Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

And what in this green earth have to do with grand elf? where is grand related to staff? you attempt at gotcha didn't work here since even that they fucked up

It is to show that tolkien used a simple name as inspiration. He is like an elf holding a staff. Let's call him staff elf. Not really that clever, right? Yet you attack the show for using the same sort of cleverness that Tolkien used.

[kenn9530]

they are required to do that, because they are telling a story

You do not get to write the show for themselves, they do not get to NOT write shit just because some people have their brain shut down while watching to not notice their clear mistakes.



You are ignoring the reality that, all the time this happens, it is explained/told/show in the series

When it doesn't, it is because the show is garbage.



It is, because its literally the only reference and proof

Youa re the one saying they send more, you made that up to fill the plothole the writers left

A good show would have said they would be sending 100 ships, a even better show would actually show 100 ships sailling

So tell me why the films didn't mention gandalf spending 17 years researching the ring and looking for golum or other instances of long distance travel that the films make it look like just a few days, its actually plain stupid to explain every instance of travelling long distances, this is just common sense things you should already know and boring things like logistics don't need to be explained.

It doesn't matter how many ships they show, most tv shows/movies don't show everything that is happening in the background, the logistics of moving and army or how many ships they are sending, its pointless information that would waste what little time a tv show has in it already on worthless information.

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Then the entire sabotage subplot is more of a waste of time, since it would not have impacted their transport at all. Even if they had no ships, you could use your imagination to fill in the blanks to say a thousand giant eagles came to ferry them across the seas. Anything can be magically resolved by imagination. It doesn't mean it's a good answer. Unrealistic bullshit will get called out, and this is one of those very cases.

What's actually unrealistic is you expecting an army to be moved with just 3 ships, you should accept that unimportant factors that would waste time in a tv show like logistics happen that you don't need to see visually represented, the films also remove pointless things like this because other things are far more important to include rather than show caravans of supplies, they just show the armies themselves not everything needed that supports them.

[Syegfryed]

It is to show that tolkien used a simple name as inspiration. He is like an elf holding a staff. Let's call him staff elf. Not really that clever, right? Yet you attack the show for using the same sort of cleverness that Tolkien used.

There is a gigantic difference between Tolkien taking a cool name and using for his characters and the showrruners being retarded wanting to make a origin story for his name whith a stupid pun like 'grand elf = gandalf" and its actually insulting you want to compare the two

[Triceron]

What's actually unrealistic is you expecting an army to be moved with just 3 ships, you should accept that unimportant factors that would waste time in a tv show like logistics happen that you don't need to see visually represented, the films also remove pointless things like this because other things are far more important to include rather than show caravans of supplies, they just show the armies themselves not everything needed that supports them.

If it weren't important, they wouldn't have needed to show the ships leaving at all.

[Syegfryed]

So tell me why the films didn't mention gandalf spending 17 years researching the ring

Because in the movies he did not took 17 years, the movies, much like the show, condense the timeline, to give a sense of urgency

What's actually unrealistic is you expecting an army to be moved with just 3 ships,

It is unrealistic, but the showrunners/writers don't know that, because they are bad, they genuinely tough 3 ships was enough.

[Relikk]

Fanfiction should never, ever be produced "professionally" and distributed on such a scale.

What a fucking travesty this show is. Nuke it. Nuke it now.

[rhorle]

There is a gigantic difference between Tolkien taking a cool name and using for his characters and the showrruners being retarded wanting to make a origin story for his name whith a stupid pun like 'grand elf = gandalf" and its actually insulting you want to compare the two

The difference is your hate.

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Fanfiction should never, ever be produced "professionally" and distributed on such a scale.

The peter jackson movies are fan fiction. Everything not produced by Tolkien (or his son/estate) is fan fiction.

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It is unrealistic, but the showrunners/writters don't know that, because they are bad, they genuinely tought 3 ships was enough.

So did Peter Jackson. Is he now considered a hack?

[SilverLion]

The difference is your hate.

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The peter jackson movies are fan fiction. Everything not produced by Tolkien (or his son/estate) is fan fiction.

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So did Peter Jackson. Is he now considered a hack?

People loved Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War didn't get this much backlash despite sexy Shelob. Which ironically the mildest bit of writing in that game. Both games are effectively fanfiction too.

I genuinely think this boils down to a couple of camps: Weird fantasy gatekeepers who are badly masking their weird bigotry, Tolkien fans who are getting caught up in said gatekeeping but otherwise wouldn't be so incensed by a mid TV show, and then rational people who agree it's a mid TV show and either choose to stick it out or turn it off like responsible adults and not let it become this bizarre hatred.

Like, I don't know anyone out there who's claiming the show doesn't have a ton of issues. I do see a lot of people demanding the show not exist because they don't enjoy it. Is the criteria for media existing how much a particular fan base likes it? What happened to (mid) art just existing and dying on it's own lack of interest?

As a more positive and useful aside: The Gandalf subplot was OK, but man did I feel the halflings got just shafted at the end. That kinda sucked. Though getting Tom Bombadil (and a singing one at that) was absolutely fantastic. Highlight of the season for me. I have a hunch that glade the elves were in at the end will become Imladris, and I genuinely enjoyed things like Gil-Galad's spear, the Easter egg of Narsil, and the absolute bastardry of Pharazon. The Ent-Wife was neat too.

Stuff that didn't land for me, the weird romance between Galadriel and Elrond, it's not the worst but I just don't enjoy antagonistic tension turning romantic like that, personally. I was having a tough time with the topography too, like I know where these locations are and it was hard to follow how we got from Lindon to halfway through the Barrow Downs, which, I'm pretty sure the ones we know of don't exist yet. Wasn't a huge fan of how Adar went down either.

All in all, it's a mid show. Fun fights, neat practical effects on the orcs and some decent ish acting, but it literally doesn't hurt the LOTR brand, because that's not possible at this point.

[alach]

People loved Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War didn't get this much backlash despite sexy Shelob. Which ironically the mildest bit of writing in that game. Both games are effectively fanfiction too.

I genuinely think this boils down to a couple of camps: Weird fantasy gatekeepers who are badly masking their weird bigotry, Tolkien fans who are getting caught up in said gatekeeping but otherwise wouldn't be so incensed by a mid TV show, and then rational people who agree it's a mid TV show and either choose to stick it out or turn it off like responsible adults and not let it become this bizarre hatred.

Like, I don't know anyone out there who's claiming the show doesn't have a ton of issues. I do see a lot of people demanding the show not exist because they don't enjoy it. Is the criteria for media existing how much a particular fan base likes it? What happened to (mid) art just existing and dying on it's own lack of interest?

As a more positive and useful aside: The Gandalf subplot was OK, but man did I feel the halflings got just shafted at the end. That kinda sucked. Though getting Tom Bombadil (and a singing one at that) was absolutely fantastic. Highlight of the season for me. I have a hunch that glade the elves were in at the end will become Imladris, and I genuinely enjoyed things like Gil-Galad's spear, the Easter egg of Narsil, and the absolute bastardry of Pharazon. The Ent-Wife was neat too.

Stuff that didn't land for me, the weird romance between Galadriel and Elrond, it's not the worst but I just don't enjoy antagonistic tension turning romantic like that, personally. I was having a tough time with the topography too, like I know where these locations are and it was hard to follow how we got from Lindon to halfway through the Barrow Downs, which, I'm pretty sure the ones we know of don't exist yet. Wasn't a huge fan of how Adar went down either.

All in all, it's a mid show. Fun fights, neat practical effects on the orcs and some decent ish acting, but it literally doesn't hurt the LOTR brand, because that's not possible at this point.

Well said, I agree with you on all points. Nice to hear from someone level-headed.
And just a quick reply to the blistering sarcastic wit at my earlier comment, I don't wanna get in a debate about it, but this show was well documented at the time to have an absolute boatload of negative reviews and 1 stars before the first episode even aired. The end, see you next season. (Maybe)

[SilverLion]

Well said, I agree with you on all points. Nice to hear from someone level-headed.
And just a quick reply to the blistering sarcastic wit at my earlier comment, I don't wanna get in a debate about it, but this show was well documented at the time to have an absolute boatload of negative reviews and 1 stars before the first episode even aired. The end, see you next season. (Maybe)

Cheers! I'm just a grown adult who doesn't suffer from baby rage whenever a piece of media doesn't suit me. My entire identity isn't absorbed by a dead guy, or who I was 25 years ago.

There's a time and a place to holding something dear to your heart and having it be meaningful, but we've long lost the plot on that. We're so deep in the "I hate this, it's a personal attack on everything I stand for" brain rot when it's as simple as "Oh, no thanks, I'll stick with X"

I love Resident Evil. I can't imagine getting this upset over the god awful films. They're terrible. But I just don't watch them. (And God, the Monster Hunter film was worse than all of RoP combined).

[bledgor]

Cheers! I'm just a grown adult who doesn't suffer from baby rage whenever a piece of media doesn't suit me. My entire identity isn't absorbed by a dead guy, or who I was 25 years ago.

There's a time and a place to holding something dear to your heart and having it be meaningful, but we've long lost the plot on that. We're so deep in the "I hate this, it's a personal attack on everything I stand for" brain rot when it's as simple as "Oh, no thanks, I'll stick with X"

I love Resident Evil. I can't imagine getting this upset over the god awful films. They're terrible. But I just don't watch them. (And God, the Monster Hunter film was worse than all of RoP combined).

You can still be an adult, and be pissed when something you love and cherish is pissed on. Telling people that are upset with the massive lore changes, the complete bastardization of the Tolkien story that they are baby raging is a gatekeeping of its own sort. You are quite dismissive of people making dozens of points of issues, only for the defenders of the show to call them ists and phobes.

Another point is this is the most expensive show ever made, with some of the greatest lore as its source, and as you admit it is MID at best (I disagree, think it is subpar at best). That should make everyone upset, as so much money and effort was wasted because of hack producers, imagine the amazing story, visuals, songs, etc we could have gotten with actual competent directors. Instead we get this turd, which makes film studios less likely to try this in the future, and to use far less money, meaning we might not get the chance at crafting such epics. The wasted potential is enormous, and this failure will have ramifications for future endeavors.

Finally you have the lies Payne and Mckay spouted constantly, about how faithful and true to the books they were going to be, yet at almost every instance they deviated from the lore, they ignored the tones, themes and beliefs of Tolkien to insert their own opinions. To watch two clowns (and honestly the rest of the writing team) lie to our face as they give us a subpar story, then call us racist and phobes? It would infuriate anyone.

Edit: Not to mention the fact the show lost between 60 and 70% of its audience, is a greater point that it messed up greatly.

[SilverLion]

You can still be an adult, and be pissed when something you love and cherish is pissed on. Telling people that are upset with the massive lore changes, the complete bastardization of the Tolkien story that they are baby raging is a gatekeeping of its own sort. You are quite dismissive of people making dozens of points of issues, only for the defenders of the show to call them ists and phobes.

Another point is this is the most expensive show ever made, with some of the greatest lore as its source, and as you admit it is MID at best (I disagree, think it is subpar at best). That should make everyone upset, as so much money and effort was wasted because of hack producers, imagine the amazing story, visuals, songs, etc we could have gotten with actual competent directors. Instead we get this turd, which makes film studios less likely to try this in the future, and to use far less money, meaning we might not get the chance at crafting such epics. The wasted potential is enormous, and this failure will have ramifications for future endeavors.

Finally you have the lies Payne and Mckay spouted constantly, about how faithful and true to the books they were going to be, yet at almost every instance they deviated from the lore, they ignored the tones, themes and beliefs of Tolkien to insert their own opinions. To watch two clowns (and honestly the rest of the writing team) lie to our face as they give us a subpar story, then call us racist and phobes? It would infuriate anyone.

Edit: Not to mention the fact the show lost between 60 and 70% of its audience, is a greater point that it messed up greatly.

You've directly proven my point. And you're attacking a point I didn't make. Every time someone says "maybe don't act like a lunatic about something that isn't really a big deal", the response is "DON'T DISMISS MY FEELINGS".

You say you can be an adult but I don't buy that. We tell small children that "accidents happen". "Sometimes stuff doesn't go how we wont." We say "feel your feelings, be upset, cry. But don't go slapping toys out of other people's hands because you're upset." This is where we are. Slapping toys out of other people's hands because some folks didn't get what they wanted. It's dishonest. You claimed that people are being called bigots for their admittedly bigoted criticism? You quite literally just argued for the ability to say whatever you want, however you want to, under the guise of criticism and that criticism, regardless of how valid or not valid, needs to be respected.

So no, it's not gate keeping to call out people being nasty or excessive. It's called setting limits and holding people who cross them to account.

Lastly, you said "that should make anyone angry" that so much potential was squandered. You're proving my point yet again. No, it doesn't make me angry. Why? Because as much as I love the Legendarium, none of this affects my daily life. There are things in my life that deserve actual rage and ferocity and a mid TV show being mid isn't one of them. I don't care if they lied about the source material. I don't care about holding TV exec money men to account because you're not going to stop them from lying in the future. You won't increase the standards of your TV shows in the future. It serves no purpose beyond just venting frustration. On top of that, it's absolutely untrue that if this show fails, that nobody else will try again later. No way. They'll try again eventually, maybe 10 years, maybe be more, may be less, but this stuff never leaves the zeitgeist.

No matter which way you slice this, defending over reactions as reasonable isn't a flex. And calling out overreactions isn't gate keeping. If children can learn to be upset about their little lives and not inflicting their own frustration on others, adults can too. Never once did I claim you're not allowed to be upset. I did say that acting like you were personally slighted, which you absolutely do in your post, shouldn't be taken seriously. You weren't harmed. Nothing changes. A mid show was mid. The earth still turns. Disappointing? Sure, but it's time to be grown ups, let it go and walk away.

[Raisei]

You say you can be an adult but I don't buy that. We tell small children that "accidents happen". "Sometimes stuff doesn't go how we wont." We say "feel your feelings, be upset, cry. But don't go slapping toys out of other people's hands because you're upset." This is where we are. Slapping toys out of other people's hands because some folks didn't get what they wanted. It's dishonest. You claimed that people are being called bigots for their admittedly bigoted criticism? You quite literally just argued for the ability to say whatever you want, however you want to, under the guise of criticism and that criticism, regardless of how valid or not valid, needs to be respected.

This is you being quite dismissive of two things with quite a lot more value then "Muh feelings".

1) The show cost 1 BILLION Dollars. Guess whose money that is? Yes, the money of the people with a Prime sub. They are absolutely justified to demand better quality for the money they spend or cancel their subs if Amazon just keeps throwing money out of the window. It's like you are saying people should shut up when politicians are throwing their taxes out the window.

2) Tolkiens works are THE fantasy works. They are not some book written by some random author with a fanbase of a couple of thousand. These books are the origin of almost all fantasy tropes we know today. Take for example the entirety of the Warcraft universe or a huuuuuge thing like the D&D lore, they are both built on Tolkiens basis. All of this started with the Professor.
Tolkien has thus influenced a very big part of our western culture and for that he and his work absolutely deserve respect.
This show and the showrunners do not have any respect and that is something they absolutely need to be called out for.

[Syegfryed]

The difference is your hate.

The difference i one guy taking a name that existed and the other is hacks trying to come up with a origin story who have nothing to do with the name in the first place

The peter jackson movies are fan fiction. Everything not produced by Tolkien (or his son/estate) is fan fiction.

Always the dumb defense of citing the movies to hide the show crap, ALWAYS

So did Peter Jackson. Is he now considered a hack?

He didn't.

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Well said, I agree with you on all points. Nice to hear from someone level-headed.)

The classic "if you agree with me you are someone level-headed, if you disagree with me you are a bigot"

People loved Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War didn't get this much backlash despite sexy Shelob. Which ironically the mildest bit of writing in that game. Both games are effectively fanfiction too.

People liked the gameplay but many didn't like the story and the games did suffer backlash

It will not get the same as the show because its different kinds of media, the reach is much bigger

The games also, never tried to be canon and tied with the movies.

I genuinely think this boils down to a couple of camps:

Yeah, im sure you would think that, either cry bigotry and blame fans and not actually see the fundamental flaws in the show.

Anny retional people agree this is a BAD show, not mid, bad. Unless you think stuff like CW late shows was mid as well.

I don't know anyone out there who's claiming the show doesn't have a ton of issues.

Are you blind? in this very two pages people were literally claiming that, even saying plotholes of the show are not issues, its the audience fault for not assuming stuff they never implied.

[rhorle]

Always the dumb defense of citing the movies to hide the show crap, ALWAYS

It isn't hiding anything about the show. Calling something you don't like fan fiction is dumb. Everything not created as official canon is fan fiction. Rings of Power, Jackson films, Shadow or War, LOTR Online, etc are all fan fictions. They take Tolkien's work and create their own version. Some are good. Some are not. The need to use fan fiction as an insult is silly.

He didn't.

When Aragorn showed up to pelennor fields in the movies he only had two or three ships. In the books he had more then that along with a bunch of others. Peter Jackson cut it down and didn't show the entire pirate fleet. They were presumably present because how would three ships of pirates make a difference at pelennor fields?

[Syegfryed]

You've directly proven my point. And you're attacking a point I didn't make. Every time someone says "maybe don't act like a lunatic about something that isn't really a big deal", the response is "DON'T DISMISS MY FEELINGS"..

No one is acting like a lunatic, you are using a fallacy to dismiss other people criticism appealing to ridicule

In the other post you tried to have the moral high ground by calling yourself "an grown up adult", this is also show the condescending attitude towards people by dismissing their opinion as childish.

Which is funny to comment about "dismiss my feelings" when the whole point of people defending this garbage is because they have this mindset that if they like something, IT CANT BE BAD: how could I like something that isn't good? no, other people are wrong! something based entirely on feelings.

[rhorle]

Which is funny to comment about "dismiss my feelings" when the whole point of people defending this garbage is because they have this mindset that if they like something, IT CANT BE BAD: how could I like something that isn't good? no, other people are wrong! something based entirely on feelings.

Do you honestly believe that? As the people who think the show is bad are the ones showing the biggest problem with people who do not agree with them. You've even created a council, and forum signature, to attack people who like shows that you do not.

[Syegfryed]

It isn't hiding anything about the show

It is, every time a critic about the show is presented goober will cry "b-b-b-but in the movies!!" in a vain tentative to dismiss the critic

When Aragorn showed up to pelennor fields in the movies he only had two or three ships. In the books he had more then that along with a bunch of others. Peter Jackson cut it down and didn't show the entire pirate fleet. They were presumably present because how would three ships of pirates make a difference at pelennor fields?

What the fuck are you talking about, in the movie he use the army of the dead to take the ships and fight the battle

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Great performance for the most expensive tv show ever.

Do you honestly believe that?

Yeah, it is a fact proven by the people.

You've even created a council, and forum signature

I mean, its the truth, people defend bad shows all the time, this included

[SilverLion]

This is you being quite dismissive of two things with quite a lot more value then "Muh feelings".

1) The show cost 1 BILLION Dollars. Guess whose money that is? Yes, the money of the people with a Prime sub. They are absolutely justified to demand better quality for the money they spend or cancel their subs if Amazon just keeps throwing money out of the window. It's like you are saying people should shut up when politicians are throwing their taxes out the window.

2) Tolkiens works are THE fantasy works. They are not some book written by some random author with a fanbase of a couple of thousand. These books are the origin of almost all fantasy tropes we know today. Take for example the entirety of the Warcraft universe or a huuuuuge thing like the D&D lore, they are both built on Tolkiens basis. All of this started with the Professor.
Tolkien has thus influenced a very big part of our western culture and for that he and his work absolutely deserve respect.
This show and the showrunners do not have any respect and that is something they absolutely need to be called out for.

I'm sorry, no. None of this is equivalent to taxes. You've once again, proved my point. This is leisure. You have the option of just taking your leisure elsewhere. You do not have the option to not pay taxes.

On your second point, I just don't really care. I don't put people on a pedestal for anything they do, no matter how influential. I don't "respect" a franchise just because of its reach. It's not a person. Hell I respect Tolkien more as a scholar than an author, because quite frankly he was a better one, and that's saying a lot because he was pretty good as an author too. But I don't respect "his works" as some ethereal entity that is deserving on its own because of pedigree. If you do, that's fine, but expecting everyone else to is ridiculous. And even if you do, that still doesn't justify being nasty. So the point remains.

No one is acting like a lunatic, you are using a fallacy to dismiss other people criticism appealing to ridicule

In the other post you tried to have the moral high ground by calling yourself "an grown up adult", this is also show the condescending attitude towards people by dismissing their opinion as childish.

Which is funny to comment about "dismiss my feelings" when the whole point of people defending this garbage is because they have this mindset that if they like something, IT CANT BE BAD: how could I like something that isn't good? no, other people are wrong! something based entirely on feelings

This entire post is kind of lunacy, so I guess checkmate yourself for own-goaling. If you act like a child, you get treated like a child. Maybe engage in discourse that isn't just rage baiting and I might take what you say seriously.

[Raisei]

I'm sorry, no. None of this is equivalent to taxes. You've once again, proved my point. This is leisure. You have the option of just taking your leisure elsewhere. You do not have the option to not pay taxes.

So people should always be okay with the product they receive for their money, no matter if it is garbage? Heard of a thing called "refund" or "customer complaint"?

On your second point, I just don't really care.

In this case you have no horse in this race and I have no clue why you are even chiming in on this. I personally consider this as part of common knowledge and a well-rounded education. Especially in front of all the shit we are being given by Hollywood in the last decade or so. I demand people to do better because I consider culture and even pop culture as a very important thing. You do not. I suppose we will not agree.