Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Soulwind]

I might be strawmanning this, but it's how I see these discussions:

A: We're including other races in the story because historically there's been a lack of diversity in movies and shows.
B: Alright, then work them into the story, introduce nations and factions whose background explains their appearance.
A: No, no, we are trying to show how people of all races are mixed in society, to represent the real world. <- Goalpost moved.
B: Alright, then you should feature actors from the middle and far east, south America, northern Europe...
A: No, no, we want to represent modern American society, and focus on American minorities. <- Goalpost moved again.
B: Alright, then you should feature native-americans, latinos...

And at that point I don't think I've ever seen a decent response. "They're too much of a minority" isn't a great argument when you're the one pushing for minorities to be represented in the first place.

The truth is simpler, certain minorities are trendy right now, and producers want to cash in to that.

That isn't necessarily wrong. It's greedy, creatively bankrupt, and slightly racist. But not ill-intended. Although it should be obvious to anyone when a movie or a show is sincere about their representation, and when they're just virtue signaling for money, and anyone not getting a paycheck shouldn't be parroting their excuses as if they believed them.

Infracted.

[s_bushido]

No, no, we want to represent modern American society, and focus on American minorities.

[filmed in NZ and the UK]

lol... Try again. Black people exist outside of the US and Africa. In case you were wondering.

[Soulwind]

[filmed in NZ and the UK]

Your argument is what, that they grabbed people off the streets? That they only got inspired to include these minorities after visiting the filming location?

It's an american company with american actors playing around with american politics to, hopefully, earn more money.

[Frontenac]

Everything they are doing with Galadriel is stupid. They think that she's more hot-headed and brash due to being younger, but they are completely wrong, because Galadriel was one of the very few who were suspicious of Sauron from the start. While the other elves realized they were deceived only after Sauron created the One Ring, Galadriel was already very suspicious of "Annatar" and didn't trust him at all. So she's not "more naive" just because she's younger, they are butchering her character.

Then they put Galadriel in plate armour like a warrior and they think that makes her strong, when that's antithesis of her character. Galadriel was always portrayed as an otherworldly and magical being, not a warrior lol. She was the only not wielding any sort of weapon at Dol Guldur, but she was also the one who overpowered and banished Sauron himself.

But Tolkien himself said that Galadriel was proud, brash and ambitious. She was very tall and strong, as in athletic. He mother called her "Nerwen", which means "Man-maiden". She was one of the leaders of the Noldor Rebellion. As a member of the White Council, she participated in the attack on Dol Guldur. And she probably used a sword or a bow in that attack. She wouldn't use magic that much. It's Middle-earth, not Dungeons & Dragons. Even Gandalf used a sword when he was fighting. He wasn't throwing fireballs around.

"But elven women were healers! Men were the warriors!" Right, but Elrond, while being a great warrior, was also a great healer. In fact, that's how we see him in LotR. Was he acting womanly?

Also, being brash and hot-headed is not antithetic with being wise or insightful.

[Nyel]

The trailer was terrible. Like truly horrible. It was the most generic and bland piece of Fantasy I saw in the last years. It really rivals Wheel of Time or those cheap Netflix Fantasy shows.

What the f* happened? Like honestly. I am so happy the reception is devastatingly negative. It's not even about the political bullsh*t they try to implement (there are no black Elves or Dwarves, period), it just looks cheap. The diversity casting just makes it worse, not bad in general.

Infracted.

[DarkAmbient]

Did it really look so bad? I mean I've got my criticisms of the casting, but I thought in terms of the overall look it was good. That opening shot could have been straight out of the Jackson films. I don't know what people were expecting. What could they have done to satisfy people who thought it looked generic?

[Wilian]

Even Gandalf used a sword when he was fighting. He wasn't throwing fireballs around.

Common misconception produced by movies. In books he most definately used magic, often and in nearly every combat encounter. Hell. During their walk towards Caradhras when the wolves and the warg attacked them he set entire ring of trees ablaze to guard them and flamed up Legolas's arrows midflight. He wasn't so much the sword-slashing action hero like in the movies even if he carried and used it.

[Ara Myrr]

Did it really look so bad? I mean I've got my criticisms of the casting, but I thought in terms of the overall look it was good. That opening shot could have been straight out of the Jackson films. I don't know what people were expecting. What could they have done to satisfy people who thought it looked generic?

Eh, some of the cgi is kinda poor.

Galadriel hanging from the cliff looks terrible, there's video games that look better.

The autumn trees/waterfall/council looks *really* bad, the trees off on the left side of the shot look straight out of Skyrim.

[Wilian]

Did it really look so bad? I mean I've got my criticisms of the casting, but I thought in terms of the overall look it was good. That opening shot could have been straight out of the Jackson films. I don't know what people were expecting. What could they have done to satisfy people who thought it looked generic?

The thing is that as is usual with these modern productions, the sweeping, scene setting shots of landscapes, cities etc. do look good. Really good even. The problem arise when we get into more minute details and events. As is usual, armours and clothes tend to be overdesigned with idea that more clutter is always better, closer sets appear sterile and almoust feel like that if camera shifts even little bit we can see the studio hall peeking from the corner or it's so CGI'd up it cannot be missed. This while general makeup/styling is bland (not bland as is colourless or necessarily poorly made but the sort that doesn't convey a look at real people. Rather, they look like cosplayers trying to appear like the people they actually are).

This has been my issue with many of these new modern fantasy series.

[Frontenac]

Did it really look so bad? I mean I've got my criticisms of the casting, but I thought in terms of the overall look it was good. That opening shot could have been straight out of the Jackson films. I don't know what people were expecting. What could they have done to satisfy people who thought it looked generic?

"Generic" is the go-to word parroted by people, especially fans of a franchise, who just want to hate on something when they cannot say why. It means nothing, and people probably use it without even knowing what it means. Some people hate "The Rings of Power" because of brown elves and clean-shaven dwarf princesses, so the trailer must be bad. Since they find nothing objectively bad about it, they resort to "it looks like any other fantasy show or movie (Wheel of Time, Narnia, etc)". It's "generic". Well, of course, it is a fantasy show, they would share some tropes. It's like when, in new Star Trek shows, they introduce a new ship or a new race. Well, some people hate Kurtzman's guts, so of course the new ship must be bad, so they say it's "generic." It's not that there's anything wrong about it, it's just that it looks like a ship from any other Sci-Fi show, it does not scream "Star Trek", so it's bad and Kurtzman "hates the fans", etc. Well of course it does not scream Star Trek, it's new! The first Borg ship, when it was introduced, did not scream Star Trek at all. And it was a cube, can you have more "generic" than that? Guess fans were a bit more open-minded back then...

- - - Updated - - -

Common misconception produced by movies. In books he most definately used magic, often and in nearly every combat encounter. Hell. During their walk towards Caradhras when the wolves and the warg attacked them he set entire ring of trees ablaze to guard them and flamed up Legolas's arrows midflight. He wasn't so much the sword-slashing action hero like in the movies even if he carried and used it.

He was still using a sword to attack enemies, and Legolas' arrows still killed those wargs, even if Gandalf set them on fire. I never said magic was absent, just that it was more subtle than in D&D or other fantasy settings. Galadriel would be the same. She would wear some armor and carry a weapon in battle. Or at least there is nothing in the legendarium that prevents it.

[Wilian]

He was still using a sword to attack enemies, and Legolas' arrows still killed those wargs, even if Gandalf set them on fire. I never said magic was absent, just that it was more subtle than in D&D or other fantasy settings. Galadriel would be the same. She would wear some armor and carry a weapon in battle. Or at least there is nothing in the legendarium that prevents it.

My point was that it wasn't subtle and happened constantly. Going by the books he barely used his sword in comparison. It's a movie thing. And it was not really subtle either. Skies were filled with lightning seen tens to hundred miles away, setting entire circles of trees on fire. Casting light so bright it consumed entire flight of Nazguls.

There were more subtle moments of magic usage as well yes, just as there is in DnD but there were enough of these blazing moments as well and typically in almoust every battle scene he is involved.

[Nerovar]

I might be strawmanning this, but it's how I see these discussions:

A: We're including other races in the story because historically there's been a lack of diversity in movies and shows.
B: Alright, then work them into the story, introduce nations and factions whose background explains their appearance.
A: No, no, we are trying to show how people of all races are mixed in society, to represent the real world. <- Goalpost moved.
B: Alright, then you should feature actors from the middle and far east, south America, northern Europe...
A: No, no, we want to represent modern American society, and focus on American minorities. <- Goalpost moved again.
B: Alright, then you should feature native-americans, latinos...

And at that point I don't think I've ever seen a decent response. "They're too much of a minority" isn't a great argument when you're the one pushing for minorities to be represented in the first place.

The truth is simpler, certain minorities are trendy right now, and producers want to cash in to that.

That isn't necessarily wrong. It's greedy, creatively bankrupt, and slightly racist. But not ill-intended. Although it should be obvious to anyone when a movie or a show is sincere about their representation, and when they're just virtue signaling for money, and anyone not getting a paycheck shouldn't be parroting their excuses as if they believed them.

This is a good post. Unfortunately, many people these days feel the reflexive need to jump to the defense of these companies merely because they get criticized by the wrong crowd. This makes these sorts of conversations incredibly tiring.

Did it really look so bad? I mean I've got my criticisms of the casting, but I thought in terms of the overall look it was good. That opening shot could have been straight out of the Jackson films. I don't know what people were expecting. What could they have done to satisfy people who thought it looked generic?

I guess the shots just have that weird marvel CGI "gloss" all over them. The Jackson movies had this gritty, realistic feeling of a lived-in world which was achieved by the clever combination of CGI and practical effects like models for the cities. They also made great use of the new color grading technologies that were becoming available at that time to give every scene a different mood and create more vibrant images that in some cases look more real than the real world. The Jackson movies also seem to have much better camera work that gives off a very serene feeling and places an immense sense of gravity on the objects and characters in the right moments.

Now, I know that they did some costly practical effects for that teaser scene in the water but when it comes to the other shots I couldn't really tell if they incorporated any. It's like with the Star Wars prequels which also made use of a lot of practical effects but ultimately got drowned out by the overbearing use of CGI.

[AcidicSyn]

My point was that it wasn't subtle and happened constantly. Going by the books he barely used his sword in comparison. It's a movie thing. And it was not really subtle either. Skies were filled with lightning seen tens to hundred miles away, setting entire circles of trees on fire. Casting light so bright it consumed entire flight of Nazguls.

There were more subtle moments of magic usage as well yes, just as there is in DnD but there were enough of these blazing moments as well and typically in almoust every battle scene he is involved.

Not to mention he was the wielder of the flame of Anor and bearer of the ring of fire, which he absolutely used (fire and light magic) LIBERALLY while the fellowship was running from the orcs in Moria (and every other combat encounter). Heck, he even spoke words of command in the same sequence. Dude flung spells as casually as legolas shot arrows. The idea that Gandalf was subtle about magic was, like you said- a movie thing.

In Galadriels case, the way she fought at Dol Goldur in the hobbit movie was actually one of the things I liked about it, I feel like she'd fight more like that than with a traditional sword or bow. But, then again, in this show she doesn't have Nenya yet, so perhaps she changes alot after getting it.

[dlld]

"Generic" is the go-to word parroted by people, especially fans of a franchise, who just want to hate on something when they cannot say why. It means nothing, and people probably use it without even knowing what it means. Some people hate "The Rings of Power" because of brown elves and clean-shaven dwarf princesses, so the trailer must be bad. Since they find nothing objectively bad about it, they resort to "it looks like any other fantasy show or movie (Wheel of Time, Narnia, etc)". It's "generic". Well, of course, it is a fantasy show, they would share some tropes. It's like when, in new Star Trek shows, they introduce a new ship or a new race. Well, some people hate Kurtzman's guts, so of course the new ship must be bad, so they say it's "generic." It's not that there's anything wrong about it, it's just that it looks like a ship from any other Sci-Fi show, it does not scream "Star Trek", so it's bad and Kurtzman "hates the fans", etc. Well of course it does not scream Star Trek, it's new! The first Borg ship, when it was introduced, did not scream Star Trek at all. And it was a cube, can you have more "generic" than that? Guess fans were a bit more open-minded back then...

I have watched all of the ESO cinematics, they have nice visuals but the best word I can describe them with is 'soulless' i feel absolutely nothing when watching them, no hype, excitement, joy, interest etc. Meanwhile this now 16 year old cinematic still gets me pumped even-though i never even played the game it was tied to. Likewise I just watched the latest SWToR cinematic and thought it was pretty cool and interesting even though i despise the game and never even been a starwars fan. Similar to ESO, watching the new lotr trailer made me feel nothing. People saying it's generic are likely having the same feeling or rather lack of.

[Xath]

Everything looks way too clean it's a consistent issue in Amazon productions that was one thing Reacher actually did well stuff that should be dirty looked dirty he actually sustained damage and grime it didn't just not happen or disappear. Even the promo shots there is nothing to show having gone through battles or even worn the clothes more than 5 mins.

[Orby]

Everything looks way too clean it's a consistent issue in Amazon productions that was one thing Reacher actually did well stuff that should be dirty looked dirty he actually sustained damage and grime it didn't just not happen or disappear. Even the promo shots there is nothing to show having gone through battles or even worn the clothes more than 5 mins.

Something that Amazon got to learn to do is add filters. Wheel of time has this issue too everything lacks a style or identity, its too clean and polished.

Outside of that the teaser trailer looks whatever to me, its not made me any more pumped or any less disappointed I am exactly where I started. It entirely relies on the story for me, if you can deliver an engaging story (9from which so far has promise), then I can get past many of its faults.. :P

[druchii5]

I have watched all of the ESO cinematics, they have nice visuals but the best word I can describe them with is 'soulless' i feel absolutely nothing when watching them, no hype, excitement, joy, interest etc. Meanwhile this now 16 year old cinematic still gets me pumped even-though i never even played the game it was tied to. Likewise I just watched the latest SWToR cinematic and thought it was pretty cool and interesting even though i despise the game and never even been a starwars fan. Similar to ESO, watching the new lotr trailer made me feel nothing. People saying it's generic are likely having the same feeling or rather lack of.

I just came to say that the Mark of Chaos cinematic trailer was super badass. I've watched it so many times. Can't say I disagree with your analogy here.

[Koriani]

Damn...25 new pages to read full of posts of people talking about their own fears and own fantasies for a show made up in their minds - since not a single minute of the show has actually aired yet.

One of the issues of the internet - giving people all the room to discuss things they have very little to no actual information on. And since humans have a need to discuss things - we just eat our own tail and rip each other apart; all based on nothing but the imaginations and biases of our own minds. Humans are silly.

[Makabreska]

Random find of the day. Someone made a Reddit post containing combined pre-release criticism of 2001 trilogy. Many arguments seem weirdly familiar:

https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/commen...riticized_pjs/

[Syegfryed]

A lot of the criticism back then were valid - wanting something faithful, not many changes -, the movie just did extremely good to overcome the changes.

To this day, i think the elves helping in rohan was damn stupid, make no sense and was detrimental to the story overall, as they just show up to die and take credit from the humans who were supposed to stand alone.