Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Syegfryed]

And yet it is debated.

its not, if he published is canon, period, people saying otherwise are dumb

It's not, you really need to learn what allegory is, particularly what Tolkien said about allegory and applicability, unless you think Lord of the Rings is an allegory for WW1 in which case there's no helping you.

thats another false analogy, yet elves taking "our jobs" is a straight up allegory to immigrants taking people jobs

elves = imigrants

She was described as an Amazon and also mentioned fighting on at least one occasion, and how many Elven commanders or rulers did not also fight?

Already went over this multiple times, having amazon disposition doesn't mean you are an amazon, or that you fought, if you have leading man disposition, doesn't mean you actually stared in a movie.

And how many? at least one, Galadriel, because if she did fought Tolkien would have mentioned exactly that, like he did with the others

So you are choosing to ignore Tolkien's other writings about Orcs because they don't fit your narrative.

Rings of power ignore tolkien other writing just fine, and you defend then, why are you trying to make a gotcha here at me, when im not even doing that?

smells like hypocrisy, not gonna lie.

Shagrat and Gorbag are resigned to not being able to get away until the war with Gondor is over but certainly don't like it, "I'd like to go somewhere where there's none of them, but the wars on now," but then they want to "slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses."

Yet, they still don't dislike what they are doing, and were literally just talking bout going somewhere and kill and loot more, lmao

but sure, that totally gives support to the show say orcs only want a peaceful life with their own land and families, they might as well farm, thats very tolkien orcish

[Dhrizzle]

its not, if he published is canon, period, people saying otherwise are dumb

It makes more sense to say everything he wrote is canon.

but sure, that totally gives support to the show say orcs only want a peaceful life with their own land and families, they might as well farm, thats very tolkien orcish

I think this paragraph beat exemplifies how you're only regurgitating inaccurate guff put out by influencers, and when corrected all you can do is repeat yourself. The Orcs in RoP are shown murdering people and branding slaves. That is nothing like farming and certainly not peaceful. Perhaps when someone puts out a video with some new thoughts you'll post something interesting.

[Askyl]

It makes more sense to say everything he wrote is canon.

Interesting take. So Gandalf and the other wizards just went back and fourth from Valinor from the 2nd age until the 3rd age, since he've written many versions of when and how they arrived? Since all must be canon.

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You probably missed the irony of my post. Don't matter anyways.

Usually Irony is marked in text, normal today is to write a /s for being sarcastic. I didn't understand being toxic, hateful and quite distasteful was an indication of irony.

[Syegfryed]

It makes more sense to say everything he wrote is canon.

Thats not how it works, and only Tolkien can defacto say everything he wrote is canon

I think this paragraph beat exemplifies how you're only regurgitating inaccurate guff put out by influencers, and when corrected all you can do is repeat yourself. The Orcs in RoP are shown murdering people and branding slaves.

Thats why randomly putting an orc who cares about his family and don't want to go to war makes no fucking sense and add NOTHING into the story

is just bad writing

[Fabinas]

Interesting take. So Gandalf and the other wizards just went back and fourth from Valinor from the 2nd age until the 3rd age, since he've written many versions of when and how they arrived? Since all must be canon.

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Usually Irony is marked in text, normal today is to write a /s for being sarcastic. I didn't understand being toxic, hateful and quite distasteful was an indication of irony.

It's pathetic to call me names because you were unable to understand sarcasm in a post that deserves none of those names. Says more for you than me.

[Dhrizzle]

Interesting take. So Gandalf and the other wizards just went back and fourth from Valinor from the 2nd age until the 3rd age, since he've written many versions of when and how they arrived? Since all must be canon.

Yes and Sauron shared his fortress with Telvido the Prince of Cats and Melkor/Melkor simultaneously made the Orcs from mud, Elves and Men.

Although as all his stories are framed as myths and legends told by unreliable narrators and translated at least once you can accept all is canon in some way even if it is not necessarily "true" to the history of Arda. For example the story of Luthien Vs Telvido could be a fairy tale that preserves a sliver of history long after the people have forgotten about Sauron.

[Veggie50]

Not rly, what is canon is what he published. That is not up to debate.



And the particular type of job are the ones the numenorian was speaking off, how is that hard to understand?

You are arguing that just because its not applied to all jobs in the world its not applied here? bullshit

The scene is 100% allegory to immigration, elves taking your trades/jobs, numenorians will be replaced because elves don't tire, don't sleep, better workers, anyone could see what the scene implied.


LMAO what??? of course it courcers that, you just prove it, immagine business taking immigrants because they can pay less and don't care about safety regulations? LOL



No, they butcher the canon and the legendarium the same.



The thing is, there are events of the second age mentioned in lotr who got changed for the show, other canon stuff, also changed for the show



Already went over this with ringpriest, Galadriel was described as a commander and strategist, not a warrior or a soldier. she didn't go into battle to kill orcs with her sword, she gave orders and made plans



That's not the point, because that goes into what he did not finish of his work, and by this, we only go by what is canon -aka what i published - from lotr and the hobbit about orcs, and that have nothing to do with rings of shit.



What makes you think they actually wanted to leave the war? do they state that in their dialogues? cause i don't remember one bit of that

I have no idea where I stand on your debate, because I lack the will to read your flamewar thingie, but the sentence “this is not up for debate” is categorically wrong.

Everything is up for debate, if someone wants to debate it.

[Dhrizzle]

Thats not how it works, and only Tolkien can defacto say everything he wrote is canon

If it's authentically Tolkien's writings on Middle-earth then it is part of the canon. Some people are his published works as "hard canon" and his unpublished writings as "soft canon" but it is all part of the canon.

Thats why randomly putting an orc who cares about his family and don't want to go to war makes no fucking sense and add NOTHING into the story

is just bad writing

What are you talking about? It's the same Orc that's shown murdering and branding who doesn't want to march off and get a load of Orcs killed. Either watch the show yourself or find a better influencer to regurgitate 'cos the one you have at the moment does not deserve your clicks.

[Syegfryed]

I have no idea where I stand on your debate, because I lack the will to read your flamewar thingie, but the sentence “this is not up for debate” is categorically wrong.

Everything is up for debate, if someone wants to debate it.

So you just wanted to be smirk and nitpick, ok, you can debate it and be wrong about it

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If it's authentically Tolkien's writings on Middle-earth then it is part of the canon.

Again, not how it works, because nothing everything he wrote he finished, there is drafts and stuff he change or planned to change, those are not considered "canon" in the sense of the word, what you want to say is that everything is part of the lengendariun/mythos, but not his canon

What are you talking about?

Read again and you will understand

[Triceron]

Yes and Sauron shared his fortress with Telvido the Prince of Cats and Melkor/Melkor simultaneously made the Orcs from mud, Elves and Men.

Although as all his stories are framed as myths and legends told by unreliable narrators and translated at least once you can accept all is canon in some way even if it is not necessarily "true" to the history of Arda. For example the story of Luthien Vs Telvido could be a fairy tale that preserves a sliver of history long after the people have forgotten about Sauron.

They handle inconsistencies between The Hobbit and LotR by framing the story being told and written from Bilbo's perspective. Similar logic can be applied to all inconsistencies, if one so chooses.

[Dhrizzle]

So you just wanted to be smirk and nitpick, ok, you can debate it and be wrong about it

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Again, not how it works, because nothing everything he wrote he finished, there is drafts and stuff he change or planned to change, those are not considered "canon" in the sense of the word, what you want to say is that everything is part of the lengendariun/mythos, but not his canon

Sounds like you're saying there's no such thing really as canon in Tolkien because his ideas were ever evolving.

Read again and you will understand

I doubt it because you're just repeating what some influencer has been telling you when they've barely engaged with the show any more than you have.

Please explain why an Orc who is busy building a life of enslavement with all the humans to slaughter or torture he could possibly desire would want to march across the country to fight Elves with swords and armour hiding behind strong walls.

[Syegfryed]

Sounds like you're saying there's no such thing really as canon in Tolkien because his ideas were ever evolving.

No, because there is material that were NOT ever evolving, the stuff he published, set on stone, canon.

Saying there is no such thing as canon is blatantly lying

I doubt it because you're just repeating what some influencer has been telling you when they've barely engaged with the show any more than you have.

There i no repeating, if we both say the same thing, i because we both saw how stupid it was and the scene add nothing to the story with a lame tentative to make things "morally gray"

Please explain why an Orc who is busy building a life of enslavement with all the humans to slaughter or torture he could possibly desire would want to march across the country to fight Elves with swords and armour hiding behind strong walls.

No, you please explain why he would not want do that

[VMSmith]

So my wife showed an interest in this show and I agreed to give it another chance and watch beyond the "rocks sink, boats float" scene. Now, most of the time when people say a show is "bad" and go on at length about how bad it's supposed to be I find that they are just not the audience for the show and they're a bit bitter about that. Like with Star Trek Discovery ... It's not a great show, it's also not a terrible show, it's just pretty mid and that's fine and it found an audience. But, that said, man the first episode of this was such a real stinker, IMO. I didn't enjoy the acting or the story (any particular plot) and most of the time I felt like the show was laughing at me for accepting the tripe it was offering.

Now, it could just be that I'm not the audience for this show, like I mentioned with some people and Discovery (or She-Hulk, The Acolyte, what have you), so I'm not going to be spending my life dogging on it. In fact, I'll probably even watch another episode or two just to give it a chance. But at this point I feel like at least some of the criticism of this show is well-warranted (going by only one episode, mind), though that doesn't mean people can't enjoy it, and the mindless defense of every aspect of the show is just as unreasonable as the mindless attacks of every aspect of the show.

[Dhrizzle]

No, because there is material that were NOT ever evolving, the stuff he published, set on stone, canon.

Saying there is no such thing as canon is blatantly lying

Even that isn't so set in stone, while it is considered "hard canon" compared to the "soft canon" of the rest of the Legendarium Tolkien was pondering changes to things set in LotR, such as having some of the Istari arrive during the Second Age and not the First.

There i no repeating, if we both say the same thing, i because we both saw how stupid it was and the scene add nothing to the story with a lame tentative to make things "morally gray"

The "moral greyness" of Orcs is something Tolkien had discussed.

No, you please explain why he would not want do that

Because he has a home in a land with good opportunities for taking slaves, looting the wrecked human settlements and a bit of casual murder against cowering and broken Men. Why give that up to go and face some terrifying Elves with a decent chance of killing him?

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So my wife showed an interest in this show and I agreed to give it another chance and watch beyond the "rocks sink, boats float" scene. Now, most of the time when people say a show is "bad" and go on at length about how bad it's supposed to be I find that they are just not the audience for the show and they're a bit bitter about that. Like with Star Trek Discovery ... It's not a great show, it's also not a terrible show, it's just pretty mid and that's fine and it found an audience. But, that said, man the first episode of this was such a real stinker, IMO. I didn't enjoy the acting or the story (any particular plot) and most of the time I felt like the show was laughing at me for accepting the tripe it was offering.

Now, it could just be that I'm not the audience for this show, like I mentioned with some people and Discovery (or She-Hulk, The Acolyte, what have you), so I'm not going to be spending my life dogging on it. In fact, I'll probably even watch another episode or two just to give it a chance. But at this point I feel like at least some of the criticism of this show is well-warranted (going by only one episode, mind), though that doesn't mean people can't enjoy it, and the mindless defense of every aspect of the show is just as unreasonable as the mindless attacks of every aspect of the show.

There is a fair bit of criticism that can be levelled at the show, the "why do boats sink" is a great example of dialogue that was clearly supposed to be profound but just sounds silly. My biggest issue is how terrible they are at showing the passage of time or things happening. Season 1 had people zipping all over the continent with no indication they had been travelling or time passing, they just go from Numenor one moment to the Southlands the next. Season 2 had the defensive wall around Eregion being vaguely mentioned in a scene then suddenly being whole when they do an exterior shot. Overall I find it isn't very well made and too often you have to fill in the blanks yourself.

[Syegfryed]

Even that isn't so set in stone, while it is considered "hard canon" compared to the "soft canon" of the rest of the Legendarium Tolkien was pondering changes to things set in LotR, such as having some of the Istari arrive during the Second Age and not the First.

Again: doesn't matter, it only stop being canon if tolkien state so or retcon in future published orcs

The "moral greyness" of Orcs is something Tolkien had discussed.

Never made canon, and he only talk about their potential to be redeemable, not about wanting to live a family life

Because he has a home in a land with good opportunities for taking slaves, looting the wrecked human settlements and a bit of casual murder against cowering and broken Men. Why give that up to go and face some terrifying Elves with a decent chance of killing him?

Why not? he is a orc, moved by the desire to kill and destroy, why he would not want kill elves?

Terrifying? elve sin rings of power are shit and canonically retarded, orcs had a stronger force, more numbers and even siege weapons who could tear down mountains

There is literally no reason for him to not go to war and kill, when it is what they are made for, again, it was dumb scene that add nothing to the story and contradict the orcs in the setting.

[VMSmith]

There is a fair bit of criticism that can be levelled at the show, the "why do boats sink" is a great example of dialogue that was clearly supposed to be profound but just sounds silly.

I think that was probably my main complaint in the first episode, too much of the dialogue sounds like someone trying so desperately to sound "Tokien-esque" but really doesn't have the cleverness for it. tbf, not many people have a mind as sharp as Tolkiens and as able to make that flowery way of talking sound natural. I felt this as well in the acting every time someone tried to say Morrrrrgoth or Gaaaah-lahd-rrrrrrriel, if you know what I mean Like everyone was trying to hard to be taken seriously.

Also, the Harfoots were just ... ugh.

All that said, the landscapes were absolutely gorgeous. Arondir was probably the most interesting part of episode one

[Dhrizzle]

Again: doesn't matter, it only stop being canon if tolkien state so or retcon in future published orcs

Nah, everything Tolkien wrote is canon that's why Christopher published it. It's just that the canon is so changeable, contradictory and incomplete it doesn't really exist in the way most people consider the "canon" of a setting.

Never made canon, and he only talk about their potential to be redeemable, not about wanting to live a family life

By your restrictive definition pretty much nothing in the Legendarium is canon.

Why not? he is a orc, moved by the desire to kill and destroy, why he would not want kill elves?

Terrifying? elve sin rings of power are shit and canonically retarded, orcs had a stronger force, more numbers and even siege weapons who could tear down mountains

There is literally no reason for him to not go to war and kill, when it is what they are made for, again, it was dumb scene that add nothing to the story and contradict the orcs in the setting.

Because these are Tolkien Orcs that are cowardly and wretched, not Warhammer Orks looking for the best fights because they love it.

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I'm loving it because it touches on so much of the deeper lore and if you can find a space away from the "purists" it's generating great conversations, and there are some outstanding performances.

[Syegfryed]

Nah, everything Tolkien wrote is canon that's why Christopher published it. It's just that the canon is so changeable, contradictory and incomplete it doesn't really exist in the way most people consider the "canon" of a setting.

Ok if you want to be wrong about it, you have the right to be so.

By your restrictive definition pretty much nothing in the Legendarium is canon.

If he published it is, if he didn't its not.

Because these are Tolkien Orcs that are cowardly and wretched, not Warhammer Orks looking for the best fights because they love it.

Again: not the case with what show in the show with the orc family and the orc baby, this doesn't show they are cowardly and wretched, and being cowardly is not their trait because they do go to war on a daily basis, on others or on each other. the scene was bad

I'm loving it because it touches on so much of the deeper lore and if you can find a space away from the "purists" it's generating great conversations, and there are some outstanding performances.

Its funny that you mentioned the boat sink scene, when the entire show is filled with crap like that, sure its generating a lot "great conversations" for great modern intellectuals, and outstanding performances like guyladriel hiding the horse

[rhorle]

If he published it is, if he didn't its not.

Which version of his published work though? Tolkien didn't see his work as fixed. He was constantly changing it even if all of those changes didn't get published. Tolkien did show that Orcs could be cowardly despite also being warmongers. What you are describing fits Uruks. However they were not the only type of orc and seemed to have been bred/created specifically to get rid of the weakness of normal goblins/orcs.

[DingDongKing]

my guy, Jackson got close with a detailed guide, yes. RoP meanwhile had bullet points they had to cover only before they could invent whatever bullshit they wanted, and they didn't even hit those bullet points. The characters are completely different, the story completely changed, the timeline destroyed, themes subverted. They are so far from Tolkein it is Tolkeins work only in the literally names used.

You can keep trying to make it seem like there's some heresy at play here - there isn't.

What people need to realise is that digressing from the source material isn't the problem, not doing it properly is.