Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Veggie50]

I'd like to see the War of the Last Alliance, if we can, but there's so much time compression that has to happen. I feel like next season will be focused on the downfall of Numenor and the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. Also calling it now, Pharazon is going to be a Ringwraith. Dunno if he's going to be the Witch-King but he's definitely gonna be one of them.

I so wanted halbrand to be a future wraith. That would’ve been awesome writing imo.

[rhorle]

Everything he published he himelf considered fixed, so THERE IS canon, and there is the rest.

No. He didn't consider his published work as fixed. He was even stopped from publishing revisions because it ruined the tone of The Hobbit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hobbit#Revisions

[Shadowferal]

Hmm..
...the second son to King Tar-Ciryatan, Er-Mûrazôr (Adûnaic "The Black Prince") grew to be one of the most powerful and influential individuals in Númenor. He was born in the 2nd Age 1820 in the port city of Andunië on the island of Númenor, during a solar eclipse. His given name was Tindomul. (Quenya "Twilight Son"), although those in Tar-Ciryatan's court, hostile to the Elves, preferred to call him by his Adûnaic appellation: Mûrazôr....

You know him as the Witch-King.

[Fabinas]

No. He didn't consider his published work as fixed. He was even stopped from publishing revisions because it ruined the tone of The Hobbit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hobbit#Revisions

Revisions made by external reasons, like adjusting it with LotR or renewing the US copyright. Not because he thought his original work needed one on its own.

Also: "He abandoned the new revision at chapter three after he received criticism that it "just wasn't The Hobbit", implying it had lost much of its light-hearted tone and quick pace." Which is nothing near to publishing that revision.

[rhorle]

Revisions made by external reasons, like adjusting it with LotR or renewing the US copyright. Not because he thought his original work needed one on its own.

You contradict yourself. Adjusting The Hobbit to fit Lord of the Rings is because he thought his original work needed to change. He didn't consider any of his work in a fixed state. It would change as he saw reason to change it even if those changes didn't get published. Partial scenes were incorporated into new editions. There is no indication how close the abandoned The Hobbit revisions were to being published. His publishers would included scene changes into a new editions.


Tolkien sent this revised version of the chapter "Riddles in the Dark" to Unwin as an example of the kinds of changes needed to bring the book into conformity with The Lord of the Rings, but he heard nothing back for years. When he was sent galley proofs of a new edition, Tolkien was surprised to find that the sample text had been incorporated.

[ringpriest]

Hmm..
...the second son to King Tar-Ciryatan, Er-Mûrazôr (Adûnaic "The Black Prince") grew to be one of the most powerful and influential individuals in Númenor. He was born in the 2nd Age 1820 in the port city of Andunië on the island of Númenor, during a solar eclipse. His given name was Tindomul. (Quenya "Twilight Son"), although those in Tar-Ciryatan's court, hostile to the Elves, preferred to call him by his Adûnaic appellation: Mûrazôr....

You know him as the Witch-King.

That's from Iron Crown Enterprises' old RPG supplement on the Nazgul. It's very well done, and if you want backgrounds for the Ringwraiths, you're likely not going to find better ones anywhere, but it was not written by Tolkien.

If you want an excellent deep dive into who (as in "what sort of person" but not a specific character in the corpus) the Lord of the Nazgul might have been, there's a good one here: http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm

[Shadowferal]

That's from Iron Crown Enterprises' old RPG supplement on the Nazgul. It's very well done, and if you want backgrounds for the Ringwraiths, you're likely not going to find better ones anywhere, but it was not written by Tolkien.

There were a lot of beautiful geeks back then..

If you want an excellent deep dive into who (as in "what sort of person" but not a specific character in the corpus) the Lord of the Nazgul might have been, there's a good one here: http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm

Thanks!!

[Tuor]

but it was not written by Tolkien.

Hopefully, because the stament doesn't make any sense.

I was confused when i read that.

[Fabinas]

You contradict yourself. Adjusting The Hobbit to fit Lord of the Rings is because he thought his original work needed to change. He didn't consider any of his work in a fixed state. It would change as he saw reason to change it even if those changes didn't get published. Partial scenes were incorporated into new editions. There is no indication how close the abandoned The Hobbit revisions were to being published. His publishers would included scene changes into a new editions.


Tolkien sent this revised version of the chapter "Riddles in the Dark" to Unwin as an example of the kinds of changes needed to bring the book into conformity with The Lord of the Rings, but he heard nothing back for years. When he was sent galley proofs of a new edition, Tolkien was surprised to find that the sample text had been incorporated.

No i'm not. You actually are with your original post.

[DingDongKing]

Jackson didn't create the hobbit films, and quite obviously we are talking about the LotR trilogy. Also the Hobbit films are and were quite rightly mocked for a ton of things in them, including the extra bits added. You are doing no favors for making the case the RoP aren't hot garbage.

I also have no clue what pointing out the flaws in the argument have to do with me or being important, especially on this hole in the wall forum. You do know if you defend a billion dollar company they aren't going to pay you for it?

Hate to break it to you, but ROP doesn’t even have novels it can do 1-1 adaptations of.

Jackson had that for LOTR and still didn’t do it.

I actually think the trilogy of films are superior to the books anyway, which meandered way too much.

[bledgor]

Hate to break it to you, but ROP doesn’t even have novels it can do 1-1 adaptations of.

Jackson had that for LOTR and still didn’t do it.

I actually think the trilogy of films are superior to the books anyway, which meandered way too much.

my guy, Jackson got close with a detailed guide, yes. RoP meanwhile had bullet points they had to cover only before they could invent whatever bullshit they wanted, and they didn't even hit those bullet points. The characters are completely different, the story completely changed, the timeline destroyed, themes subverted. They are so far from Tolkein it is Tolkeins work only in the literally names used.

[Dhrizzle]

Why?

Where is wrong about saying there is canon in tolkien? can you refute this statement? you can argue there is no canon in tolkien? try

What is canon can be defined in several ways. Is it the stuff Tolkien published, is it everything he wrote, is it the things he wrote that he decided should be kept, is it the things he wrote that are "true" within the setting? Hell, there's an argument that everything officially licensed by the IP holder is "canon" in some form which includes the movies, series and any video games that come out.

In your opinion only the works published by Tolkien should be considered canon, but then all your complaints about the series fall flat because the vast majority of what Tolkien wrote you regard as non-canon, and the writings you do accept are canonically written by unreliable narrators with a limited perspective and passed through a couple of translations.

They actually are:

Except no, because your definition says the word "trade" can be used for a particular type of job. Not all jobs can be called trades and the terms can not be used interchangeably in all contexts. If a new business opens with opportunities for employment you wouldn't say it is adding trades to the local economy you would say it was adding jobs. If a factory shuts down because manufacturing is moving overseas you wouldn't say another country is taking local trades, you would say they were taking local jobs, and in a South Park meme people aren't complaining about immigrants coming and taking trades, they say they are taking JERBS.

Except he was concerned about elves who don't sleep and get tired GOING TO NUMENOR to take their trade - their job -, it have nothing to do with a rival nation.

In the same way Americans can complain about Chinese workers with lower wages and less safety regulations, it doesn't mean concerns about immigration. And look at the context of the scene - they aren't worried about Elven immigrants coming across the border, they are worried about an Elf having an audience with the queen. Pharazon doesn't assure people by saying that Elves won't be able to move to the island and seek employment, he says Elves will not take the helm of Numenor. It is fears of a superior people having undue influence, not of subsistence workers coming in accepting low wages. There's next to zero correlation with modern concerns over immigration.

You actually mean rings of power is twisting and misunderstanding tolkien ideas, butchering his canon lore and creating their own crap

they are not "playing around tolkien ideas", not by one bit

You mean the canon lore you say isn't canon?

[quote]You know your point here falls flat when LITERALLY the rings of power show CHANGES finalised stuff, right?

Nothing written about the Second Age received the same level of care and attention as The Lord of the Rings in ensuring it is a finished product that the author considered ready for publication.

And i already told you, just because he uses the term to describe one person, doesn't mean every person who got that nickname are related to soldiers, or are soldiers

An Amazon is a tall woman with great athletics, that CAN be used for soldiers, because soldiers are great in athletics AS WELL.

Using that as justification for Guyladriel in the show - who goes against finalized and canon lore - is laughable

Except Galadriel warrior from the show is NOT well established in the lore.

Galadriel warrior and Galadriel sorcerer are exact the same, nonexistent and not canon.

It was, there was nothing else to flesh out, because its not her story.

Headcanon and fanfics exist since the beginning of fandom yes

She is at various points described as an Amazon, as a commander, and as someone who has fought ferociously. Her predilection for traditionally masculine pursuits is established both in her stories and in her mother name "Nerwen" which you translate as "Guyladriel" presumably because of an influencer. The "finalised and canon lore" you accept barely mentions anything about what Galadriel did during the Second Age, and the lore Tolkien wrote that you dismiss was ever changing and something he worked upon until his death. People who actually care about Tolkien and aren't just latching on to his work as part of the bullshit culture war have been speculating about how active a role Galadriel took in the wars of Middle-earth long before Amazon secured any rights and her portrayal as a warrior and a commander has justification in the things Tolkien wrote, unlike your insistence she could be a sorcerer which goes against what Tolkien wrote about Elves and the use of magic.

No, they are evil, wicked and twisted, they are there to kill and pillage, who have nothing to do with dnd orcs btw.

The small orcs are goblins and but one of their subspecies, since there are big orcs, even darker ones

Tolkien's Catholic faith was against the idea of sapient beings being irredeemably evil. Yes Orcs are twisted, have a tendency towards evil deeds and enjoy killing and pillaging. They're also small (about Hobbit sized,) wretched and pitiable beings. The term Orc is synonymous with Goblin and the two words are used interchangeably. The Black Uruks or Uruk Hai are larger breeds yes (though still smaller than Men,) and they have training that makes them more formidable warriors but they still aren't the willing soldiers who enjoy marching to war at the behest of a Dark Lord. Shagrat and Gorbag were Uruk-hai but resented having to fight in the big war and would rather have fled for easy pickings.

If you actually mean the guys who took frodo when he was fucked by shelob, yeah very nice and easy life they wanted when they tried to kill each other and caused a slaughter in the place, such nice orcs lmaoooo

What exactly about them wanting to leave the war to get easier pickings at loot somewhere out of the way makes you think they were "nice." Orcs aren't nice, but that doesn't exclude them from wanting an easy life raiding soft targets.

[Syegfryed]

What is canon can be defined in several ways.

Not rly, what is canon is what he published. That is not up to debate.

Except no, because your definition says the word "trade" can be used for a particular type of job. Not all jobs can be called trades and the terms can not be used interchangeably in all contexts.

And the particular type of job are the ones the numenorian was speaking off, how is that hard to understand?

You are arguing that just because its not applied to all jobs in the world its not applied here? bullshit

The scene is 100% allegory to immigration, elves taking your trades/jobs, numenorians will be replaced because elves don't tire, don't sleep, better workers, anyone could see what the scene implied.

In the same way Americans can complain about Chinese workers with lower wages and less safety regulations, it doesn't mean concerns about immigration.

LMAO what??? of course it courcers that, you just prove it, immagine business taking immigrants because they can pay less and don't care about safety regulations? LOL

You mean the canon lore you say isn't canon?

No, they butcher the canon and the legendarium the same.

Nothing written about the Second Age received the same level of care and attention as The Lord of the Rings in ensuring it is a finished product that the author considered ready for publication.

The thing is, there are events of the second age mentioned in lotr who got changed for the show, other canon stuff, also changed for the show

She is at various points described as an Amazon, as a commander, and as someone who has fought ferociously.

Already went over this with ringpriest, Galadriel was described as a commander and strategist, not a warrior or a soldier. she didn't go into battle to kill orcs with her sword, she gave orders and made plans

Tolkien's Catholic faith was against the idea of sapient beings being irredeemably evil.

That's not the point, because that goes into what he did not finish of his work, and by this, we only go by what is canon -aka what i published - from lotr and the hobbit about orcs, and that have nothing to do with rings of shit.

What exactly about them wanting to leave the war to get easier pickings at loot somewhere out of the way makes you think they were "nice."

What makes you think they actually wanted to leave the war? do they state that in their dialogues? cause i don't remember one bit of that

[Dhrizzle]

And finally, as to sorcery, setting aside the mind-reading and telepathy and clairvoyance in Fellowship, in the Appendices of LotR,
While the final reference is clearly a reference to to Luthien and her destruction of Sauron's fortress of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, that does not make it less real within Tolkien's sub-created world. And if ripping Sauron's fortress apart with her own power (this is post Ring-destruction) isn't "sorcery", then nothing is.

I'm going to address this because while Tolkien never explicitly described a solid magical system like many fantasy IPs do he clearly had several mechanisms for "magic" in mind and how Galdriel pulled down Dol Guldur was explained brilliantly in a Reddit thread I read a while ago.

First up it isn't "sorcery" as that is a specific discipline used only by the wicked and works by manipulating "Morgoth matter" imbued into the world that marred Arda. Nor is it "magia," the creation of real physical effects on the world purely through the exertion of will. Magia is used pretty much at will by the Ainur, is restricted to the Istari in ways not fully explained and used seldom or not at all by the Children. The destruction of Dol Guldur seems to be an accomplishment of "lore" - understanding of the intrinsically magical nature of the world and the learning or development of words and songs of power - exercised through some sort of authority or possession.

You are right to draw a comparison with Luthien throwing down Sauron's fortress. Christopher Tolkien notes that Finrod could have achieved the same thing as he originally built the tower as the original Minas Tirith, however by taking possession of the tower Sauron had "changed the locks" so to speak so while Finrod possessed the lore he did not have the authority. When Huon has Sauron at his mercy Luthien demands he teaches her the "lore" of the tower and surrenders his authority. This allows her to sing a song of power that undoes the spells binding the fortress together, not so much a result of her own power but through an application of her wisdom and possession.

Fast forward to when the shadow first rises in Dol Guldur and we have a story of Galadriel travelling the land seeking advice from other great leaders. One of these was Thranduil, father of Legolas. His father Oropher had built Dol Guldur as his stronghold back when it was Amon Lanc. It's worth noting that Galadriel and Celeborn only moved against the fortress when Sauron had been defeated. Without the Dark Lord to contest it Galadriel could take possession of Dol Guldur and, using the Lore gained from Thranduil about its construction, sing her own song of power to unmake its construction. Again not purely a matter of using her own "power," but manipulating the fundamentally magical world. A great feat worthy of a great Noldor Loremaster, but not an act of magia that competes with wizardry and sorcery.

[ringpriest]

my guy, Jackson got close with a detailed guide, yes. RoP meanwhile had bullet points they had to cover only before they could invent whatever bullshit they wanted, and they didn't even hit those bullet points. The characters are completely different, the story completely changed, the timeline destroyed, themes subverted. They are so far from Tolkein it is Tolkeins work only in the literally names used.

This. While RoP is far from the only "adaptation" to have tried something like this, it is an exceptionally blatant example. The showrunners took the title, names, and a few bits of setting from Professor Tolkien's work, and then used them to (poorly) tell their own story, very different from the original (and quite arguably significantly inferior to the original as well), while pretending they were telling the original story.

[rhorle]

What makes you think they actually wanted to leave the war? do they state that in their dialogues? cause i don't remember one bit of that

They want to leave the war to be their own group/tribe. They think about the old days prior to Sauron reasserting control. They think Sauron is losing his power and are concerned about their fate because the other side thinks they are as evil as Sauron. This also supports Tolkien's letter that the Orcs were not pure evil and irredeemable. The letter gives context to the canon.


No, I don’t know,’ said Gorbag’s voice. ‘The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don’t enquire how it’s done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side. But He likes ’em; they’re His favourites nowadays, so it’s no use grumbling. I tell you, it’s no game serving down in the city.’

‘You should try being up here with Shelob for company,’ said Shagrat.

‘I’d like to try somewhere where there’s none of ’em. But the war’s on now, and when that’s over things may be easier.’

‘It’s going well, they say.’

‘They would,’ grunted Gorbag. ‘We’ll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d’you say? – if we get a chance, you and me’ll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.’

‘Ah!’ said Shagrat. ‘Like old times.’

‘Yes,’ said Gorbag. ‘But don’t count on it. I’m not easy in my mind. As I said, the Big Bosses, ay,’ his voice sank almost to a whisper, ‘ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped, you say. I say, something has slipped. And we’ve got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks. But don’t forget: the enemies don’t love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we’re done too.’

[Dhrizzle]

Not rly, what is canon is what he published. That is not up to debate.

And yet it is debated.

And the particular type of job are the ones the numenorian was speaking off, how is that hard to understand?

You are arguing that just because its not applied to all jobs in the world its not applied here? bullshit

The scene is 100% allegory to immigration, elves taking your trades/jobs, numenorians will be replaced because elves don't tire, don't sleep, better workers, anyone could see what the scene implied.

It's not, you really need to learn what allegory is, particularly what Tolkien said about allegory and applicability, unless you think Lord of the Rings is an allegory for WW1 in which case there's no helping you.

LMAO what??? of course it courcers that, you just prove it, immagine business taking immigrants because they can pay less and don't care about safety regulations? LOL

The safety regulations are applied by the country the industry is present in. Jobs move overseas because other countries have less stringent regulations and can get the work done cheaper. This is really basic stuff...

Already went over this with ringpriest, Galadriel was described as a commander and strategist, not a warrior or a soldier. she didn't go into battle to kill orcs with her sword, she gave orders and made plans

She was described as an Amazon and also mentioned fighting on at least one occasion, and how many Elven commanders or rulers did not also fight?

That's not the point, because that goes into what he did not finish of his work, and by this, we only go by what is canon -aka what i published - from lotr and the hobbit about orcs, and that have nothing to do with rings of shit.

So you are choosing to ignore Tolkien's other writings about Orcs because they don't fit your narrative.

What makes you think they actually wanted to leave the war? do they state that in their dialogues? cause i don't remember one bit of that

Shagrat and Gorbag are resigned to not being able to get away until the war with Gondor is over but certainly don't like it, "I'd like to go somewhere where there's none of them, but the wars on now," but then they want to "slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses."

[Syegfryed]

And yet it is debated.

its not, if he published is canon, period, people saying otherwise are dumb

It's not, you really need to learn what allegory is, particularly what Tolkien said about allegory and applicability, unless you think Lord of the Rings is an allegory for WW1 in which case there's no helping you.

thats another false analogy, yet elves taking "our jobs" is a straight up allegory to immigrants taking people jobs

elves = imigrants

She was described as an Amazon and also mentioned fighting on at least one occasion, and how many Elven commanders or rulers did not also fight?

Already went over this multiple times, having amazon disposition doesn't mean you are an amazon, or that you fought, if you have leading man disposition, doesn't mean you actually stared in a movie.

And how many? at least one, Galadriel, because if she did fought Tolkien would have mentioned exactly that, like he did with the others

So you are choosing to ignore Tolkien's other writings about Orcs because they don't fit your narrative.

Rings of power ignore tolkien other writing just fine, and you defend then, why are you trying to make a gotcha here at me, when im not even doing that?

smells like hypocrisy, not gonna lie.

Shagrat and Gorbag are resigned to not being able to get away until the war with Gondor is over but certainly don't like it, "I'd like to go somewhere where there's none of them, but the wars on now," but then they want to "slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses."

Yet, they still don't dislike what they are doing, and were literally just talking bout going somewhere and kill and loot more, lmao

but sure, that totally gives support to the show say orcs only want a peaceful life with their own land and families, they might as well farm, thats very tolkien orcish

[Dhrizzle]

its not, if he published is canon, period, people saying otherwise are dumb

It makes more sense to say everything he wrote is canon.

but sure, that totally gives support to the show say orcs only want a peaceful life with their own land and families, they might as well farm, thats very tolkien orcish

I think this paragraph beat exemplifies how you're only regurgitating inaccurate guff put out by influencers, and when corrected all you can do is repeat yourself. The Orcs in RoP are shown murdering people and branding slaves. That is nothing like farming and certainly not peaceful. Perhaps when someone puts out a video with some new thoughts you'll post something interesting.

[Askyl]

It makes more sense to say everything he wrote is canon.

Interesting take. So Gandalf and the other wizards just went back and fourth from Valinor from the 2nd age until the 3rd age, since he've written many versions of when and how they arrived? Since all must be canon.

- - - Updated - - -

You probably missed the irony of my post. Don't matter anyways.

Usually Irony is marked in text, normal today is to write a /s for being sarcastic. I didn't understand being toxic, hateful and quite distasteful was an indication of irony.