Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Dhrizzle]

Ok if you want to be wrong about it, you have the right to be so.

Of course, everyone gets their own opinion and can disagree with others, that's the great thing about there not really being a canon.

If he published it is, if he didn't its not.

So you accept 4 unreliably narrated volumes and dismiss the other 14 plus letters. By your standards pretty much anything can happen in the Second Age without breaking canon.

Again: not the case with what show in the show with the orc family and the orc baby, this doesn't show they are cowardly and wretched, and being cowardly is not their trait because they do go to war on a daily basis, on others or on each other. the scene was bad

Have you even watched the scene, there is no baby in it.

Its funny that you mentioned the boat sink scene, when the entire show is filled with crap like that, sure its generating a lot "great conversations" for great modern intellectuals, and outstanding performances like guyladriel hiding the horse

What hiding the horse, is this another influencer meme I missed out on? I don't think it's really accurate to call Tolkien fans "modern intellectuals," just fantasy enjoyers of all ages.

[DarkAmbient]

It's a real shame, then, that the loudest complaint is about the skin color of some actors.

You know, when there's real, actual complaints to be made that aren't fucking racist.

"But I'm not racist! I swear you guys! Just, these black actors are really pissing me off more than all the actual, genuine, objective problems with the show! But fuck them there black actors!"

It's not racist to expect that characters look like they're supposed to.

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You talk like this isn't the whole point of many people made here

Like, its the crux of the problem, they didn't do anything properly with the changes. Maybe just the condescended timelines can be considered something proper, but even that is iffy

Yep. People love the Jackson trilogy but he made a shit ton of changes. Thing is, he did them well.

My preference is for as few changes as possible. But if you're going to do them, at least make them consistent with the logic of the world, and don't make changes that are unnecessary.

[Syegfryed]

It's a real shame, then, that the loudest complaint is about the skin color of some actors.

Thats not rly the loudest complain, its the one that get more traction because its the only thing mouthbreathers can use to defend the show while also attacking people who criticize

"the show isn't bad you are just racist"

You can throw 10 critics, but if you one of then is about the depiction not being accurate its a wall of bitching

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Of course, everyone gets their own opinion and can disagree with others, that's the great thing about there not really being a canon.



So you accept 4 unreliably narrated volumes and dismiss the other 14 plus letters. By your standards pretty much anything can happen in the Second Age without breaking canon.

no one is dismissing anything, there is canon and there is the legendarium/mythos, you just have a hard time to understand the concepts

Have you even watched the scene, there is no baby in it.

then wtf is this?
https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-...200&fit=bounds

What hiding the horse

riding, i misspelled, but she could have done that too, who knows

[Dhrizzle]

then wtf is this?
[URL="https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/66d386fd65e0687e12bf364b/0x0.jpg?format=jpg&height=600&width=1200&fit=bounds"]https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/66d386fd65e0687e12bf364b/0x0.jpg?

Ah yeah my bad, that image some chud clipped ages ago has been going around so long it's replaced my memory of the episode with what looks like Glug and a child.

[Fabinas]

It would indeed be, which is why I didn't. Not sure what you read but it can't have been my post.

Usually Irony is marked in text, normal today is to write a /s for being sarcastic. I didn't understand being toxic, hateful and quite distasteful was an indication of irony.

Oh, i suppose that wasn't you then. How could i have made such a big mistake? I apologize. /s

[Rocksteady 87]

It's not racist to expect that characters look like they're supposed to.

And how are they supposed to look?

Please give the exact quote from Tolkien's work describing their skin color, please.

(Also, yes, it is fucking racist. Doubly so when you become obsessed with it, screaming about it above and beyond everything else. And not even being able to admit that the actors you're bitching and moaning about are doing a great job with their role despite your "the worst travesty to ever befall LotR ever"ness.)

[Askyl]

Oh, i suppose that wasn't you then. How could i have made such a big mistake? I apologize. /s

Well, atleast you've learned something so I take it as a win! But I'm still not sure why you're acting as if I called you names, I said my piece on the way you wrote your text but nothing about you.

Why so hostile?

[rhorle]

It's not racist to expect that characters look like they're supposed to.

It isn't racist if they are not what you expected. It is leaning toward bigotry by continuing to make it an issue though. The story doesn't change from the skin tones being different. Not Tolkien's work and not Amazon's. It could have been book accurate but it isn't. Peter Jackson changed characters around, like making Arwen have a larger role, and people got over it.

As you say though the work was well received (ignoring the ton of hate it got at the time from die-hard tolkien fans) so those changes are not an issue. Which means it isn't the changes but looking for reasons talk about why the show is bad. People keep focusing on skin tone when skin tone has nothing to do with why the show isn't well received.

Disa and Arondir having book-accurate skin tones wouldn't change anything about the show. Ignoring of course that a different actor would have a different performance. If for some reason the same actors were white would their characters be magically better? Would the writing of the show change? Would story issues change?

[Logwyn]

And how are they supposed to look?

Please give the exact quote from Tolkien's work describing their skin color, please.

(Also, yes, it is fucking racist. Doubly so when you become obsessed with it, screaming about it above and beyond everything else. And not even being able to admit that the actors you're bitching and moaning about are doing a great job with their role despite your "the worst travesty to ever befall LotR ever"ness.)

Tolkien describes elves as "tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin."[T 22] The Vanyar were called "The Fair" for their golden hair.[T 23][24] Maeglin is said to have been "tall and black-haired" and "his skin was white."[T 24] Túrin, a Man, was called Elf-man due to his appearance and speech, and described as "dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes."[T 25]

Tolkien 1955, Appendix F
Tolkien 1977, Index, "Vanyar"
Tolkien 1977, ch. 16 "Of Maeglin"
Tolkien 1977, ch. 21 "Of Túrin Turambar"

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1955). The Return of the King. The Lord of the Rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. OCLC 519647821.
Tolkien, J. R. R. (1977). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Silmarillion. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-25730-2.

That's source material. NOTE: I do not care what color the actors are or race or sex or whatever. Doesn't bother me at all if they are good actors. I do love the Rings of Power. I want more seasons and episodes!!!!!!

[DarkAmbient]

It isn't racist if they are not what you expected. It is leaning toward bigotry by continuing to make it an issue though. The story doesn't change from the skin tones being different. Not Tolkien's work and not Amazon's. It could have been book accurate but it isn't. Peter Jackson changed characters around, like making Arwen have a larger role, and people got over it.

As you say though the work was well received (ignoring the ton of hate it got at the time from die-hard tolkien fans) so those changes are not an issue. Which means it isn't the changes but looking for reasons talk about why the show is bad. People keep focusing on skin tone when skin tone has nothing to do with why the show isn't well received.

Disa and Arondir having book-accurate skin tones wouldn't change anything about the show. Ignoring of course that a different actor would have a different performance. If for some reason the same actors were white would their characters be magically better? Would the writing of the show change? Would story issues change?

It's not bigotry to expect established characters to be depicted faithfully. It's an absurd suggestion.

The problem is that the entire topic of faithful adaptations gets muddied by bad faith actors. On one side you've got people who talk about diverse casting in order to spread conservative propaganda. On the other side you've got people who behave like diverse casting is never an issue. Then you've got people who aren't politically invested and don't feel strongly about the topic either way. Finally you've got people like me who just have what is an admittedly borderline autistic aversion to change, and when we complain we get damned by association.

Unfaithful adaptions can be great. Starship Troopers basically shit on the entire premise of the book and one main character got gender swapped, but was a fun film to watch regardless. Blade Runner became legendary for all the right reasons. More recently, The Green Knight was an amazing film that more people should see. It's just that when an adaptation is done badly, eg. Witcher or Rings of Power, some people latch on to miscast characters because they're easier to make memes and YouTube thumbnails out of.

[rhorle]

It's not bigotry to expect established characters to be depicted faithfully. It's an absurd suggestion.

I never said it was. It is leaning towards bigotry to keep going on about it two years after season 1 came out (even longer if you count when it first became known). There is nothing to discuss about being faithful or not. Every adaptation of Lord of the Rings changed things. Peter Jackson changed characters. You aren't damned by association for saying you would prefer to be more book accurate.

People are damned for continuing to harp on a minor issue. One that doesn't impact the adaptation being good or not. As the Peter Jackson work was good even though he drastically changed Arwen's role (including to add a "girl boss" to the movie). You even say people latch onto the skin tone because it is easier to make memes and rage bait about. Guess what those memes and rage bait involve? Racism.

[DarkAmbient]

I did acknowledge that there are bad faith actors out there using diverse casting for reasons other than simply objecting to inaccuracy. But I don't think repeating objections on the basis of inaccuracy constitutes bigotry at all. It might turn in to beating a dead horse, but that's about it.

[rhorle]

I did acknowledge that there are bad faith actors out there using diverse casting for reasons other than simply objecting to inaccuracy. But I don't think repeating objections on the basis of inaccuracy constitutes bigotry at all. It might turn in to beating a dead horse, but that's about it.

It does lean towards bigotry. There is no reason to keep bringing it up. It is a change that happened. It is a change that doesn't impact the story either of Tolkien or Rings of Power. Why does it matter that skin tones don't match? The show is filled with inaccuracies which are bigger then and more impactful then skin tone yet people want to keep beating the dead horse of non-white people existing in the story.

[exochaft]

It does lean towards bigotry. There is no reason to keep bringing it up. It is a change that happened. It is a change that doesn't impact the story either of Tolkien or Rings of Power. Why does it matter that skin tones don't match? The show is filled with inaccuracies which are bigger then and more impactful then skin tone yet people want to keep beating the dead horse of non-white people existing in the story.

It's of getting into the mindset of the creators and their creative intent, because it obviously mattered to said creatives as they had to change the skin tones... otherwise they wouldn't have changed that aspect in adapting.

As you mentioned, if it supposedly doesn't change or impact the story (it does affect setting and lore aspects and immersion for this story, but leave that aside for now), then why did the creators feel like they had to make that change? If one wants to break out the bigotry card, it should be played against the ones who made the change, not the ones who noticed the change and questioned why said creators felt the color of one's skin matters more than faithfully adapting. If they could give a good answer with reasonable logic and make it work in the show, great!... but they haven't, nor is there any appreciable positive change in the show that indicates race swapping was a positive or even necessary/interesting. Instead, the show comes off like the creators are so insanely bigoted that they put their dogmatic ideals above everything else, and the show has suffered greatly from it.

Personally, the race swapping/changing of some of the characters in isolation come off as pretty minor issues, but they are a symptom of a much bigger problem that taps into every other aspects of the show that has been an issue... the creators appear to be prioritizing the wrong things while dropping the ball on the things that matter, like the actual writing and story structure.

[rhorle]

It's of getting into the mindset of the creators and their creative intent, because it obviously mattered to said creatives as they had to change the skin tones... otherwise they wouldn't have changed that aspect in adapting.

No. It doesn't say anything about their mindset other then they wanted to be inclusive. It does not impact the setting and lore aspects for Rings of Power or Tolkien's work. The color of skin doesn't matter for anything in his setting or lore. If he made his characters more diverse nothing changes at all.

It is not bigotry to include people of different skin tones. It is hilarious that you can make an argument like that and expect to be taken seriously. You haven't even given a logical reason for why the show needs to be whites only. It already isn't a faithful adaptation. Neither was Jackson's work. No adaptation is 100% faithful because you can't adapt a long book series into a TV show or Movie without changes for the medium.

The writing and structure of the show would be the same if they had an all white cast. This shows that it is all about racism and the thin veil that you and others use to try and hide it. This isn't something like The Whiz or Romeo + Juliet (1996) where the adaptation is drastically impacted by the changes. The Whiz intentionally changes the story to a modern African American lens. R+J does the same with guns and "pop culture" of the time. The inclusion of skin tone in Rings of Power changes nothing about the story told.

It just exists and you have a problem with it existing. That is bigotry.

[rogoth]

It's of getting into the mindset of the creators and their creative intent, because it obviously mattered to said creatives as they had to change the skin tones... otherwise they wouldn't have changed that aspect in adapting.

As you mentioned, if it supposedly doesn't change or impact the story (it does affect setting and lore aspects and immersion for this story, but leave that aside for now), then why did the creators feel like they had to make that change? If one wants to break out the bigotry card, it should be played against the ones who made the change, not the ones who noticed the change and questioned why said creators felt the color of one's skin matters more than faithfully adapting. If they could give a good answer with reasonable logic and make it work in the show, great!... but they haven't, nor is there any appreciable positive change in the show that indicates race swapping was a positive or even necessary/interesting. Instead, the show comes off like the creators are so insanely bigoted that they put their dogmatic ideals above everything else, and the show has suffered greatly from it.

Personally, the race swapping/changing of some of the characters in isolation come off as pretty minor issues, but they are a symptom of a much bigger problem that taps into every other aspects of the show that has been an issue... the creators appear to be prioritizing the wrong things while dropping the ball on the things that matter, like the actual writing and story structure.

I already explained this in previous posts, it was also explained before s1 even began airing, it's because Amazon has a hiring mandate in place that states there must be a minimum number of castings/hirings that are 'diverse', meaning that any project under the Amazon Prime video umbrella is subject to the racist hiring mandate that will select a candidate based on 'minority representation characteristics' over a candidate that is caucasian.

all this info is freely available on their website and has been documented in this thread, the reason it's not called out at all is because it's 'positive racism', but I suppose that's the current state of the US right now where racism against anybody who is white isn't classed as racism.

[Askyl]

Tolkien describes elves as "tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin."[T 22] The Vanyar were called "The Fair" for their golden hair.[T 23][24] Maeglin is said to have been "tall and black-haired" and "his skin was white."[T 24] Túrin, a Man, was called Elf-man due to his appearance and speech, and described as "dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes."[T 25]

Tolkien 1955, Appendix F
Tolkien 1977, Index, "Vanyar"
Tolkien 1977, ch. 16 "Of Maeglin"
Tolkien 1977, ch. 21 "Of Túrin Turambar"

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1955). The Return of the King. The Lord of the Rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. OCLC 519647821.
Tolkien, J. R. R. (1977). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Silmarillion. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-25730-2.

That's source material. NOTE: I do not care what color the actors are or race or sex or whatever. Doesn't bother me at all if they are good actors. I do love the Rings of Power. I want more seasons and episodes!!!!!!

I know you don't care for truth, but old English (which is Tolkiens absolute favorite!) usually use "Fair" as beautiful. It can also be used to describe "bright", but doesn't need to be the skin tone but rather that elves have an ethereal glow, beautiful skin and are youthful. That fits his other descriptions of elves. When he ever described skin color as "white" he used the word pale, not fair.

Your only "Source" for elves skin color is vastly debatable. Also, have in mind that Tolkien didn't describe some things in detail because he wanted people to drift away in their own mind and filling the blanks.

Some harfoots are supposed to be quite darker in skin tone. Sam is one of them. But I'm guessing you loved the actor that played Sam? Because he did a splendid job even if his skin wasn't the right tone.

Not sure how this is an issue 2024, it's quite sad and pathetic actually.

[Dhrizzle]

I already explained this in previous posts, it was also explained before s1 even began airing, it's because Amazon has a hiring mandate in place that states there must be a minimum number of castings/hirings that are 'diverse', meaning that any project under the Amazon Prime video umbrella is subject to the racist hiring mandate that will select a candidate based on 'minority representation characteristics' over a candidate that is caucasian.

all this info is freely available on their website and has been documented in this thread, the reason it's not called out at all is because it's 'positive racism', but I suppose that's the current state of the US right now where racism against anybody who is white isn't classed as racism.

That is not correct. There is a guideline that says productions should try to ensure a certain number of behind-the-camera crew fit certain minority statuses but this doesn't come at the expense of skill, is not necessarily rigorously enforced and doesn't apply to the casting.

The simple fact people like to ignore is that the actors were hired due to their acting ability, as evinced by the praise piled on Sophia Nomvete and Ismael Cordova. What you're actually advocating for is that these actors and others should have been passed over for less capable people based on their skin colour alone.

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I know you don't care for truth, but old English (which is Tolkiens absolute favorite!) usually use "Fair" as beautiful. It can also be used to describe "bright", but doesn't need to be the skin tone but rather that elves have an ethereal glow, beautiful skin and are youthful. That fits his other descriptions of elves. When he ever described skin color as "white" he used the word pale, not fair.

Your only "Source" for elves skin color is vastly debatable. Also, have in mind that Tolkien didn't describe some things in detail because he wanted people to drift away in their own mind and filling the blanks.

Some harfoots are supposed to be quite darker in skin tone. Sam is one of them. But I'm guessing you loved the actor that played Sam? Because he did a splendid job even if his skin wasn't the right tone.

Not sure how this is an issue 2024, it's quite sad and pathetic actually.

Also Aragorn, Faramir and Boromir should all have been beardless and the Orcs should have been more like Hobbit size without the weird tumour-faces. It's funny how people are quite happy to accept changes for "modern audience" expectations unless there's a chance for them to whine about skin colour.

[rogoth]

That is not correct. There is a guideline that says productions should try to ensure a certain number of behind-the-camera crew fit certain minority statuses but this doesn't come at the expense of skill, is not necessarily rigorously enforced and doesn't apply to the casting.

The simple fact people like to ignore is that the actors were hired due to their acting ability, as evinced by the praise piled on Sophia Nomvete and Ismael Cordova. What you're actually advocating for is that these actors and others should have been passed over for less capable people based on their skin colour alone.

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Also Aragorn, Faramir and Boromir should all have been beardless and the Orcs should have been more like Hobbit size without the weird tumour-faces. It's funny how people are quite happy to accept changes for "modern audience" expectations unless there's a chance for them to whine about skin colour.

it's not a 'guideline' it's a mandate, furthermore, it encompasses ALL aspects of production, and trying to spin it like it's only behind-the-scenes staff are hired based on this mandate is both extremely disingenuous and also entirely misleading.

at the time it was uncovered this mandate existed and was later made publically visible, there were a number of insiders who leaked that management would stringently enforce the policy and even go above and beyond the minimums when they felt it would benefit them, feel free to go back and read all about it, it's pretty damning really.

until this show, nobody had heard of Sophia Nomvete or Ismail cruz Cordova, so I'm not really sure where you're getting this 'acting ability' from, because unless they released the casting tapes for public viewing (never gonna happen), we would never know if they were the best candidates for the roles, or if they were just a part of the mandated hiring quota.

as stated MANY times, nobody really has an issue with these actors themselves, it's the characters they are playing that are the issue, yet you and the others here who can't differentiate between these aspects are still trying to make it about something it very much isn't, it's actually comical at this point just how far out of your way you go to perform the mental gymnastics needed to use the 'you're a racist' jab, it's pathetic really.

as to your other asinine comment, orcs are always described as being deformed and sickly looking, meaning that the 'tumour-faces' make perfect sense based on the myriad descriptions of them, so no clue why that's an issue for you, or is it simply that you detest people who look disfigured and don't want to see it on screen?

Aragorn is a long descendant of Numenor, as stated in a previous response he should appear more Balkan in appearance than he does, same with many of the southern Gondorians, but I guess you only want them to hire people who adhere to your notion of what they should look like right?

[rhorle]

I already explained this in previous posts, it was also explained before s1 even began airing, it's because Amazon has a hiring mandate in place that states there must be a minimum number of castings/hirings that are 'diverse', meaning that any project under the Amazon Prime video umbrella is subject to the racist hiring mandate that will select a candidate based on 'minority representation characteristics' over a candidate that is caucasian.

Both the Academy/Oscars and the British Film Inisitue have similar diversity policies. It isn't something unique to Amazon and it isn't racist to give a boost to under represented groups.