Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Syegfryed]

This is barely 10 percent more than the acolytes final episode, a show that cost less than this and still got cancelled by disney. If this gets a third season, then amazon are clearly morons. So yeah, if it does go 5 seasons, people will still be talking about it, but more in the "how in the hell did garbage that no one is watching yet so expensive last so long?" sort of way.

They already paid for the 5 seasons, they would lose more money if they didn't make it.

My bet is they will do a third season and it will be the finale, because the reception is that bad

[Triceron]

Adapt. Not identically recreate. Adapt.

Hate to break it to you, but even the Jackson films had deviations.

Jackson films weren't without criticism or controversy either though.

LOTR was beloved, but Hobbit didn't come out unscathed. At all.

[jbombard]

It is miracle they were able to get as much in the movies as they did. There is no way they could get everything in, cuts and changes had to be made. Yes there were things missing from the movies that upset some fans, but fans of Lord of the Rings and people who never read the books loved the movies.

The show got to tell their own story only limited by pre established lore. And we got terrible acting(except for a couple standouts), dwarves(not just Disa) didn't really look or sound like we expected, proto-Hobbits looked and sounded nothing like the Hobbits they would all become in 3000 years. Elves were mediocre at best. Season 1 was a mess. Season 2 was more focused and overall decent in my opinion(considering they had to work with the mess they created in season 1). I would at least like to see a season 3 before deciding if they should cancel.

[Veggie50]

It is miracle they were able to get as much in the movies as they did. There is no way they could get everything in, cuts and changes had to be made. Yes there were things missing from the movies that upset some fans, but fans of Lord of the Rings and people who never read the books loved the movies.

The show got to tell their own story only limited by pre established lore. And we got terrible acting(except for a couple standouts), dwarves(not just Disa) didn't really look or sound like we expected, proto-Hobbits looked and sounded nothing like the Hobbits they would all become in 3000 years. Elves were mediocre at best. Season 1 was a mess. Season 2 was more focused and overall decent in my opinion(considering they had to work with the mess they created in season 1). I would at least like to see a season 3 before deciding if they should cancel.

I agree theres an upward trend. Funnily enough the show got a lot of flack pre season 1 about being a DEI fest with the casting of Arondir and Disa, but while theres plenty wrong with it, I consider both of them high notes.

[jbombard]

I agree theres an upward trend. Funnily enough the show got a lot of flack pre season 1 about being a DEI fest with the casting of Arondir and Disa, but while theres plenty wrong with it, I consider both of them high notes.

I think they both were a bit out of nowhere with no explanation and I really don't think it fits the lore or at least people's expectations of Middle Earth. That said, both Disa and Arondir are better actors than the most of the cast.

[Syegfryed]

I agree theres an upward trend. Funnily enough the show got a lot of flack pre season 1 about being a DEI fest with the casting of Arondir and Disa, but while theres plenty wrong with it, I consider both of them high notes.

I didn't like Arondir acting, but i do think Deesa did a good job with what she had.

But again, the core problem is writing, the actors cant do miracles if they are reading garbage or nonsense.

Like, i know Celebrimbor actor is good, but he is not an elf, he didn't fit the role, and the show made the character a dumbass

[rhorle]

This is barely 10 percent more than the acolytes final episode, a show that cost less than this and still got cancelled by disney. If this gets a third season, then amazon are clearly morons. So yeah, if it does go 5 seasons, people will still be talking about it, but more in the "how in the hell did garbage that no one is watching yet so expensive last so long?" sort of way.

Different companies different goals. Amazon has the benefit of making money through other means and not just subscription to their video platform. So every customer they attract can make them more money then D+ could.

Also Luminiate might not be accurate. For September 2nd to September 8th Nielsen shows 1,019 million minutes watched. Luminiate/Variety reports only 372.7 million views. So their data might be suspect. Plus, they are US only and Amazon has said that most of the viewership for the show is outside of the US.

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They already paid for the 5 seasons, they would lose more money if they didn't make it.

No. They paid for the rights and the ability to make 5 seasons. They have not paid upfront for each season. That is silly.

[Triceron]

I didn't like Arondir acting, but i do think Deesa did a good job with what she had.

But again, the core problem is writing, the actors cant do miracles if they are reading garbage or nonsense.

Like, i know Celebrimbor actor is good, but he is not an elf, he didn't fit the role, and the show made the character a dumbass

Agreed here.

I'm not sure what they thought about for Celebrimbor's casting. I get if they wanted to have a good actor for the role, but the character's supposed to be younger than Galadriel....

I think a younger actor could have made more sense out of the story they were going for. It could be played off as youthful egotism and naivete, giving trust too easily. Instead like you said, it ended up feeling like we're watching a distinguished and experienced character be a dumbass.

[Weeps]

Season 1 SUCKED.

Season 2 was way better.

Galadriel's actress needs to chill on the botoxed, expressionless face. Emoting only through eyes doesn't work for films.

[Fabinas]

25 minutes is absolutely not enough to judge a TV series. With your logic, if you mean the first 25 minutes of Rings of Power in Season 1, I guess you find the show fantastic because the intro was an absolute blast.

You probably missed the irony of my post. Don't matter anyways.

[SilverLion]

I agree theres an upward trend. Funnily enough the show got a lot of flack pre season 1 about being a DEI fest with the casting of Arondir and Disa, but while theres plenty wrong with it, I consider both of them high notes.

I'd like to see the War of the Last Alliance, if we can, but there's so much time compression that has to happen. I feel like next season will be focused on the downfall of Numenor and the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. Also calling it now, Pharazon is going to be a Ringwraith. Dunno if he's going to be the Witch-King but he's definitely gonna be one of them.

[Dhrizzle]

No they didn't, and nothing you say can rly prove that.

No one rly think the movie did worse to the source material and the story than the show did brother, you are obviously trying to joke about it or i dunno, lying on purpose so save face? but no, what you said is not true

The only things that can be considered definitively canon are the revised version of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, and of the two the Lord of the Rings received much more care and attention to ensure it presented certain themes and stories that Tolkien considered important. Changes to Aragorn, Faramir and Denethor and the sidelining of the Hobbits' story to make room for glorious CGI battle scenes go directly against the spirit of the novel. It made for good movies and even better merchandising opportunities but I'm with Christopher Tolkien here and agree they eviscerated the books to achieve this. Tolkien probably wouldn't have liked or approved of the way Rings of Power is going but it doesn't rip apart something that he laboured over to completion.

The show make an allegory to immigrants with numenor with fear the elves would lose their jobs, ruined a ton of characters, messed up the story, create characters who didn't exist to fuck up the story, make Guyladriel kiss elrond and ship her with the dark lord.

The fact you're using the stupid "Guyladriel" meme instead of the much more accurate "Nerwen" to highlight Galadriel's tendency towards traditionally masculine pursuits just shows you've far more interest in regurgitating what some YouTuber says instead of engaging with Tolkien's actual work.

Its not about picky and chose, there are simple things FINISHED that Tolkein did not published, and things he DIDN'T finished, that he also, did not publish

Christopher took both and published himself. That is where the "problem" of canon start, but as i said earlier, Stating "there is no such thing as canon in tolkien" is a disingenuous and deceitful statement to give amazon a free pass to shat on the work.

Whichever influencer is telling people this is doing a massive disservice, it's up there with "Galadriel would have been a sorceress" and "Orcs don't have babies" as blatantly false information to the extent I think they're just trolling the haters with disinformation. The lack of "canonicity" in the Legendarium has been an established point for decades before Amazon secured the rights and the whole point of compiling HoMe was for Christopher Tolkien to show how nebulous Tolkien's writings are, with everything being very much work-in-progress and couched in the framing narrative of unreliable narrators, translators and being presented in the form of myths that do not reflect what he considered to be the "true" history of Arda.

[Syegfryed]

I think a younger actor could have made more sense out of the story they were going for. It could be played off as youthful egotism and naivete, giving trust too easily. Instead like you said, it ended up feeling like we're watching a distinguished and experienced character be a dumbass.

It would make even more sense if they want to play with the "romance" between Sauron and Celebrimbor, and his "seduction", because THAT is what they aimed for, not even this they did right

Its like they were TRYING to be bad, some stuff you can't miss/get wrong, unless you try

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The only things that can be considered definitively canon are the revised version of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings,

Right, this alone already refutes the "tolkien professors" who claim there is no such thing as canon in tolkien

It is a false statement, period.

Changes to Aragorn, Faramir and Denethor and the sidelining of the Hobbits' story to make room for glorious CGI battle scenes go directly against the spirit of the novel.

Ok, and you think what she show did DOES NOT go against the spirit of the novel? allegory to immigration instead of the fall of men by their own hubris? How the show sidelineshit to make room for their glorious characters they made up like Arondir? how they sideline the king Gilgalad to make room for Guyladriel? how they made the battle in Eregion a bad copy of the battle of helms deep? now its ok for the CGI battle scenes?

Give me a break

The fact you're using the stupid "Guyladriel" meme instead of the much more accurate "Nerwen" to highlight Galadriel's tendency towards traditionally masculine pursuits just shows you've far more interest in regurgitating what some YouTuber says instead of engaging with Tolkien's actual work.

Im using the stupid meme to show how stupid the character is in the show. The nickname is related to athletics, not being a self-righteous and egocentric moron who think she is the hottest shit in middle earth and can do everything because girlboss, and like i said, its completely nonsense that you are even pretending the movies did worse to the characters than the show did.

Whichever influencer is telling people this is doing a massive disservice, it's up there with "Galadriel would have been a sorceress" and "Orcs don't have babies" as blatantly false information to the extent I think they're just trolling the haters with disinformation.

Galadriel would be a sorceress instead of a iron-clad warrior yeah, and the point is not rly that orcs don't have babies, but orcs in lotr are not a loving family who doesn't want war. Orcs would be like sharks, the young would be born already more functional and even devour themselves to thrive, they are a force of evil in the setting, twisted, destructive to the dark lord binding

he lack of "canonicity" in the Legendarium has been an established point for decades before Amazon secured the rights and the whole point of compiling HoMe was for Christopher Tolkien to show how nebulous Tolkien's writings ar

Right, but that doesn't give amazon free pass to butcher the established lore.

[Dhrizzle]

Right, this alone already refutes the "tolkien professors" who claim there is no such thing as canon in tolkien

It is a false statement, period.

So in your opinion nothing outside of those books is canon, and the canon itself is in-universe stories told by unreliable narrators and translated twice?

Ok, and you think what she show did DOES NOT go against the spirit of the novel? allegory to immigration instead of the fall of men by their own hubris? How the show sidelineshit to make room for their glorious characters they made up like Arondir? how they sideline the king Gilgalad to make room for Guyladriel? how they made the battle in Eregion a bad copy of the battle of helms deep? now its ok for the CGI battle scenes?

There's no allegory to immigration, I think you know that's just silly. They do use the applicability of using economic uncertainty to spread fear and foment unrest but this is tied in to the Numenorean feeling of inferiority to the Elves and is more like concerns over being dominated by a more powerful nation than a worry of cheap migrant labour spreading over a border and taking up resources.

What sidelineshit are you talking about? And do you really think Galadriel wasn't one of the most significant characters in the Second Age?

Im using the stupid meme to show how stupid the character is in the show. The nickname is related to athletics, not being a self-righteous and egocentric moron who think she is the hottest shit in middle earth and can do everything because girlboss, and like i said, its completely nonsense that you are even pretending the movies did worse to the characters than the show did.

Tolkien also describes her being of Amazon disposition, a term he uses to reference female soldiers and which translates to Gnomish (an early form of Noldorin) as "gothwin," goth- meaning war or strife and -win being a feminine suffix. Also he wrote Galadriel as the biggest "girl-boss" of all time.

Galadriel would be a sorceress instead of a iron-clad warrior yeah,

Sorcery is a form of magia used exclusively by wicked servants of Morgoth and Sauron, there is no way Galadriel would have been a sorceress.

and the point is not rly that orcs don't have babies, but orcs in lotr are not a loving family who doesn't want war. Orcs would be like sharks, the young would be born already more functional and even devour themselves to thrive, they are a force of evil in the setting, twisted, destructive to the dark lord binding

It's 100% in line for an Orc to not want to march to war where he would face strong opposition and trained warriors. Not when there is good loot, slaving and murder to be done against soft targets right where he is. Your concept of Orcs seems closer to Warhammer than anything Tolkien wrote. All we know is that they reproduce in the same manner as Men and Elves. We know they are intelligent, social creatures that can work together towards a common cause and show a preference for particular companions and that's really all you need to have a family. I don't think the few seconds we saw an Orc family on-screen is enough to say if it's a particularly loving arrangement.

You also seem to have missed that these particular Orcs are not bound to the dark lord binding. Morgoth is gone and Sauron has yet to assert his control. Personally I think what we have seen is the Orcs lose their last chance to find the path to Redemption. Tolkien said it was almost certainly beyond the abilities of Men and Elves to help them, but Adar as a fellow Orc who remembers what it was to be an Elf could have done it, if he wasn't hampered by his own Orcish nature.

Right, but that doesn't give amazon free pass to butcher the established lore.

Correct, that comes from the IP holders.

[Syegfryed]

So in your opinion nothing outside of those books is canon, and the canon itself is in-universe stories told by unreliable narrators and translated twice?

That does not matter, you are changing goalposts and entering another rabbit hole

What is discussed is: A tolkien professor, stated that "there is no such thing as canon in tolkien" this is false. There is canon in tolkien, period.

There's no allegory to immigration, I think you know that's just silly.

And i think you are being disingenuous on purpose, because there is a whole speech about the numerians complaining the elves would take their "JERBS", because one elf was brought with then. Then Karl pharazon come with alcohol and everyone is fine.

This is idiotic, its an allegory to immigration of how people say the immigrants would steal people jobs and opportunities, it completely misses the point of the fall of numenor and why they don't like elves

What sidelineshit are you talking about? And do you really think Galadriel wasn't one of the most significant characters in the Second Age?

She wasn't as significant as other characters, Gil'galand and her husband Celeborn by example, whow as compltely removed from the narrative - sidelined - to make room for her

By example, she was not present in the Battle of Eregion, but here, of course, she is one of the main characters, while Gil-galand was downgraded to a meme while being hold by an orc.

Tolkien also describes her being of Amazon disposition, a term he uses to reference female soldiers and which translates to Gnomish (an early form of Noldorin) as "gothwin," goth- meaning war or strife and -win being a feminine suffix. Also he wrote Galadriel as the biggest "girl-boss" of all time.

That is going above and beyond in twisting his words to fit your own criteria, if she was, she would have actually done something in the story related to it, but she never did, her amazon disposition was simple because she was taller than other elves, she was atlhetic, not a warrior in the battlefield using plate armor brawling with Sauron and killing orcs left and right, that never happened

Sorcery is a form of magia used exclusively by wicked servants of Morgoth and Sauron, there is no way Galadriel would have been a sorceress.

Ah so you were baiting for that, but no, we were speaking of elven magic by song and words, that falls more in line with the character

It's 100% in line for an Orc to not want to march to war where he would face strong opposition and trained warriors.

First, not its not in line

Second, that was not the reason they refused to go to war, so this point falls flat.

I don't think the few seconds we saw an Orc family on-screen is enough to say if it's a particularly loving arrangement.

It is because that is what happens when you make that an important scene to be focused on, you set the tone of the orc society - who goes against what people know, and what Tolkein wrote -

all and all, mistakes from a terrible writing for a garbage plot that came from nowhere and went nowhere

[rhorle]

What is discussed is: A tolkien professor, stated that "there is no such thing as canon in tolkien" this is false. There is canon in tolkien, period.

You are cherry picking his statement to push the narrative you want. His comments were talking about how Tolkien was constantly revising his story. There are levels of Tolkien canon. A lot of people use that word as some holy grail when a lot of the lore would have to be non-canon because it wasn't published by Tolkien. Anything from Christopher, despite only edits of his fathers work, would be non-canon.

https://www.ign.com/articles/as-the-...n-doesnt-exist

https://x.com/TheRingsofPower/status...25799818645937

[Syegfryed]

You are cherry picking his statement to push the narrative you want.

No, im literly pointing out what he said, and he said something wrong.

His comments were talking about how Tolkien was constantly revising his story.

then, he should not have used a lie to talk about that.

[rhorle]

then, he should not have used a lie to talk about that.

He didn't. You just took part of his statements and ignored the rest of the context. Tolkien didn't see his story as "canon". Even after being published he was still changing things about the story. It's not like it matters anyway since Peter Jackson changed canon and is praised for his work. Canon only matters when people are looking for a flimsy justification to dislike/hate.

[Dhrizzle]

That does not matter, you are changing goalposts and entering another rabbit hole

What is discussed is: A tolkien professor, stated that "there is no such thing as canon in tolkien" this is false. There is canon in tolkien, period.

Yes, because trying to define canon in Tolkien is a rabbit hole. If you want to take the position that LotR and The Hobbit are canon then you can, but it means the vast majority of what Tolkien wrote is out of consideration. This is part of what is being discussed, if we actually look at what Corey Olsen said, not just the clip you want to focus on, we get "First thing to specify is that there's no such thing, really, as canon in Tolkien, Tolkien's ideas were ever evolving. In the text of The Lord of the Rings, we're told that Gandalf with the other Wizards arrived at around year 1000 of the Third Age. And in his later years, he was playing with the idea of maybe Gandalf coming sooner, maybe some of the Wizards coming in the Second Age and taking part in the wars of the Rings of Power."

So your idea that only the two published novels are canon goes against the developing ideas and intent of Tolkien.

And i think you are being disingenuous on purpose, because there is a whole speech about the numerians complaining the elves would take their "JERBS", because one elf was brought with then. Then Karl pharazon come with alcohol and everyone is fine.

This is idiotic, its an allegory to immigration of how people say the immigrants would steal people jobs and opportunities, it completely misses the point of the fall of numenor and why they don't like elves

Nobody mentions "JERBS," you're getting confused with a South Park meme. There's also no mention of immigration and you should probably look up what an allegory is.

She wasn't as significant as other characters, Gil'galand and her husband Celeborn by example, whow as compltely removed from the narrative - sidelined - to make room for her

By example, she was not present in the Battle of Eregion, but here, of course, she is one of the main characters, while Gil-galand was downgraded to a meme while being hold by an orc.

Galadriel's story was ever evolving as Tolkien developed her character in her mind, his notes paint a picture of an Elf who was an Amazon, a Commander and possibly a king-maker with mention of Gil-galad being high king in suzerainty to Galadriel and in one version of events Amroth was her son who she gave the throne of Lorinand. Christopher Tolkien stated that much of the history in the Silmarillion would have been rewritten to properly accommodate Galadriel's status as the greatest of the Noldor (save Feanor, maybe.)

That is going above and beyond in twisting his words to fit your own criteria, if she was, she would have actually done something in the story related to it, but she never did, her amazon disposition was simple because she was taller than other elves, she was atlhetic, not a warrior in the battlefield using plate armor brawling with Sauron and killing orcs left and right, that never happened

Tolkien uses the term Amazon almost exclusively as a term for female warriors or soldiers, and its gnomish (an early form of Noldorin) translation was gothwin - "goth-" meaning war or strife and "-win" being a female suffix.

Ah so you were baiting for that, but no, we were speaking of elven magic by song and words, that falls more in line with the character

Yes it's kinda bait, but the number of people I've seen declaring Galadriel would be a sorceress in battle instead of a warrior is pretty clear evidence that some influencer with zero idea how Tolkien's Elves work was throwing out nonsense that people have lapped up. How do you imagine this "Elven magic" working in a battle situation?

First, not its not in line

It absolutely gels with the conversation between Shahrat and Gorbag wanting to go off with a few good lads and find some nice easy loot, and the Rankin/Bass movie has a catchy song that captures the general reluctance of Orcs to leave their horrible little lives to go off and fight hard targets.

Second, that was not the reason they refused to go to war, so this point falls flat.

Oh? Glug's reluctance to march to Eregion follows scenes showing him quite content with his little life of branding those who kneel and murdering those who refuse. What reasons are you imagining?

It is because that is what happens when you make that an important scene to be focused on, you set the tone of the orc society - who goes against what people know, and what Tolkein wrote -

What tone are you making up? I know people like to complain about happy, loving families but that isn't what the series showed. Nothing in RoP shows the Orcs being nice at all.

[jbombard]

Yes, because trying to define canon in Tolkien is a rabbit hole. If you want to take the position that LotR and The Hobbit are canon then you can, but it means the vast majority of what Tolkien wrote is out of consideration.

I agree with most of what you wrote I just want to touch on this. There is canon and then there expectations people have that have been enforced by books, illustrations, movies etc... Canon is what J.R.R. Tolkien wrote and published himself or things that had his stamp of approval. period.

Now all the other stuff that came after that set up people's expectations. Not canon but they help flush out the world. There are things that have been debated and interpreted differently, and then there are things that have been well established through years of books, illustration, animation, movies that have created a common vision. So when someone comes around and creates something that flies in the face of that well establised vision, it is understandable that they don't like it.

Companies are free to take creative license and do as they please. People are free to think what they did sucks because it ignores everything that came before it.