Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[InfiniteCharger]

I mean, the last few pages is actually the proof against your claim that people don’t have a problem with the dwarves skin color being anything other than white.
Also, as pointed out in one of my recent posts, the folklore and mythology Tolkien based his ideas off of have non white races, and there is actually a race of dwarves that have dark skin, and are sometimes interchanged/compared to elves.
To further a little bit, it’s not like POC didn’t exist in Europe, and thru its history has actually had prominent POC. Its almost like some people have this idea that only white people existed in Europe until the last 20-100 years or so.

What people think on this forum has nothing to do with it and is missing the point. When someone is writing and creating a fantasy world there is no requirement to include any specific combination of features according to some quota system. That has never been the basis of culture or story telling ever in history. In Chinese fantasy most of the characters are Chinese, in Indian fantasy most of the characters are Indian, in African fantasy most of the characters are African. And the existence of all these different traditions of fantasy is the diversity of the real world, not some American melting pot that has only existed for the last 60 years. What is going on here is that certain people inside the industry and academia have decided that writers like Tolkien in writing a story based on European fantasy and folklore is racist for the simple reason there aren't enough black or other people in it because of the industries current day obsession with such nonsense. And it is a form of bigotry because it implies that Africans or black people don't have a history or culture of their own that they can see themselves in or that they cannot be validated unless they are included in stories set in Europe. Keep in mind that high fantasy as a genre of fiction is unique to Europe, despite having all kinds of worlds that have been created based the influence of Tolkien and others, such as WOW. But generally that genre is not something common in Asia, Africa or elsewhere and even when it is such as in Japanese manga and anime, it generally adopts a European aesthetic. That is because the world is diverse and doesn't have the same traditions of fantasies or fairy tales everywhere. And in the real world most people acknowledge that combination of dwarves, wizards, elves and Ogres are a European tradition.

Ultimately the alleged issue with Tolkien and why Amazon changed things around is even though there was "diversity" in this world of Arda, all the main characters and heroes were white and some white executives and show runners took issue with that and decided to change it. There was no demand from any audience petitions, questionnaires or polls that showed a large number of different groups around the world had a problem with this. It all boils down to Amazon and modern day Hollywood declaring this to be a new issue of civil rights, as if the idea of a story based on European history and mythology has to be include groups other than Europeans which is laughably absurd arbitrary nonsense. No black people ever were saying that Tolkien was a racist or somehow problematic in all the years the book was in print. As most simply had their own traditions and cultures to create and maintain than be worried about being included in European fantasy. Now if Amazon actually wanted to do a good job of actually representing diversity in the world of Arda they would simply have created new characters not described in the books but in the same world, just other parts of it outside those in the books. That would have been a good way to do diversity in that setting. But no they had to turn all the groups from the books into some melting pot culture that goes completely against the world building that Tolkien meticulously crafted and laid down.

[RobertMugabe]

What people think on this forum has nothing to do with it and is missing the point. When someone is writing and creating a fantasy world there is no requirement to include any specific combination of features according to some quota system. That has never been the basis of culture or story telling ever in history. In Chinese fantasy most of the characters are Chinese, in Indian fantasy most of the characters are Indian, in African fantasy most of the characters are African. And the existence of all these different traditions of fantasy is the diversity of the real world, not some American melting pot that has only existed for the last 60 years. What is going on here is that certain people inside the industry and academia have decided that writers like Tolkien in writing a story based on European fantasy and folklore is racist for the simple reason there aren't enough black or other people in it because of the industries current day obsession with such nonsense. And it is a form of bigotry because it implies that Africans or black people don't have a history or culture of their own that they can see themselves in or that they cannot be validated unless they are included in stories set in Europe. Keep in mind that high fantasy as a genre of fiction is unique to Europe, despite having all kinds of worlds that have been created based the influence of Tolkien and others, such as WOW. But generally that genre is not something common in Asia, Africa or elsewhere and even when it is such as in Japanese manga and anime, it generally adopts a European aesthetic. That is because the world is diverse and doesn't have the same traditions of fantasies or fairy tales everywhere. And in the real world most people acknowledge that combination of dwarves, wizards, elves and Ogres are a European tradition.

Ultimately the alleged issue with Tolkien and why Amazon changed things around is even though there was "diversity" in this world of Arda, all the main characters and heroes were white and some white executives and show runners took issue with that and decided to change it. There was no demand from any audience petitions, questionnaires or polls that showed a large number of different groups around the world had a problem with this. It all boils down to Amazon and modern day Hollywood declaring this to be a new issue of civil rights, as if the idea of a story based on European history and mythology has to be include groups other than Europeans which is laughably absurd arbitrary nonsense. No black people ever were saying that Tolkien was a racist or somehow problematic in all the years the book was in print. As most simply had their own traditions and cultures to create and maintain than be worried about being included in European fantasy. Now if Amazon actually wanted to do a good job of actually representing diversity in the world of Arda they would simply have created new characters not described in the books but in the same world, just other parts of it outside those in the books. That would have been a good way to do diversity in that setting. But no they had to turn all the groups from the books into some melting pot culture that goes completely against the world building that Tolkien meticulously crafted and laid down.

I think you are getting something wrong here. "Hollywood" does not care about racism etc. most of them are in fact part of the problem.
The reason why we're seeing more diversity in media is simply because its an attempt for them to appeal to more people, especially outside of the US and Europe. So basically they aren't trying to influence the world or whatever with their politics, but instead they just want to make more money. Now whether this is working or not, is a different discussion.

But yeah the general answer to all things happening in businesses is always money (even when they are saying otherwise).

[DingDongKing]

My guy, Jackson kept the spirit and many of the details close if not the same, the only thing RoP adapted is names and locations, the characters are completely different, the story butchered, the dialogue ruined, the themes obliterated.

This thing is an adaptation in name only, quite literally.

Not really. Dunno if you've watched the Hobbit, but it's quite the clusterfuck - and people got over it.

Get over yourself. You're not important.

[Shadowferal]

It’s been confirmed that more The Lord of the Rings prequel tales are on the way following rumours of a series being cancelled.

As reported by Dexerto (via Variety), there were rumours that we won’t be getting a third season following a drop in viewership but Amazon Studios boss, Jennifer Salke has confirmed otherwise.


They did say earlier that a 3rd season. But considering the decline that it's obviously in, my doubts of it going any further are increasing.

[rogoth]

Not really. Dunno if you've watched the Hobbit, but it's quite the clusterfuck - and people got over it.

Get over yourself. You're not important.

there's something fundamentally wrong with your point here:

and that's that PJ didn't create the Hobbit movies, he was brought in at the 11th hour to rescue the project that had already been principally written and cast, not to mention was part way through filming before he took over, not to mention that the studio behind it demanded it be made into a trilogy of movies in the vain attempt to try and repeat the LOTR blockbusters several years previously, and while it wasn't great, I don't blame him or his team for the mess it turned into because it was out of his hands, he just did the best he could with the stuff he had.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, because trying to define canon in Tolkien is a rabbit hole.

Its rly not that complicated, but the point stand that there is canon in tolkien.

Nobody mentions "JERBS," you're getting confused with a South Park meme.

No, it literally a scene in the show, here are his words, verbatim from the script:

Tamar: Elf ships on our shore? Elf workers taking your trades? Workers who don't sleep, don't tire, don't age

you may try to nitpick the "job" part, but that is what trade is, it very on the nose.

There's also no mention of immigration and you should probably look up what an allegory is

Yeah, of course they would not mention, otherwise it would not be an allegory

Galadriel's story was ever evolving as Tolkien developed her character in her mind, his notes paint a picture of an Elf who was an Amazon, a Commander and possibly a king-maker with mention of Gil-galad being high king in suzerainty to Galadriel and in one version of events Amroth was her son who she gave the throne of Lorinand. Christopher Tolkien stated that much of the history in the Silmarillion would have been rewritten to properly accommodate Galadriel's status as the greatest of the Noldor (save Feanor, maybe.)

Ok, what the actual hell are you trying to do here.

"galadriel story was ever change" <- what this have anything to do with the amazon hacks butchering and changing tolkien story? are you for real trying to give then excuse with the previous nonsense talk about "difficulty to determine canon in Tolkien"?

Only Tolkien can change his own shit, period, and just because he could, doesn't means things WOULD have changed neither they SHOULD, by a bunch of amateurs who only worked on a star trek movie.

Either way this quote doesn't rly address the problem that YOU brought up yourself about the movie sidelining stuff to make room for others. Its a flaw that you mentioned in the movies but you want to give a free pass for the show who did FAR worse with the excuse that tolkien could change his work, how this make any sense?

Tolkien uses the term Amazon almost exclusively as a term for female warriors or soldiers, and its gnomish (an early form of Noldorin) translation was gothwin - "goth-" meaning war or strife and "-win" being a female suffix.

He doesn't, again, this is you twisting it, just because he used the term amazon for her, doesn't mean she was a soldier - neither 'commander of the northen armies, or whatever the shit they came up with - I never heard she being called gothwin, only Nerwen , which means man-maiden, because she was taller than other elves and had great feats in athletics.

Trying to use that as a justification for make "warriorguyladriel, who lead an army of numenorians that slay orcs and hunt Sauron and seek revenge for her brother" because 'tolkien changed his stuff" is... is not even funny

Yes it's kinda bait, but the number of people I've seen declaring Galadriel would be a sorceress in battle instead of a warrior is pretty clear evidence that some influencer with zero idea how Tolkien's Elves work was throwing out nonsense that people have lapped up. How do you imagine this "Elven magic" working in a battle situation?

She being a Warrior is the exact the same as she being a sorcerers that you spoke off

None of then make sense, and both have zero idea how tolkien Galadriel works.

It absolutely gels with the conversation between Shahrat and Gorbag wanting to go off with a few good lads and find some nice easy loot, and the Rankin/Bass movie has a catchy song that captures the general reluctance of Orcs to leave their horrible little lives to go off and fight hard targets.

???? just because they CREATE one nonsense to justify doesn't mean it falls in line with orcs in tolkien setting

Orcs are made for war, to raid and kill, there is no such thing as orcs wanting a "nice and lazy life of raiding the weak", because why would be afraid off? death? pfff

Nothing in RoP shows the Orcs being nice at all.

It shows orcs not being like the lotr orcs.

Even the hobbit orcs made sense.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And it is a form of bigotry because it implies that Africans or black people don't have a history or culture of their own that they can see themselves in or that they cannot be validated unless they are included in stories set in Europe.

Just curious as it's come up a few time from a few different posters.

How many generations would you or others say a African/black person has to live in Europe before they can want of be a part of European storys? Is it like the one drop rule were if they have mixed parants/grandparants who imbued them with the history and culture first hand they still shouldn't get to take part? what of African American's or other ex slave family's who actually don't have a history or culture beyond an Europe esc one because of slavery are they just out of luck and only get post slavery stories?

[Rocksteady 87]

your previous comment, and then this one here proves to everyone you have an IQ that's barely above room temp, not to mention you have the same severe mental problem that Adamas also suffers from, you lack the (what some might call basic) ability to compartmentalize and to distinguish between different aspects of a discussion based on context clues, so thanks for that.

Mmkay, if you say so. Please, continue raging about black dwarves and how it's the worst thing to ever happen in all of existence. Especially given that the person you people are bitching and crying about the most is arguably one of the best characters on the show. "Skin color is important, whaaa, but I'm not a racist, whaaaa! I mean, I'm cool with hair colors, eye colors, and inappropriate languages and accents, but that black skin color--and only black skin colors--are too much! NOT RACIST THO! HONEST!"

I also particularly like how you act like everyone is compartmentalized in the show despite trading between kingdoms and other lands is huge. I mean, parts of season two is taking place in fucking Rhun for fuck's sake, with dudes just running back and forth with Game of Thrones-level teleportation speeds.

[Lahis]

Mmkay, if you say so. Please, continue raging about black dwarves and how it's the worst thing to ever happen in all of existence. Especially given that the person you people are bitching and crying about the most is arguably one of the best characters on the show. "Skin color is important, whaaa, but I'm not a racist, whaaaa! I mean, I'm cool with hair colors, eye colors, and inappropriate languages and accents, but that black skin color--and only black skin colors--are too much! NOT RACIST THO! HONEST!"

Funny Fantasy Races can have skintones in ranges and hues that make gaming PC RGBs jealous, but once the color is brown or black, people suddenly start to question the lore and worldbuilding. Reeeaally subtle, those complains.

[rogoth]

Mmkay, if you say so. Please, continue raging about black dwarves and how it's the worst thing to ever happen in all of existence. Especially given that the person you people are bitching and crying about the most is arguably one of the best characters on the show. "Skin color is important, whaaa, but I'm not a racist, whaaaa! I mean, I'm cool with hair colors, eye colors, and inappropriate languages and accents, but that black skin color--and only black skin colors--are too much! NOT RACIST THO! HONEST!"

I also particularly like how you act like everyone is compartmentalized in the show despite trading between kingdoms and other lands is huge. I mean, parts of season two is taking place in fucking Rhun for fuck's sake, with dudes just running back and forth with Game of Thrones-level teleportation speeds.

I do say so, because of this:

everyone is compartmentalized in the show

not only is that not AT ALL what I'm referring to when I'm talking about compartmentalizing a conversation, but I feel like it would not only be a waste of time trying to explain it to you but also even if it was explained to you, you have demonstrated here that you lack the necessary faculties to understand said explanation.

furthermore, you're so hopped up on this racism bullshit, you can't see the forest for the trees, but that's fine, I can't expect much from someone who struggles with basic English.

if I had to use a metaphor, you're like a tourist on a boat trip who sees an iceberg (this topic) and thinks that what you see on the surface is all there is to it, you lack the clear understanding that your tiny little surface level nonsense is a pathetically small amount of the total sum.

as for the rest of your asinine comment, can you please explain what inappropriate language they used? As for the rest, they tried to portray the show as being set in Rhun, really? so where the fuck are all the Asian and Mongolian actors who should be present as extras/main cast members of that region? OH! That's right, Amazon and by extension, these hacks masquerading as writers don't care about that sort of representation, they only care about their own brand of representation, and that's the token kind they can sell to the moronic mindless drones such as yourself who eat this shit up.

Why does Sauron never travel to these places in the show and assume his Zigur persona? Why doesn't the show ever use ACTUAL communities of black people in the form of the many tribes of Harondor? That's right kiddo, because that doesn't sell the diversity narrative that their tokenism requires.

but again I shouldn't expect a simpleton such as yourself to grasp these concepts, it's clearly beyond you.

[Rocksteady 87]

I do say so, because of this:

Oh, I'm sorry, did I use a word similar to one you used, but in a completely different and wholly unrelated context? I'm EVER so sorry.

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Funny Fantasy Races can have skintones in ranges and hues that make gaming PC RGBs jealous, but once the color is brown or black, people suddenly start to question the lore and worldbuilding. Reeeaally subtle, those complains.

Exactly. You get it.

[rogoth]

Just curious as it's come up a few time from a few different posters.

How many generations would you or others say a African/black person has to live in Europe before they can want of be a part of European storys? Is it like the one drop rule were if they have mixed parants/grandparants who imbued them with the history and culture first hand they still shouldn't get to take part? what of African American's or other ex slave family's who actually don't have a history or culture beyond an Europe esc one because of slavery are they just out of luck and only get post slavery stories?

seeing as you struggle, I'll make this VERY EASY for you to understand, only in the USA does the term

African American

exist, in most places around the world, and let's take the UK as an example, a person of colour born here would simply just be 'British', because only in America does it matter where someone originally comes from, it's a uniquely racist term used to segregate a community of people while making said community of people think it's a good thing, most other developed nations refer to their people simply as the general term to describe ALL people from that particular national plural.

i hope that answers your asinine and frankly pathetic question.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Just curious as it's come up a few time from a few different posters.

How many generations would you or others say a African/black person has to live in Europe before they can want of be a part of European storys? Is it like the one drop rule were if they have mixed parants/grandparants who imbued them with the history and culture first hand they still shouldn't get to take part? what of African American's or other ex slave family's who actually don't have a history or culture beyond an Europe esc one because of slavery are they just out of luck and only get post slavery stories?

We've actually had a few individuals who left very significant marks on European history over the centuries :

Saint Maurice, a 3rd Century Egyptian that got Martyred in the Alps together with his Legion, and left a considerable mark, with numerous places named after him.

General Thomas-Alexandre Dumas, the mixed son of a noblemen and a slave, for a time a slave himself, then a prominent general of the Revolutionary Period. Father of famed French author Alexandre Dumas.

Abraham Hannibal, once a slave, then later a general in the imperial Russian army, ancestor to famed Russian writer and poet Alexander Pushkin.

What those all had in common, was that they had origins of their own, which were integral to their life story, and weren't just a substitute for another people of randomized characteristics. But yeah, much harm has been done by north-european/anglo/american weird one-drop rule shenanigans and their ripples accross history.

Having people become replaceable cogs is a hallmark of industrialization, which ills Tolkien was keen on higlighting, which is why his characters all had myths, languages, traditions, lineages and ancestries of their own.

[rogoth]

Oh, I'm sorry, did I use a word similar to one you used, but in a completely different and wholly unrelated context? I'm EVER so sorry.

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Exactly. You get it.

no, you didn't, you used a word that doesn't have any context or any meaning to the point you were trying to make in a sad attempt to make it seem like you were being smarter than you actually are, you failed to use the word correctly in any capacity, but if you want to think it works then power to you.

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We've actually had a few individuals who left very significant marks on European history over the centuries :

Saint Maurice, a 3rd Century Egyptian that got Martyred in the Alps together with his Legion, and left a considerable mark, with numerous places named after him.

General Thomas-Alexandre Dumas, the mixed son of a noblemen and a slave, for a time a slave himself, then a prominent general of the Revolutionary Period. Father of famed French author Alexandre Dumas.

Abraham Hannibal, once a slave, then later a general in the imperial Russian army, ancestor to famed Russian writer and poet Alexander Pushkin.

What those all had in common, was that they had origins of their own, which were integral to their life story, and weren't just a substitute for another people of randomized characteristics. But yeah, much harm has been done by north-european/anglo/american weird one-drop rule shenanigans and their ripples accross history.

Having people become replaceable cogs is a hallmark of industrialization, which ills Tolkien was keen on higlighting, which is why his characters all had myths, languages, traditions, lineages and ancestries of their own.

it's very ironic you say this when this show is doing EXACTLY the thing Tolkien despised and what the character of Saruman represents in his guise as 'Sharky', these 'writers' are the personification of that, yet we're all supposed to clap and laud them for their grand vision?

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Funny Fantasy Races can have skintones in ranges and hues that make gaming PC RGBs jealous, but once the color is brown or black, people suddenly start to question the lore and worldbuilding. Reeeaally subtle, those complains.

it's funny how you seem to have forgotten we used to be great raiding buddies many years ago, back when your main was a shaman, it hurts to know that that period of a few years is so easily forgotten, not to mention (at least talking about myself here), I am specifically talking about the characters in the show, I couldn't care less about what actors play whatever character and have mentioned multiple times I have no ill will against any of them, yet there's a few notable posters in this thread that want to spin that narrative, because that's the only way they know how to argue.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

it's very ironic you say this when this show is doing EXACTLY the thing Tolkien despised and what the character of Saruman represents in his guise as 'Sharky', these 'writers' are the personification of that, yet we're all supposed to clap and laud them for their grand vision?

Well yeah, that's why I'm pointing this out. Guess they choose the simplest way to "write the story Tolkien never wrote" : invert everything.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

seeing as you struggle, I'll make this VERY EASY for you to understand, only in the USA does the term exist, in most places around the world, and let's take the UK as an example, a person of colour born here would simply just be 'British', because only in America does it matter where someone originally comes from, it's a uniquely racist term used to segregate a community of people while making said community of people think it's a good thing, most other developed nations refer to their people simply as the general term to describe ALL people from that particular national plural.

i hope that answers your asinine and frankly pathetic question.

Jesus, read my post again you blundering goon. I specifically first used African/black with a direct European line through Parants or grand parents before asking about a second group being African Americans with a “ Europe esc” culture as there not in Europe.

I went out of my way to separate African Americans and African/black people with generations in Europe and you were to thick to get it.

[Triceron]

I agree with most of what you wrote I just want to touch on this. There is canon and then there expectations people have that have been enforced by books, illustrations, movies etc... Canon is what J.R.R. Tolkien wrote and published himself or things that had his stamp of approval. period.

Now all the other stuff that came after that set up people's expectations. Not canon but they help flush out the world. There are things that have been debated and interpreted differently, and then there are things that have been well established through years of books, illustration, animation, movies that have created a common vision. So when someone comes around and creates something that flies in the face of that well establised vision, it is understandable that they don't like it.

Companies are free to take creative license and do as they please. People are free to think what they did sucks because it ignores everything that came before it.

This.

What we're talking about is more 'Extended Universe', which is inclusive to all published works that have contributed to adapting or expanding the world that Tolkien has established. And when talking about any type of EU, it's gonna be a finnicky subject. Some things are gonna be seen as more authentic to people's understanding of Middle Earth than Tolkien's own descriptions.

[Syegfryed]

Funny Fantasy Races can have skintones in ranges and hues that make gaming PC RGBs jealous, but once the color is brown or black, people suddenly start to question the lore and worldbuilding. Reeeaally subtle, those complains.

Everyone question about those things, if they aren't explained, its our curious nature

Even in wow people ask why blackrock and dragonmaw orcs are grey and why the dragonmaw have red glowing eyes.

When there is no question, its because we already have answers, like with trolls, we know sand trolls are like that because they live in a desert, we know forest trolls have fur with moss. If we suddenly have a Troll that was RED? people will fucking start to question.

Even in dnd we have that, sea elves are blue cause they adapted to live in the sea, drow elves are purple with white hair because thy were twisted by an evil god and so on

So this isn't not rly a good argument

[bledgor]

Not really. Dunno if you've watched the Hobbit, but it's quite the clusterfuck - and people got over it.

Get over yourself. You're not important.

Jackson didn't create the hobbit films, and quite obviously we are talking about the LotR trilogy. Also the Hobbit films are and were quite rightly mocked for a ton of things in them, including the extra bits added. You are doing no favors for making the case the RoP aren't hot garbage.

I also have no clue what pointing out the flaws in the argument have to do with me or being important, especially on this hole in the wall forum. You do know if you defend a billion dollar company they aren't going to pay you for it?

[Rocksteady 87]

no, you didn't, you used a word that doesn't have any context or any meaning to the point you were trying to make in a sad attempt to make it seem like you were being smarter than you actually are, you failed to use the word correctly in any capacity, but if you want to think it works then power to you.

Wrong. But that's usual for you.

People here are whining about the black dwarves (and to a lesser extent elves) by crying, weeping, and pounding their fists to the ground about how it doesn't "make sense" for these 100% cosmopolitan cultures to be cosmopolitan (that's a fancy way to say "mixed races and cultures"). They're whole argument is that they're compartimentalized and have absolutely no contact with anyone else, even though that's not only ridiculously stupid, but demonstratively wrong.

It really is amazing how strong the connection between racists and (voluntary) ignorance is.