Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If that's the point, why are you asking for an explanation for Dwarves being white then? Why would you need an explanation for their skin color?

why are you asking for an explanation for Dwarves being black then? Why would you need an explanation for their skin color?

One scenario is clearly non-controversial, the other is clearly controversial,

so what do you just function off of herd mentality? If no one cared and it wasn’t controversial would your views on it change?

I can only talk to you (and select others here) about it and try and get your own views on it not the masses that make it controversial, and thus far the only thing I’ve been able to grasp is that you only care because others care and are not willing to entertain any thought beyond that.

[Triceron]

why are you asking for an explanation for Dwarves being black then? Why would you need an explanation for their skin color?

Because there has never been a Black Dwarf depicted in mIddle Earth ever before Rings of Power. You do realize this, yes? You would agree that Black skinned Dwarves have not been widely recognized as being normal in the popular culture depictions of Middle Earth, right?

Expectations and controversies. That is what this is about. You seem to forgot the elephant is still in the room. You're literally asking why we need to address the elephant in the room.

If Black dwarves in Middle Earth was already well established and accepted, we wouldn:t need to talk about it.

so what do you just function off of herd mentality? If no one cared and it wasn’t controversial would your views on it change?

If you started this all by acknowledging my examples of an elephant in the room, then you should already know this entire discussion is contextually specific to addressing controversial adaptations. Yes, I wouldn't care to fix an adaptation that isn't broken. Controversies don't exist in PJ's depictions of Dwarves (In LOTR) and therefore wouldn't manifest any need to 'fix something that isn't broken'.

But hey, you missed the point. And the wheel turns ever onwards

[jbombard]

Gotta agree with Triceron. There are no depictions of dark skinned dwarves in any of the literature, and it dwarves generally don't live in places where they would evolve to have darker skin.

At least the hobbits' ancestors were supposedly men, so it is plausable there were dark skinned hobbits. That said, by the time of LoTR the Harfoots, Stoors and Fallohides had merged into one race, the Hobbits, and the Hobbits skin color is light brown to white. The time from Rings of Power to Lord of the Rings is only 3000 years, which isn't a whole lot in terms of evolution... especially for a race that comes to age around 33 and lives to be around 100. So one would think if there were dark skinned Harfoots, Stoors and Fallohides, the Hobbits in Lord of the Rings would have been brown, but lore says otherwise.

[Eapoe]

Because there has never been a Black Dwarf depicted in mIddle Earth ever before Rings of Power. You do realize this, yes? You would agree that Black skinned Dwarves have not been widely recognized as being normal in the popular culture depictions of Middle Earth, right?

Expectations and controversies. That is what this is about. You seem to forgot the elephant is still in the room. You're literally asking why we need to address the elephant in the room.

If Black dwarves in Middle Earth was already well established and accepted, we wouldn:t need to talk about it.



If you started this all by acknowledging my examples of an elephant in the room, then you should already know this entire discussion is contextually specific to addressing controversial adaptations. Yes, I wouldn't care to fix an adaptation that isn't broken. Controversies don't exist in PJ's depictions of Dwarves (In LOTR) and therefore wouldn't manifest any need to 'fix something that isn't broken'.

But hey, you missed the point. And the wheel turns ever onwards

Okay, so after some digging, Tolkien never described skin tone about dwarves in the books. At least none that I found. It’s stated that he based them off of Norse mythology.
Digging into that, there isn’t that much in depth information about Norse dwarves appearance, and that they range from having a formless, glowing appearance, to looking like humans, and there is actually a reference to a race called dökkálfar (elves that are typically identified as dwarves) as “blacker than pitch.”
It would seem that Tolkien, the actual source, wasn’t concerned about skin tone of the dwarves, and the movies just happened to use an all white cast.

I also came across this page: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Blacklocks which has this passage about one of the original 7 father’s houses:
2021: The Lord of the Rings Online:

The House corresponding to the Blacklocks is called the Temámir. Dark-skinned with raven-black hair, they are considered the wisest of the Seven Houses.

It’s not like this show is the first time to have non white dwarves.

[jbombard]

Okay, so after some digging, Tolkien never described skin tone about dwarves in the books. At least none that I found. It’s stated that he based them off of Norse mythology.
Digging into that, there isn’t that much in depth information about Norse dwarves appearance, and that they range from having a formless, glowing appearance, to looking like humans, and there is actually a reference to a race called dökkálfar (elves that are typically identified as dwarves) as “blacker than pitch.”
It would seem that Tolkien, the actual source, wasn’t concerned about skin tone of the dwarves, and the movies just happened to use an all white cast.

I also came across this page: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Blacklocks which has this passage about one of the original 7 father’s houses:
2021: The Lord of the Rings Online:

The House corresponding to the Blacklocks is called the Temámir. Dark-skinned with raven-black hair, they are considered the wisest of the Seven Houses.

It’s not like this show is the first time to have non white dwarves.

Correct it is not the first time, but this is not lore this is creative license by Lord of the Rings Online, and likely added for the same reason as Rings of Power, inclusion.

Blacklocks themselves were named for their dark hair and beards. Aulë created 7 dwarves that became the fathers of all dwarves. They were all cut from the same stone/clay so to speak. It doesn't really make sense to just have one different. Also when you look at old illustrations they are white. Rings of Power have creative license to do what they want, but let's not pretend any of it is based on lore because there is just no evidence.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Because there has never been a Black Dwarf depicted in mIddle Earth ever before Rings of Power. You do realize this, yes? You would agree that Black skinned Dwarves have not been widely recognized as being normal in the popular culture depictions of Middle Earth, right?

I really don’t get how you can type this out and still not get it.

Replace the word black with white and Rop with the PJ movies or the 1978 movie. There has never been a white dwarf depicted in middle earth before them or what ever other random media point you want to grab as Tolkien never made the dwarfs white and some one other then him had to make that choice for the first time.

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They were all cut from the same stone/clay so to speak. It doesn't really make sense to just have one different. Also when you look at old illustrations they are white. Rings of Power have creative license to do what they want, but let's not pretend any of it is based on lore because there is just no evidence.

This same thing apply’s to white dwarfs there is no lore basis as Tolkien didn’t pen a skin tone or make any illustrations of them him self and any one other then him is using the same creation license Rop or a game is they have just been doing it for a lot longer.

[eschatological]

Because there has never been a Black Dwarf depicted in mIddle Earth ever before Rings of Power. You do realize this, yes? You would agree that Black skinned Dwarves have not been widely recognized as being normal in the popular culture depictions of Middle Earth, right?

Yes, but the point is that that was a result of the society we live in where "white" is "normal" and needs no explanation, and not Tolkein, who didn't specify the skin tone of his dwarves. The racial problems of past society in depicting things in entertainment don't cement them in canon forever - if anything, that's even more of a reason to address the issue by showing variations.

Like, surely you recognize that the normalization of whiteness in casting is not because white is normal and black/brown is abnormal (quite the opposite, considering the world's demographics, actually), but because Western society has been dominated by racist ideas that say that.

[rogoth]

Yes, but the point is that that was a result of the society we live in where "white" is "normal" and needs no explanation, and not Tolkein, who didn't specify the skin tone of his dwarves. The racial problems of past society in depicting things in entertainment don't cement them in canon forever - if anything, that's even more of a reason to address the issue by showing variations.

Like, surely you recognize that the normalization of whiteness in casting is not because white is normal and black/brown is abnormal (quite the opposite, considering the world's demographics, actually), but because Western society has been dominated by racist ideas that say that.

so you would agree that the Amazon hiring policy mandates that at least 30% of a cast MUST be 'diverse' (aka black/female/gay or lesbian etc) and will actively hire people based on these characteristics over a potentially better choice option who may be a white person is incredibly racist?

or does that kind of racism get a pass because it's going against 'the norm'?

[Triceron]

Yes, but the point is that that was a result of the society we live in where "white" is "normal" and needs no explanation, and not Tolkein, who didn't specify the skin tone of his dwarves. The racial problems of past society in depicting things in entertainment don't cement them in canon forever - if anything, that's even more of a reason to address the issue by showing variations.

And I would argue it would be best to ease that in, not have it stand out like a sore thumb. The entire reason any controversy exists is because it is not an eased in concept at all.

And it's not like we haven't seen other skintones in LOTR. We HAVE seen them. They came in the form of the Easterlings and the Harad. IMO it's not exactly a matter of skintone, moreso a matter of expectations and what makes sense for the setting.

IMO one way to handle adding darker skin tones is by folding it into the lore and easing in the concept. Like introducing a group of good Easterling or Harad characters who have travelled to the west, and have been integrated into western society while still retaining elements of their original culture. It becomes normalized in a way that makes sense in the setting. We could follow the journey, see how society reacts, and slowly build to how they manage to be welcomed and integrated into society. Is it through trade? Is it through diplomacy? Heroism? Whatever it may be, it would be able to make itself welcomed. And I say this because we have PLENTY of examples where this has worked in other mediums and franchises.

Like, surely you recognize that the normalization of whiteness in casting is not because white is normal and black/brown is abnormal (quite the opposite, considering the world's demographics, actually), but because Western society has been dominated by racist ideas that say that.

I would use War of the Rohirrim as an example then, which has the power to make ANY character into ANY skin tone as they please, continues to stick to a depiction of a primarily white-dominant Rohan. It is a choice. It is not a choice out of racist ideals. It is a choice out of faithfulness to the traditional depictions of Rohan over the decades of art interpretations that we've had. It is a choice that makes sense for the setting of Rohan, as established by decades of adaptations. And I say this as someone who has the full expectation of any level of diversity existing in animation, a medium that is not limited by the skin tones of actors. I have no stakes in needing an animation to be portrayed by an 'all white cast', it's ANIMATION!

I don't think it is just about normalization of white casting. I like to think this is about what has been established as an expectation of the characters of Middle Earth. The setting itself has expectations behind it. Choosing to abruptly challenge those expectations will attract attention to any changes. It chooses to make a big deal out of it for itself.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The setting itself has expectations behind it.

No it doesn’t. The setting never establishes such expectations which is why no matter how often it’s brought up no one can ever source Tolkien making dwarfs white.

You can say adpations have such an expectation because of how they have been done but the setting it self does not.

[Triceron]

No it doesn’t. The setting never establishes such expectations

PJ's Lord of the Rings has set that expectation. The animated series has established expectations.

You can say adpations have such an expectation because of how they have been done but the setting it self does not.

Then I will clarify that statement that the setting has expectations BECAUSE of decades of adaptations that have informed the collective audience of what these races, locations, and peoples are expected to look like. The setting itself currently has expectations behind it. And considering how strong an impression PJ's vision has on the franchise, it's not as simple as 'race swapping' in diversity and expecting everything to be gravy.


Like I said, if it wasn't a big deal, no one would care. Are we going to pretend that no one cares about skin tones in RoP today? That no one is making a big deal out of it today? I think what ROP has done has polarized the fan base more than it has made diversity acceptable. In my opinion, diversity is not being normalized for the setting of Middle Earth whatsoever. It is instead dividing the fan base. And part of that is due to the poor execution of ideas, the poor choices made.

I see this being similar to the Little Mermaid. Race swapping Ariel has not made it acceptable to the wide audience. It has instead polarized Disney fans into people who are accepting it, and people who choose to 'stick to the original'. In my opinion, if they wanted to introduce a popular black mermaid character, they should have created a new story with a new character, and simply made it acceptable alongside what existed before, rather than race swap an existing beloved character. My two cents. Like how Zendaya portrays 'MJ', but is left open enough to not be a direct replacement of Mary Jane, and in turn she's much more accepted with far less controversy than I've seen over the Little Mermaid.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

PJ's Lord of the Rings has set that expectation. The animated series has established expectations.

And both of those are adaptions of the setting not the setting it self, the setting Tolkiens own works and more often then not those of his son, how some one chooses to adapt the setting in no way changes it.

Then I will clarify that statement that the setting has expectations BECAUSE of decades of adaptations that have informed the collective audience of what these races, locations, and peoples are expected to look like. The setting itself currently has expectations behind it.

Settings don’t retroactive update because an adaptation gets popular and future adaptations do not need to hold to any thing set by past ones if they are aiming to adhere to the actual expectations of the original work.

I’m talking broadly here because Rop is all over the place trying to adhere to multiple things.

[Triceron]

It’s not like this show is the first time to have non white dwarves.

My argument has always transcended Tolkien's original works.

I am addressing the zeitgeist. The cultural recognition of what they think Middle Earth and its peoples looks like. The recognition that LOTR Elves all have long, straightened hair and slightly pointed ears. That Hobbits are short and have big feet, that Dwarves are all beardy and stout, etc. These are all the product of decades of adapations, not just of Tolkien's words. And with PJ's LOTR being almost two decades old now, recognition has become expectation. And when a new adaptation seeks to break out of that mold, it would be challenging those expectations. And the creators need to be aware of these challenges, and tackle them in their own way. Make sense?


Rings of Power creators have the freedom and choice to integrate diversity as they please. But they are not excused from bringing attention and controversy unto themselves for abruptly challenging the precedents set by decades of established adaptations. It may not be the fault of Rings of Power, since part of the problem is the audience being unwilling to accept change easily. But it is not the fault of the audience either, since RoP's adaptation is not an easy pill to swallow for people who have expectations. And I think RoP's choice to present it abruptly has divided the fan base more than it has made their vision acceptable.


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I’m talking broadly here because Rop is all over the place trying to adhere to multiple things.

Maybe it shouldn't bite off more than it could chew.

That it did go balls to the wall is part of the reason why it's a mess.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Maybe it shouldn't bite off more than it could chew.

That it did go balls to the wall is part of the reason why it's a mess.

Well, for once I can’t disagree.

[Eapoe]

Correct it is not the first time, but this is not lore this is creative license by Lord of the Rings Online, and likely added for the same reason as Rings of Power, inclusion.

Blacklocks themselves were named for their dark hair and beards. Aulë created 7 dwarves that became the fathers of all dwarves. They were all cut from the same stone/clay so to speak. It doesn't really make sense to just have one different. Also when you look at old illustrations they are white. Rings of Power have creative license to do what they want, but let's not pretend any of it is based on lore because there is just no evidence.

Is there official artwork done by Tolkien? Is there anything official about their skin tone described by him about all of the dwarves in his books? Is there any description of the color of clay that was used to create them? Pure clay is white, or pale, but natural clay has a variety of colors.
Again, he also based his dwarves off of Norse mythology, which also described them as being dark. So, the earliest references we have would indicate they are not pale, or white, but simply unknown and what people have in their head canon.
The fact that people who have adapted his work previously envisioned an all white world (based on their actors), means nothing as related to Tolkien, or what people who adapt it in the future are able to do.

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My argument has always transcended Tolkien's original works.

I am addressing the zeitgeist. The cultural recognition of what they think Middle Earth and its peoples looks like. The recognition that LOTR Elves all have long, straightened hair and slightly pointed ears. That Hobbits are short and have big feet, that Dwarves are all beardy and stout, etc. These are all the product of decades of adapations, not just of Tolkien's words. And with PJ's LOTR being almost two decades old now, recognition has become expectation. And when a new adaptation seeks to break out of that mold, it would be challenging those expectations. And the creators need to be aware of these challenges, and tackle them in their own way. Make sense?


Rings of Power creators have the freedom and choice to integrate diversity as they please. But they are not excused from bringing attention and controversy unto themselves for abruptly challenging the precedents set by decades of established adaptations. It may not be the fault of Rings of Power, since part of the problem is the audience being unwilling to accept change easily. But it is not the fault of the audience either, since RoP's adaptation is not an easy pill to swallow for people who have expectations. And I think RoP's choice to present it abruptly has divided the fan base more than it has made their vision acceptable.


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Maybe it shouldn't bite off more than it could chew.

That it did go balls to the wall is part of the reason why it's a mess.

There have been no precedents set other than by other people with creative freedom. Tolkien, nor his family, has set any precedent for what dwarves look like outside of some very minor descriptions. None of which describe skin tone.

[Dhrizzle]

so you would agree that the Amazon hiring policy mandates that at least 30% of a cast MUST be 'diverse' (aka black/female/gay or lesbian etc) and will actively hire people based on these characteristics over a potentially better choice option who may be a white person is incredibly racist?

or does that kind of racism get a pass because it's going against 'the norm'?

No that is not correct.

[Triceron]

There have been no precedents set other than by other people with creative freedom. Tolkien, nor his family, has set any precedent for what dwarves look like outside of some very minor descriptions. None of which describe skin tone.

And pop culture fandom expectations aren't solely generated out of Tolkien's texts. Many expectations exist because of mediums like PJ's LOTR setting the standard of what most people understand an Elf, Dwarf and Hobbit should look like. Let's even consider the fact that the majority of people who know of Lord of the Rings were likely only exposed to the movies, and probably have not even read any of the books.

If you ask your mother or uncle what an Elf from Middle Earth looks like, they'd likely give you a description of what they've recognized from the films.

Furthermore, I'd ask what you think about Elves having pointed ear tips. Do you think the fanbase at wide considers it a defining feature, or is it something you think could be changed without having any attention brought to it?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

, he also based his dwarves off of Norse mythology, which also described them as being dark.

For the sake of consistency I’m gonna point out that Norse mythology should not be used to imply that dwarves should be white or dark given that in an interview Tolkien him self pretty much says the Norse inspiration is just for names which aren’t even there real names.

slight paraphrasing, dwarfs “are not like at all dwarfs of Norse myths” (3:34) and they are “quite obviously in many ways remind you of the Jews, reflecting the war like capacity of the Jews which we tend to forgot” (10:34).

I’d personally say the most likely thing he was pointing to was them being basic of Arabic Jews and should be brown as that’s the most likely thing he was referring to when mentioning war like Jews. But with what he actually put to paper they have no set tone.

[Eapoe]

For the sake of consistency I’m gonna point out that Norse mythology should not be used to imply that dwarves should be white or dark given that in an interview Tolkien him self pretty much says the Norse inspiration is just for names which aren’t even there real names.



I’d personally say the most likely thing he was pointing to was them being basic of Arabic Jews and should be brown as that’s the most likely thing he was referring to when mentioning war like Jews. But with what he actually put to paper they have no set tone.

I wasn’t really trying to imply that the dwarves from Norse mythology skin tone should be the end all, be all of the conversation, but more so pointing out that out of everything we know about their appearance is the inspiration for Tolkien.
I was simply trying to point out that the only mention of a skin color anywhere, when it comes to the dwarf race in reference to Tolkien, is from Norse mythology. Meaning that people trying to say there is some precedent set for their skin color, or that it is anywhere in the story, are just wrong and using head canon.
(The issue is I was trying to keep from writing a book about it and going too in depth, but the meaning of what I was trying to get across was possibly lost thru doing so.)

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And pop culture fandom expectations aren't solely generated out of Tolkien's texts. Many expectations exist because of mediums like PJ's LOTR setting the standard of what most people understand an Elf, Dwarf and Hobbit should look like. Let's even consider the fact that the majority of people who know of Lord of the Rings were likely only exposed to the movies, and probably have not even read any of the books.

If you ask your mother or uncle what an Elf from Middle Earth looks like, they'd likely give you a description of what they've recognized from the films.

Furthermore, I'd ask what you think about Elves having pointed ear tips. Do you think the fanbase at wide considers it a defining feature, or is it something you think could be changed without having any attention brought to it?

Limited vision of a whole is not a reason to state that there are no dark skin dwarves, elves, or humans.
Before PJ pop culture, as you put it, we had Bakshi’s which depicted an elves with darker skin tone, and some with a shriveled appearance.
Also, my family isn’t racist (AFAIK), and they’d probably describe elves as the pointy ear people that help the scruffy guy make a sword. I doubt they’d bring up the color of their skin in the description, unless it’s some unique color like pink, or blue, or red.
Is your definition of a dwarf a short, gruff, white skinned race, that lives in mountains and craft things, or is it all of those things minus a skin color as it’s never been brought up before a POC was introduced?
Let’s go further, since you want to compare the literature to the film, but do you think PJ succeeded in making elves like they are described in the books as being more beautiful and taller than men?

[Triceron]

Also, my family isn’t racist (AFAIK), and they’d probably describe elves as the pointy ear people that help the scruffy guy make a sword. I doubt they’d bring up the color of their skin in the description, unless it’s some unique color like pink, or blue, or red.

And what would you think about pointy ears?

If they removed pointy ears, would you think everyone still identified them as Elves easily? That there would be no attention drawn to the change?

Is your definition of a dwarf a short, gruff, white skinned race, that lives in mountains and craft things, or is it all of those things minus a skin color as it’s never been brought up before a POC was introduced?

Well it's not about me, is it? I'm not the one bringing attention and controversy to Rings of Power. I'm just making replies in a world of warcraft subforum. What I'm pointing out is this is beyond my personal definition of what a Dwarf is and looks like. It's about what others have expectations for, collectively. It's about making sense out of WHY controversy even exists.

Let’s go further, since you want to compare the literature to the film, but do you think PJ succeeded in making elves like they are described in the books as being more beautiful and taller than men?

Personally? Yes, yes I do. I do think they are depicted as more beautiful than men. PJ's depiction gives them an ethereal glow and has them more airbrushed than regular humans in the movies. You can see this very treatment in the behind the scenes.

I don't think RoP really carried that same depiction, its kind of hit and miss. I don't fault the series for it, it's their choice of direction, it's just different.