Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Eapoe]

I know I haven't been following this thread in a while but came back and saw this and had to mention something that should be obvious. Diversity in the real world does not mean any part of the world has to be composed of a melting pot of different people with similar customs and traditions. That is the opposite of diversity as it is exists in the real world historically. Melting pot diversity is the result of modern technology like planes, trains and automobiles that allows people from far flung places to travel anywhere they want. However, even with that, it does not change the fact that the cultures of the world are different along with the mythologies, traditions, stories, material culture and so forth. So to claim that somehow in a fictional world crafted by an author, there cannot be distinct groups in different parts of the world with unique looks and features is just ignoring the facts of reality. And what JRR Tolkien was doing was crafting a world where this idea of global diversity like the real world existed. But what people seem to be saying is that this kind of diversity is bad or evil for some reason when we all know it isn't because that is the inherent nature of evolution and variation in the real world based on biology. So it is really a ridiculous and arbitrary decision to argue that elves need to be "a melting pot" when in reality they don't. Just look no farther than World of Warcraft and if you notice different groups of elves have their own distinct looks, which in the lore of WOW is because they have been separate from each other for various reasons in the lore. Even if some of that distinction is moreso based on retcons and later additions, the point is that this concept of high fantasy worlds with various different types of creatures with distinct traditions and characteristics is something that directly evolved from Tolkien's world building. But Azeroth is not Arda (the home of Middle Earth) and there is no reason any high fantasy story has to reflect any specific combination of characteristics from the real world, because it is fantasy. And over the decades this is why you have so many different worlds of high fantasy some of which include dark skinned elves, dwarfs and other creatures while others have pink and purple elves and other creatures.

And the reason why most people have accepted Tolkiens world as featuring mostly pale skinned characters is because he was basing it on European myths and legends. Those myths and legends are distinct and uniquely identifiable to Europe. So to say something like anybody would expect Tolkiens dwarves to be black skinned given that this is based on European myth and legend is ridiculous, because mythical dwarves who dwell in mountains and forests is a specific European tradition. And nobody has ever had a problem with that. Just like people understand that dragons in China are unique and different from European dragons. Nobody is confused about this and has ever had a problem with this. So the idea that somehow people were having a problem with the skin color of the dwarves or other creatures in Tolkiens work is just nonsense. In fact, in many ways, having them be white and not like yourself if you are not from Europe, even heightens the fantasy because it takes you to a different world and place outside of your own. This is where things like role play come to into play as an opportunity to act out and pretend to be something that you are not. Therefore the idea that somehow a bunch of people around the world needed to "see themselves" reflected in Tolkien's world is just false. Because obviously people from different cultures have had no problem consuming and enjoying traditions from other cultures as entertainment for years without even being able to speak the language. Like all the folks that fell in love with Hong Kong martial arts films in the 70s which had nothing but Chinese people in them. So why must European stories or stories based on European myths and legends be any different?

I mean, the last few pages is actually the proof against your claim that people don’t have a problem with the dwarves skin color being anything other than white.
Also, as pointed out in one of my recent posts, the folklore and mythology Tolkien based his ideas off of have non white races, and there is actually a race of dwarves that have dark skin, and are sometimes interchanged/compared to elves.
To further a little bit, it’s not like POC didn’t exist in Europe, and thru its history has actually had prominent POC. Its almost like some people have this idea that only white people existed in Europe until the last 20-100 years or so.

[DingDongKing]

Okay, then why go out of your way to adapt said book? You are trying to adapt it because you want the inbuilt audience, so don't be mad when the inbuilt audience you are courting gets upset when you make vast changes.

Adapt. Not identically recreate. Adapt.

Hate to break it to you, but even the Jackson films had deviations.

[bledgor]

Adapt. Not identically recreate. Adapt.

Hate to break it to you, but even the Jackson films had deviations.

My guy, Jackson kept the spirit and many of the details close if not the same, the only thing RoP adapted is names and locations, the characters are completely different, the story butchered, the dialogue ruined, the themes obliterated.

This thing is an adaptation in name only, quite literally.

[exochaft]

I mean, the last few pages is actually the proof against your claim that people don’t have a problem with the dwarves skin color being anything other than white.
Also, as pointed out in one of my recent posts, the folklore and mythology Tolkien based his ideas off of have non white races, and there is actually a race of dwarves that have dark skin, and are sometimes interchanged/compared to elves.
To further a little bit, it’s not like POC didn’t exist in Europe, and thru its history has actually had prominent POC. Its almost like some people have this idea that only white people existed in Europe until the last 20-100 years or so.

The issue is likely the ratio of races, as the intermingling of races also has to have a reason behind. Even if there were non-white people in Europe, most communities maintain the same race and skin color unless there were some outside influences. For example, wars, trade, and slavery are ways where you end up with mixed races in areas that are normally homogenized. Even with that, you wouldn't see a ton of different races in prevalence under normal circumstances unless there was some huge settlement of foreigners involved. The spreading and intermingling of races in current day is mostly due to the ease of travel and social acceptance amongst other things that were not as prevalent in the past. However, what we see in RoP is not that. Prime example was the Harfoots, where their entire tribe looked like if you went into a Whole Foods where 10 different ethnicities walking around at the same time would be normal in the US... but makes zero sense in the RoP setting. While the Harfoots are the most obvious example, there are others throughout RoP that one has to do mental gymnastics to even justify.

Furthermore, if we get into why people or races have different skin colors in the first place, that opens up a whole new conversation that could get lengthy. There's a reason people have certain skin colors, not just some arbitrary reason as it's an adapted trait usually attributed to ones environment and procreation. However, this conversation gets lengthy but the abridged point is that, again, it generally doesn't make sense for some race choices in RoP with the explanations were given (or not given).

Beyond just setting issues, there's intent and execution. Intent seems fairly obvious, as the people at Amazon working on the project are not shy about implying (or directly stating) that all these changes aren't made for the sake of the setting but for current-day diversity ideology and representation. While their intent is pretty sketchy at best, we can even set that aside and ask if the people hired to play their roles are doing a good job despite the shaky reasons for which they were hired. When it comes to a character like Disa, she actually does a pretty darn good job with the crap writing that's given. So the issue of race being an issue when it comes to the setting and the intent behind the hire matters a bit less if the person doing the job is doing it well; to be fair, it doesn't negate the issues being present nor do said issue reflect negatively on the actress herself, but the sum of the parts comes out to less of a negative. A simple way to view is that you can overlook flaws and issues when what you're getting out of it is good, no matter how benign or horrid flaws may be.

There might be some people out there that legitimately just hate people that don't look like themselves, but assuming that's most or even the vast majority of them is pretty much just as prejudiced in thinking. Ultimately, the main issue with RoP is its writing, which also ties into the setting and their choices for actors and the like. The writing is what most people have an issue with, even if they don't phrase it as articulately or succinctly as other. If anything, the aspect of intent mentioned earlier had a much higher priority than things like writing, which is why there are many who are not surprised the show has turned out as it did.

[rhorle]

My guy, Jackson kept the spirit and many of the details close if not the same

Not if you ask the Tolkien estate. Rings of Power isn't an adaptation in name only because adaptations can range from 1% to 100% of what they are adapting. Peter Jackson did get a lot of hate back in the day for his changes. People just forgot that and look fondly on it because it was popular and is old.

An adaptation is just making something fit a different medium. A book to film, a film to a video game, a video game to a tv show, etc.

[Syegfryed]

Hate to break it to you, but even the Jackson films had deviations.

You are comparing a slap in the wrist and cutting your arm off. Nothing PJ did was so egregious awful and disrespectful like the rings of power did.

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Not if you ask the Tolkien estate.

Who gives a fuck about what the tolkien estate think now, lmao

You have tolkien ""professors"" saying there is no such thing as canon in tolkien, and Simon Tolkien himself was the one who asked Sauron to be Walter White. They are all rotten and sold out

[rhorle]

Who gives a fuck about what the tolkien estate think now, lmao

So your dislike has been radicalized enough that you now hate the Tolkien Estate. There is nothing wrong with Sauron having a Walter White vibe. You do understand that doesn't mean they wanted Sauron to be making drugs, right?

[Triceron]

Who gives a fuck about what the tolkien estate think now, lmao

It's kind of sad that there are people who think the Tolkien Estate controls what everybody wants, and somehow that stops any and all controversy from happening.

People respected the estate when it still held integrity. It's been clear a lot of that integrity was lost with Christopher Tolkien's passing.

[Dhrizzle]

I mean, the last few pages is actually the proof against your claim that people don’t have a problem with the dwarves skin color being anything other than white.
Also, as pointed out in one of my recent posts, the folklore and mythology Tolkien based his ideas off of have non white races, and there is actually a race of dwarves that have dark skin, and are sometimes interchanged/compared to elves.
To further a little bit, it’s not like POC didn’t exist in Europe, and thru its history has actually had prominent POC. Its almost like some people have this idea that only white people existed in Europe until the last 20-100 years or so.

There's no point trying to justify POC having roles in RoP by looking at the texts, the sources they drew from or real world history. The showrunners had an aesthetic choice to make as to whether they go for the ethnically homogenous groups described in the books or allow any of actors to audition and end up with a cast closer to reflecting how people in modern England and the US looks. There are arguments for both but I think the outstanding performances of Sophia Nomvete and Ismael Cruz Cordova as Disa and Arondir show the merit of their decision.

There's probably a streak of irony to the fact that people who think they made the wrong decision are arguing that suitability for the role should come second to the colour of an actor's skin.

Edit: I guess if someone really needs an in-universe reason it's because Illuvatar, the totally real Creator-God of Arda that regards the Incarnates as His Children, made them that way.

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You are comparing a slap in the wrist and cutting off your arm off. Nothing PK did was so egregious awful and disrespectful like the rings of power did.

A lot of what Peter Jackson did is incredibly disrespectful to Tolkien, as Christopher Tolkien said "They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people 15 to 25."

You have tolkien ""professors"" saying there is no such thing as canon in tolkien, and Simon Tolkien himself was the one who asked Sauron to be Walter White. They are all rotten and sold out

There is no canon in Tolkien, or rather depending on how you want to define "canon" it's either severely limited or massively self-contradicting. If you want to go off what Tolkien actually had published then there is just The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. If you want to count everything published after his death then you have decades of development to sift through. Some parts rewritten several times, some parts left in an early state that conflicts with later writings, some bits just scribbled notes or buried in letters, that either shed new and important light on some passages, or render them invalid leaving gaping holes in the narrative.

[Eapoe]

There's no point trying to justify POC having roles in RoP by looking at the texts, the sources they drew from or real world history. The showrunners had an aesthetic choice to make as to whether they go for the ethnically homogenous groups described in the books or allow any of actors to audition and end up with a cast closer to reflecting how people in modern England and the US looks. There are arguments for both but I think the outstanding performances of Sophia Nomvete and Ismael Cruz Cordova as Disa and Arondir show the merit of their decision.

There's probably a streak of irony to the fact that people who think they made the wrong decision are arguing that suitability for the role should come second to the colour of an actor's skin.

Edit: I guess if someone really needs an in-universe reason it's because Illuvatar, the totally real Creator-God of Arda that regards the Incarnates as His Children, made them that way.

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A lot of what Peter Jackson did is incredibly disrespectful to Tolkien, as Christopher Tolkien said "They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people 15 to 25."



There is no canon in Tolkien, or rather depending on how you want to define "canon" it's either severely limited or massively self-contradicting. If you want to go off what Tolkien actually had published then there is just The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. If you want to count everything published after his death then you have decades of development to sift through. Some parts rewritten several times, some parts left in an early state that conflicts with later writings, some bits just scribbled notes or buried in letters, that either shed new and important light on some passages, or render them invalid leaving gaping holes in the narrative.

I’m not trying to justify anything. I’m pointing out the fallacy in the arguments people are using to try and justify an all white cast based on Norse mythology and midieval Europe by showing POC existed in both.
I’m not saying we should have them because they are included in both examples, I’m saying people using them as examples of why it should be all white are wrong.

[Syegfryed]

A lot of what Peter Jackson did is incredibly disrespectful to Tolkien, as Christopher Tolkien said "They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people 15 to 25."

Dude, im clearly saying those are not in comparison, i said they what the movies did is not AS egregious awful and disrespectful as the show did.

there is a clearly difference in disrespect if i slap you in the chest, or if i went to your house, shit on your bed and slap your wife and kids.

There is no canon in Tolkien

That's awful bullshit, What Tolkien himself published is canon, saying there is no such thing as canon is being disingenuous and the "professors" are doing it to endorse amazon and the garbage show giving then a free pass to make cringe and awful stuff like Galadriel and Sauron romance.

Even some stuff Christopher published is canon because Tolkien already set then in stone. The only things we didn't was the ones he was still writing and changing before he died, i mentioned then a few times like Orc creation(that everybody takes for granted it) is one of the "non canon" things.

[Rocksteady 87]

That's awful bullshit, What Tolkien himself published is canon, saying there is no such thing as canon is being disingenuous and the "professors" are doing it to endorse amazon and the garbage show giving then a free pass to make cringe and awful stuff like Galadriel and Sauron romance.

Even some stuff Christopher published is canon because Tolkien already set then in stone. The only things we didn't was the ones he was still writing and changing before he died, i mentioned then a few times like Orc creation(that everybody takes for granted it) is one of the "non canon" things.

So why aren't you pissing yourself crying about dwarves with Scottish accents, too?

Better still, why aren't you on the ground pounding your fists in sheer agony at the fact that they're all speaking English? Not just English, but English when even only amongst their own people--and their high kings no less--when they clearly have their own language and no Man is within hundreds of miles of them.

No, just that skin color thing, huh? Yeah, not a fucking racist at all.

[Syegfryed]

I’m not trying to justify anything. I’m pointing out the fallacy in the arguments people are using to try and justify an all white cast based on Norse mythology and midieval Europe by showing POC existed in both.

But people are not using Norse mythology nor the entirety of medieval Europe, they are using the context of England, since Tolkien wrote the story as a way to give England a mythology, so his characters and the setting WILL reflect England at his time, and surprisingly, it was not rly that diverse.

Even the lack of women in his book is not due to him being a women hater but because he wrote while/after the war, and surprisingly, not many women there, so he had to take inspiration from his own experience

I’m not saying we should have them because they are included in both examples, I’m saying people using them as examples of why it should be all white are wrong.

Its being a long time since i read some eddas and some norse histories, but even there the dark dwarves or dark elves(there is an debate if dark elves were actually a different kind of dwarves) were from different clans/realms

Even there there is a significant explanation and reason of why they were different, something the show didn't care to give to make the setting more rich and diverse. They were making shit up left and right, make up a clan of dwarves from X place where Deesa comes from, and integrate into the narrative with a real world explanation making people understand and feel real.

[jbombard]

I’m not trying to justify anything. I’m pointing out the fallacy in the arguments people are using to try and justify an all white cast based on Norse mythology and midieval Europe by showing POC existed in both.
I’m not saying we should have them because they are included in both examples, I’m saying people using them as examples of why it should be all white are wrong.

The cast didn't need to be all white. In Tolkeins stories humans are not all white, this would have been a very natural place. They could have made the harfoots all brown, even though 3000 years seems like a very short time for color for the merging of blood lines into the hobbits to become all white. It still would have been better than the weird hodgepodge of inconsistency of the harfoots design. They either intentionally or unintentionally chose races that would create discourse. They had to know that going against preestablished perceptions of what the races looked like was going to upset Tolkien fans. And then they decided to not provide any background on these characters.

[Syegfryed]

So why aren't you pissing yourself crying about dwarves with Scottish accents, too?

Because i don't rly care about accents as much as you would think, i already told you im not from america, i don't rly feel these English accents to be that different to one or another. Except when its RLY thick, and i don't even understand.

I only notice something when they make those funny videos about putting people from australia, UK and US to say some words.

Also, i like to watch some stuff dubbed, it was how i watched the original movies, the dub in pt-br is GOAT to me

Better still, why aren't you on the ground pounding your fists in sheer agony at the fact that they're all speaking English?

I actually commented about that, if you were not so busy playing your role as white saviour, raging about stuff you don't rly care about it, you would notice that one of my critics is the lack of spoken elvish in the show, something PJ movies did better.

When dwarves talk with dwarves, when elves speak with elves, they should use their own language, but when talking to other races, use english. That should be the proper.

Hell, i would love to see some black speech from the orcs, but instead i get an orc family and they not wanting to go to war.

Not that i expect this garbage of a show actually put work on that, making a normal scene was already hard for then, making then in a different language would be a nightmare.

[Dhrizzle]

Dude, im clearly saying those are not in comparison, i said they what the movies did is not AS egregious awful and disrespectful as the show did.

there is a clearly difference in disrespect if i slap you in the chest, or if i went to your house, shit on your bed and slap your wife and kids.

And what I'm saying is yes in comparison what the movies did to Tolkien's works is MORE egregious awful and disrespectful than what the show did. To put it in terms you understand, the show cut up a picture of Tolkien's family, rearranged the bits and then coloured things in differently while the movies went to his house, shit on the bed and slapped the wife and kids.

That's awful bullshit, What Tolkien himself published is canon, saying there is no such thing as canon is being disingenuous and the "professors" are doing it to endorse amazon and the garbage show giving then a free pass to make cringe and awful stuff like Galadriel and Sauron romance.

The discussion about what actually is "canon" in the Legendarium has been going on since way before Amazon started sniffing around the IP. It's a perfectly valid opinion to say that only the books actually published by Tolkien are canon. That means there is Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, which canonically are written from the limited perspective of in-universe characters in Westron, translated to Anglo Saxon and then to English, with every detail - especially those dealing with the deep past - dependent on unreliable narrators.

Even some stuff Christopher published is canon because Tolkien already set then in stone. The only things we didn't was the ones he was still writing and changing before he died, i mentioned then a few times like Orc creation(that everybody takes for granted it) is one of the "non canon" things.

Now we're getting to picking-and-choosing what you would like to be canon. Very little has been "set in stone," or if it has it's as myths and legends believed in-universe. Whatever criteria you use for canonising "some stuff" can almost certainly be applied to other stuff that will contradict it. A big reason for Christopher Tolkien publishing HoMe is he wanted to show the processes and fragments his father left and illustrate that the Silmarillion did not fully conform to the intent of Tolkien.

[Rocksteady 87]

Because i don't rly care about accents as much as you would think

Got it, so you finally admit to being a fucking racist. <thumbs up>

I mean, the language and accent is arguably even more egregious insult (or whatever idiotic term you people are using now) to Tolkien's work than a bit more melanin in someone's skin. The latter is a AWW HELL NAH, Y'ALL! Wonder why... oh right, that's already been covered.

[Syegfryed]

And what I'm saying is yes in comparison what the movies did to Tolkien's works is MORE egregious awful and disrespectful than what the show did

No they didn't, and nothing you say can rly prove that.

To put it in terms you understand, the show cut up a picture of Tolkien's family, rearranged the bits and then coloured things in differently while the movies went to his house, shit on the bed and slapped the wife and kids.

No one rly think the movie did worse to the source material and the story than the show did brother, you are obviously trying to joke about it or i dunno, lying on purpose so save face? but no, what you said is not true

The show make an allegory to immigrants with numenor with fear the elves would lose their jobs, ruined a ton of characters, messed up the story, create characters who didn't exist to fuck up the story, make Guyladriel kiss elrond and ship her with the dark lord.

AND THEY BLATANTLY STEAL STUFF FROM THE MOVIES

How can the movies be worse if the show STEAL STUFF FROM THE MOVIES??

I repeat, a third time, the show steal lines, moments and scenes FROM THE MOVIES, to pull nostalgia bait and because they are bad at writing

Now we're getting to picking-and-choosing what you would like to be canon.

Its not about picky and chose, there are simple things FINISHED that Tolkein did not published, and things he DIDN'T finished, that he also, did not publish

Christopher took both and published himself. That is where the "problem" of canon start, but as i said earlier, Stating "there is no such thing as canon in tolkien" is a disingenuous and deceitful statement to give amazon a free pass to shat on the work.

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Got it, so you finally admit to being a fucking racist. <thumbs up>

Like i said, its extremely funny to see a white man calling POC people racist, it trully shows how delusional and deranged they are in their virtue signaling.

I mean, the language and accent is arguably even more egregious insult

To you maybe, because you are in your role to not be a bigot, so you will find other stuff to be outraged about it

But like i said, i did mention the language part, dunno why you are still pretending that i did not. It just that accents dont rly seem that different to me, its all english

[rogoth]

Got it, so you finally admit to being a fucking racist. <thumbs up>

I mean, the language and accent is arguably even more egregious insult (or whatever idiotic term you people are using now) to Tolkien's work than a bit more melanin in someone's skin. The latter is a AWW HELL NAH, Y'ALL! Wonder why... oh right, that's already been covered.

your previous comment, and then this one here proves to everyone you have an IQ that's barely above room temp, not to mention you have the same severe mental problem that Adamas also suffers from, you lack the (what some might call basic) ability to compartmentalize and to distinguish between different aspects of a discussion based on context clues, so thanks for that.

[rhorle]

Like i said, its extremely funny to see a white man calling POC people racist, it trully shows how delusional and deranged they are in their virtue signaling.

People of all skin colors (races) can be bigots.