunately that can just set them up for disappointment when an adaptation isn't EXACTLY what they expected. There have been plenty of adaptations of works that I liked that I didn't feel did a good job at retelling the source material BUT that alone doesn't mean they were bad movies/shows as a result. Two examples that always come to mind for me are I Am Legend and Without Remorse. I felt both really missed the mark on conveying the base themes of the source materials, but they were still perfectly fine action movies.

But lets also be real that this is not just any tv show. This is the highest budget series of all time. Covering one of the most popular franchises and definitely influential fantasy works to ever be made. In this case the criticism is both invited and warranted.

Not quite sure what you're referring to here because RoP looks WAY beyond most other fantasy shows and movies in terms of production value. I would also note that what the show is covering is a very niche portion of the source material compared to the novels. I'd wager that the vast majority of people who watched and enjoyed the Peter Jackson trilogy never gave the RotK appendices or the Silmarillion much thought. Maybe it would be better to view the show more from the perspective of it being a tie in to the movies (yeah I know they've said it isn't but they made a conscious effort to keep the same aesthetic, and that's the same fucking balrog) rather than a direct translation of the written material.

[Fabinas]

You say "the most expensive show" as if that's supposed to be indicative of the quality of anything more than the sets/props/effects/etc. I don't even know if any of the actors involved are that expensive individually. And it's not like writers get paid for shit usually.

So where do the money go if not for the quality of the show? Be it script, actors, dress/props, cgi etc?

If it is the rights, why buy expensive rights and not secure budget to produce a worthy series of your investment?

[Syegfryed]

So where do the money go if not for the quality of the show? Be it script, actors, dress/props, cgi etc?

If it is the rights, why buy expensive rights and not secure budget to produce a worthy series of your investment?

This goes into old theories about how this series is a massive money laundry scheme, cause the budget must have gone somewhere, and we know for a fact, it was not in the actors, writers, dress or props, because all of then have being awful to "meh". I reffuse to believe everythign went to CGI and music, which are the only things you can say are acceptable

Glad you enjoyed it. I guess i expected much more, so when i watched S1 the focus was on pain for the story rape on screen instead of the ridiculousness of it all.

It help if you watch it friends, so you can make fun of it.

[Adamas102]

The problem is that all those issues, while true in most cases, are just icing on the cake compared to how fundamentally flawed the show really is. Even as generic fantasy show, its script/writing and execution are scrapping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to quality.

It's difficult to take a lot of these arguments seriously when you start with this because it's either hyperbole or you just haven't really watched a lot of movies/TV. On no level is RoP "bottom of the barrel", and in terms of production quality (sets, costumes, props, CGI) and cinematography it's head and shoulders above the vast majority of the genre. Maybe it's an age thing? Like, none of you were around for the campy adventure and fantasy movies of the 80's, 90's, and 00's? Even those aren't bottom of the barrel if you've been exposed to the REALLY low budget movies that people put out.

That being said, the show was definitely weaker in the writing category. I don't feel like it juggled the various storylines well, and they probably should have outright cut the hobbit section since it didn't really tie into the others. I thought pushing the whole "which one of these guys is Sauron" mystery was completely unnecessary and didn't really add much since people familiar with the lore were quickly able to deduce who it was and those who weren't just didn't care.

I also agree with most here that the way Galadriel was portrayed as a brash hothead just didn't really work. The actor was fine, I just think they could have pulled back a bit on the abrasiveness. Galadriel doesn't need to be portrayed as she was in the PJ movies. Given how far removed in time the show takes place there was nothing wrong with giving her a more warrior-esque vibe, they just didn't hit quite the mark.

Let's be honest though, Tolkien was no Shakespeare in terms of writing dialogue and he himself was under no illusion that he was great at it. This idea that Tolkien is the pinnacle of fantasy writing really detracts from honest criticism as well as acknowledgement of what he was truly good at. His strengths were in crafting languages, naming people and places, describing fantastical settings, and tying those things together into a sprawling mythology which was very unique at the time. A lot of his dialogue is very much just generic fantasy writing by today's standards. The show has no dialogue to adapt anyway since Tolkien never wrote any for this part of the legendarium, and while it might not be AS good as what Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens came up with it's really not THAT far off.

So yeah, I don't think ANYONE here has claimed that RoP doesn't have flaws. However, it really is just bonkers the things that MOST (not all buy most) of the detractors tend to get their panties in a twist over. Like I said before, I totally understand people being very attached to a work and being disappointed when an adaptation makes any changes, but that isn't really criticism in and of itself.

[Kumorii]

Glad you enjoyed it. I guess i expected much more, so when i watched S1 the focus was on pain for the story rape on screen instead of the ridiculousness of it all.

I think their promotion of the series removed any expectations I had for it. I went in expecting it to be ridiculous, yet they managed to make it even more so, which made it so funny to me.

[Adamas102]

an example, compressing the timeline was a reasonable change for the adaptation, that was fine, no criticism here, but changing the order of how the rings were made and make the same dude with a bad wig infiltrate the elves was shit it fundamentally change the plot making worse and dumber

The other rings haven't been made yet, right? As such there is still room for the Annatar character to be present for those in order to differentiate them from The Three. In the source material Annatar wasn't trusted by some of the highest ranking elves, and yet he still got to hang out for a hundred years making magical relics. Tolkien didn't explain exactly what he did in that time, so there is room for this version of Annatar to expand on that. Tolkien also didn't write ANYTHING concerning how the other rings were distributed so there is also room for Annatar to have a hand in that.

As for using the same actor in a different disguise that makes perfect sense from a visual perspective. I'm glad they're not pushing the whole "is THIS really Sauron" thing again since I don't think it worked well in the first season, so now even people who aren't familiar with the source material can immediately recognize who this is. As for how he disguises himself in the setting, I'm willing to see what they come up with (and since it's a fantasy world with fucking magic there are plenty of options). Until we see how he's introduced there's no reason to think that anyone will be in a position to say "hey, you're obviously an elf but you look very similar to a human that was here for a few days so you're obviously the same person".

There really isn't anything solid to go on yet beyond "Annatar seems to exist in season 2" but you are so dead set on just vomiting negativity that this fact alone seems to have triggered you. It definitely CAN work, so until you actually use your words and explain why you think it can't you really have no leg to stand on here. How does changing the order of how the rings were made (other than the One Ring being the last) make any difference? Here, I'll give you the pitch: "Oh no, Sauron has resurfaced! We just made these three powerful rings that might help us fight him. Maybe we should make some for the dwarves and humans as well so that they too can stand against Sauron". Easy peasy.

[s_bushido]

That being said, the show was definitely weaker in the writing category. I don't feel like it juggled the various storylines well, and they probably should have outright cut the hobbit section since it didn't really tie into the others. I thought pushing the whole "which one of these guys is Sauron" mystery was completely unnecessary and didn't really add much since people familiar with the lore were quickly able to deduce who it was and those who weren't just didn't care.

Basically. Season 1 would have been a lot better if they'd just focused on like two of the plotlines instead of the 5? they tried to do. The Hobbits would have been fine if they weren't competing for screentime with everything else. It's undoubtedly why the climax felt so rushed.

Hell, I would have been happy if it was just Elrond/the dwarves and Arondir/Bronwyn as the main characters... But I understand why Galadriel's stuff was necessary for the story they wanted to tell.

[Syegfryed]

The other rings haven't been made yet, right? As such there is still room for the Annatar character to be present for those in order to differentiate them from The Three.

No there isn't.

First off, the whole thing about making the rings was dumb. Guyladriel KNEW making the rings was Sauron plan, was his ordeal and he had personal motives, that, being the dark lord of all, you would at least, question, if they are good. But they still decided to make then anyway.

And then, an elf out of nowhere - that is the same guy with a wig - comes to make MORE RINGS? why? they already made the 3 to save the elven race, why would they need more? if anyone comes up with the idea of making more it have to be fucking suspicious and nobody would rly eat that shit up.

Is crap, the entire plot changed and became dumber, and you think is fine because "well, its annatar so its all right"

ITs like if you are adapting Saruman death, but he die falling from an eagle he conjured out of his ass, but hey, Saruman died too right? the end result is the same., saruman dead.

I'm glad they're not pushing the whole "is THIS really Sauron" thing again since I don't think it worked well in the first season, so now even people who aren't familiar with the source material can immediately recognize who this is..

This is another proof of how they changing the order of things fucked this over

It was bad, you even said so

As for using the same actor in a different disguise that makes perfect sense from a visual perspective

No it doesn't, pick another actor, Sauron is a fucking shapeshifter not a hairdresser.

He can be another actor and we as the audience know the truth

[Biomega]

There really isn't anything solid to go on yet beyond "Annatar seems to exist in season 2" but you are so dead set on just vomiting negativity

I mean... That's just not true. We know he doesn't appear to have changed his face from his Halbrand persona. We know he is being confronted directly by the elves. We know Galadriel seems to be calling him out on his identity. We know he's fighting back.

That's not just "he exists" - that's the outline of some serious plot points.

Most notably, it means that they're not trying to hide his identity in pretty much any way. As soon as Galadriel sees him, she'll know. This puts the entire plot line on a serious timer, because we know it's being sustained purely by how long they can keep her away. That in itself already sets out a lot of plot constraints, especially since we see her together with Elrond in other shots, meaning there's multiple crossovers between the character arcs - not to mention she's also (ostensibly) shown with one of the elven rings, which is even more crossover.

That's not all the details, and it's not all the execution, but it's the outline of a shaky and contrived plot because it all hinges on an incredibly obvious identity somehow not being revealed immediately. You know where that kind of plot usually appears? In comedies. Because there it derives its humor precisely from the enormous contrivance required to keep such an obvious secret. It's funny precisely because it's a ridiculous notion that such a blatant disguise would ever fool anyone - and of course it also requires the audience to be a willing participant in the deception. But this isn't a comedy. It's a drama. Which makes people understandably concerned about how they're going to pull this off without it becoming ridiculous or contrived.

Now, of course we haven't seen the whole show so we can't tell, and if they do pull it off in a clever way then all credit to them, well deserved. In the end, the final product is all that matters for whether it's good or not, and the fact that people were concerned won't matter. But it does explain their concern at this stage. It's not just "dead-set negativity" that's at work here, it's reasoned and justified concern about a plot detail that while not fully available at least operates under certain frame conditions that make it a precarious prospect. Whether or not you agree with people's concerns, you have to at least acknowledge that they're not just spiteful and unfounded. There is good reasoning behind at least this particular concern.

[Adamas102]

First off, the whole thing about making the rings was dumb. Guyladriel KNEW making the rings was Sauron plan, was his ordeal and he had personal motives, that, being the dark lord of all, you would at least, question, if they are good. But they still decided to make then anyway.

Did you not pay attention? Making ONE ring was Sauron's supposed plan. Splitting it into three for the express purpose that one person not have that much power (and also uncovering Sauron's identity so that he couldn't BE there when the rings were made) denied Sauron the power he was trying to get. In the lore Celebrimbor just got lucky that he made the Three on his own because he never had any idea what Annatar was doing with the other rings. Presumably in the show they will cover exactly how Sauron corrupts the 16 and why he didn't just take them before going off to make the One Ring.

And then, an elf out of nowhere

You have NO IDEA how he's introduced, but "an elf out of nowhere" is pretty much how Tolkien wrote it. "An elf out of nowhere that was rejected and distrusted by the likes of Gil-Galad, Galadriel, and Elrond still just got to hang out making magical artifact for a hundred years and no one really did anything about it". Tolkien didn't write some masterful infiltration plot. He was an elf that claimed he was an emissary from the Valar and the smiths of Eregion trusted him at face value. What do you fucking expect when the lore itself is super barebones on the whole thing? This is literally you just not liking something because it is slightly different.

they already made the 3 to save the elven race, why would they need more? if anyone comes up with the idea of making more it have to be fucking suspicious and nobody would rly eat that shit up.

You have NO IDEA how they address that, and your lack of imagination isn't proof that it can't work. Why would they make more? Maybe because they realize now that Sauron is back and even though his plan was just thwarted they should make more preparations in case he decides to come back. Who is to say Annatar is the one that gives them that idea? And even if it is, without knowing how that idea is presented we can't know how reasonable it is to whoever it's presented to. Maybe Gil-Galad does reject the idea (the way he rejected Annatar) but the smiths of Eregion in their hubris decide to do it anyway.

ITs like if you are adapting Saruman death, but he die falling from an eagle he conjured out of his ass, but hey, Saruman died too right? the end result is the same., saruman dead.

You mean like how Peter Jackson did it in the movies? Where Saruman is killed at Isengard in a scene that didn't even make the theatrical cut. The Scouring of the Shire hits a pretty major theme for Tolkien's writing so did rewriting it make the whole trilogy shit? No, you lose a pretty important plot point from the source material but the story the movies were conveying remains pretty much intact.

No it doesn't, pick another actor, Sauron is a fucking shapeshifter not a hairdresser.

He can be another actor and we as the audience know the truth

Again, the fact that you lack imagination and can't understand the reasons WHY these changes are made doesn't make the changes bad. Yeah, they could have done things differently. EVERYTHING could be done differently. I think keeping the same actor is ideal for visual consistency, but yeah I'm curious to see how they handle it in world.

[Askyl]

I've never seen so many people, gather to talk about something, being so wrong and showing so little knowledge shouting at each other than this thread. And doing everything in their power to add political insults into every character, narrative and story discussion.

Imagine being so hurt that a show isn't exactly as you envisioned it, because your vision comes from ragebait youtube channels.

[Adamas102]

I mean... That's just not true. We know he doesn't appear to have changed his face from his Halbrand persona. We know he is being confronted directly by the elves. We know Galadriel seems to be calling him out on his identity. We know he's fighting back.

We don't know WHEN any of those things happen. It looks like he's confronted by Celebrimbor in some ruins so presumably that's closer to the end of the season when things have already started falling apart. We also don't know that Galadriel's voice over is referring to Annatar specifically, just Sauron in general who they (as of the start of the season) believe has left Eregion.

As Tolkien wrote it Annatar was a sketchy elf that claimed he was an emissary from the Valar and even though some of the highest ranking elves distrusted him and refused to deal with him he was still fully accepted by the smiths. The theme is that hubris and a desire for power blinded at least SOME of the elves to the true nature of who was guiding them, but Tolkien didn't really flesh any of this out at all.

In terms of the show, using the same actor in order to maintain visual consistency makes sense, and until we know who exactly Annatar deals with directly there's no reason to assume his face alone is a giveaway within the context that it's presented.

Most notably, it means that they're not trying to hide his identity in pretty much any way. As soon as Galadriel sees him, she'll know. This puts the entire plot line on a serious timer, because we know it's being sustained purely by how long they can keep her away. That in itself already sets out a lot of plot constraints, especially since we see her together with Elrond in other shots, meaning there's multiple crossovers between the character arcs - not to mention she's also (ostensibly) shown with one of the elven rings, which is even more crossover.

As far as her and Elrond are aware Sauron has left Eregion so there's no real reason for them to remain there instead of going back to Lindon, or Kazad-dum, or perhaps even pursuing Halbrand back to wherever they think he might have gone. Celebrimbor having dealt directly with Halbrand is really the only "issue" but again we go back to the smiths of Eregion being blinded by the gifts that Annatar brought. What exactly those are we don't know. Within the context of the show The Three are unique because they were crafted with the Valinor metal, so maybe he brings something else to the table for the creation of magic rings that convinces them he's working in their favor.

[bledgor]

I've never seen so many people, gather to talk about something, being so wrong and showing so little knowledge shouting at each other than this thread. And doing everything in their power to add political insults into every character, narrative and story discussion.

Imagine being so hurt that a show isn't exactly as you envisioned it, because your vision comes from ragebait youtube channels.

Imagine being so utterly ignorant of a source material something is based on then trying to yell at people who point out an "adaptation" has barely anything in common with its source.

It has nothing to do with how we "envisioned it" and everything to do with how Tolkein WROTE IT.

[Adamas102]

Imagine being so utterly ignorant of a source material something is based on then trying to yell at people who point out an "adaptation" has barely anything in common with its source.

It has nothing to do with how we "envisioned it" and everything to do with how Tolkein WROTE IT.

Tolkien wrote, what, 2 sentences concerning Annatar's role in the appendices and in the Silmarillion two paragraphs? Tolkien made a bare bones outline of this entire period that the show covers so stop acting like there is a brilliantly written narrative that is being ignored. These arguments have EVERYTHING to do with how you envision it because there's very little substance to what Tolkien actually wrote. So much of the legendarium for the 2nd Age is just lists or brief synopses of events. It's not a sacred text that can stand on its own and there is plenty of room to adapt and flesh out, which includes making drastic changes to better fit a different medium. This idea that the show has "barely anything in common with its source" is just ridiculous.

[Syegfryed]

Did you not pay attention? Making ONE ring was Sauron's supposed plan.

Clearly this was not the case, since he came back to create more

Splitting it into three for the express purpose that one person not have that much power (and also uncovering Sauron's identity so that he couldn't BE there when the rings were made) denied Sauron the power he was trying to get. In the lore Celebrimbor just got lucky that he made the Three on his own because he never had any idea what Annatar was doing with the other rings. Presumably in the show they will cover exactly how Sauron corrupts the 16 and why he didn't just take them before going off to make the One Ring.

"the ring is made to corrupt the user, but instead of making one, to corrupt one person, lets make THREE, for three users, that definitely not corrupt three persons and will fuck up his plan"

What a diahrea of plot is that that you are defending mate. They already know the creation of the ring was the idea of the dark lord, why in the ass would you make more if you already have the three? the plot doesn't make sense, at all.

You have NO IDEA how he's introduced, but "an elf out of nowhere" is pretty much how Tolkien wrote it.

And that would be fine, if you didn't had the dark lord himself, showing up before, wanting to make these rings in the first place my boy.


the darklord halbrand: Lets make this ring, thats my idea(my plan)
-> He is shunned away, after they discover his identity
an elf out of nowhere: Hey guys, i want to make more of these rings you have wink wink

What

That is why changing the order of things change the plot and make DUMBER.

You have NO IDEA how they address that

I do have an idea, they will fucking ignore it, because the show is awful and had similar bad writing in season 1.

and your lack of imagination isn't proof that it can't work.

Isn't my lack of imagination, but my lack of eating bullshit

You mean like how Peter Jackson did it in the movies?

I purposely pick that scene and made it absurd so you could see the difference, yet it flew over your heard with your lack of imagination.

the part of him conjuring an eagle out of his ass, was exactly to show the changes in the show are like that.

Again, the fact that you lack imagination and can't understand the reasons WHY these changes are made doesn't make the changes bad

I know why they made, because people doing the show are hacks, and nobody how you cope about the changes were bad.