1. #10381
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    It's pathetic to call me names because you were unable to understand sarcasm in a post that deserves none of those names. Says more for you than me.
    It would indeed be, which is why I didn't. Not sure what you read but it can't have been my post.

  2. #10382
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DingDongKing View Post
    What people need to realise is that digressing from the source material isn't the problem, not doing it properly is.
    You talk like this isn't the whole point of many people made here

    Like, its the crux of the problem, they didn't do anything properly with the changes. Maybe just the condescended timelines can be considered something proper, but even that is iffy

  3. #10383
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You talk like this isn't the whole point of many people made here

    Like, its the crux of the problem, they didn't do anything properly with the changes. Maybe just the condescended timelines can be considered something proper, but even that is iffy
    It's a real shame, then, that the loudest complaint is about the skin color of some actors.

    You know, when there's real, actual complaints to be made that aren't fucking racist.

    "But I'm not racist! I swear you guys! Just, these black actors are really pissing me off more than all the actual, genuine, objective problems with the show! But fuck them there black actors!"

  4. #10384
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Ok if you want to be wrong about it, you have the right to be so.
    Of course, everyone gets their own opinion and can disagree with others, that's the great thing about there not really being a canon.

    If he published it is, if he didn't its not.
    So you accept 4 unreliably narrated volumes and dismiss the other 14 plus letters. By your standards pretty much anything can happen in the Second Age without breaking canon.


    Again: not the case with what show in the show with the orc family and the orc baby, this doesn't show they are cowardly and wretched, and being cowardly is not their trait because they do go to war on a daily basis, on others or on each other. the scene was bad
    Have you even watched the scene, there is no baby in it.

    Its funny that you mentioned the boat sink scene, when the entire show is filled with crap like that, sure its generating a lot "great conversations" for great modern intellectuals, and outstanding performances like guyladriel hiding the horse
    What hiding the horse, is this another influencer meme I missed out on? I don't think it's really accurate to call Tolkien fans "modern intellectuals," just fantasy enjoyers of all ages.

  5. #10385
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    It's a real shame, then, that the loudest complaint is about the skin color of some actors.

    You know, when there's real, actual complaints to be made that aren't fucking racist.

    "But I'm not racist! I swear you guys! Just, these black actors are really pissing me off more than all the actual, genuine, objective problems with the show! But fuck them there black actors!"
    It's not racist to expect that characters look like they're supposed to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You talk like this isn't the whole point of many people made here

    Like, its the crux of the problem, they didn't do anything properly with the changes. Maybe just the condescended timelines can be considered something proper, but even that is iffy
    Yep. People love the Jackson trilogy but he made a shit ton of changes. Thing is, he did them well.

    My preference is for as few changes as possible. But if you're going to do them, at least make them consistent with the logic of the world, and don't make changes that are unnecessary.
    Last edited by DarkAmbient; 2024-10-14 at 02:05 PM.

  6. #10386
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    It's a real shame, then, that the loudest complaint is about the skin color of some actors.
    Thats not rly the loudest complain, its the one that get more traction because its the only thing mouthbreathers can use to defend the show while also attacking people who criticize

    "the show isn't bad you are just racist"

    You can throw 10 critics, but if you one of then is about the depiction not being accurate its a wall of bitching

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Of course, everyone gets their own opinion and can disagree with others, that's the great thing about there not really being a canon.



    So you accept 4 unreliably narrated volumes and dismiss the other 14 plus letters. By your standards pretty much anything can happen in the Second Age without breaking canon.
    no one is dismissing anything, there is canon and there is the legendarium/mythos, you just have a hard time to understand the concepts



    Have you even watched the scene, there is no baby in it.
    then wtf is this?
    https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-...200&fit=bounds
    What hiding the horse
    riding, i misspelled, but she could have done that too, who knows

  7. #10387
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    then wtf is this?
    [URL="https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/66d386fd65e0687e12bf364b/0x0.jpg?format=jpg&height=600&width=1200&fit=bounds"]https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/66d386fd65e0687e12bf364b/0x0.jpg?
    Ah yeah my bad, that image some chud clipped ages ago has been going around so long it's replaced my memory of the episode with what looks like Glug and a child.

  8. #10388
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    It would indeed be, which is why I didn't. Not sure what you read but it can't have been my post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    Usually Irony is marked in text, normal today is to write a /s for being sarcastic. I didn't understand being toxic, hateful and quite distasteful was an indication of irony.
    Oh, i suppose that wasn't you then. How could i have made such a big mistake? I apologize. /s
    /spit@Blizzard

  9. #10389
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    It's not racist to expect that characters look like they're supposed to.
    And how are they supposed to look?

    Please give the exact quote from Tolkien's work describing their skin color, please.

    (Also, yes, it is fucking racist. Doubly so when you become obsessed with it, screaming about it above and beyond everything else. And not even being able to admit that the actors you're bitching and moaning about are doing a great job with their role despite your "the worst travesty to ever befall LotR ever"ness.)

  10. #10390
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    Oh, i suppose that wasn't you then. How could i have made such a big mistake? I apologize. /s
    Well, atleast you've learned something so I take it as a win! But I'm still not sure why you're acting as if I called you names, I said my piece on the way you wrote your text but nothing about you.

    Why so hostile?

  11. #10391
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    It's not racist to expect that characters look like they're supposed to.
    It isn't racist if they are not what you expected. It is leaning toward bigotry by continuing to make it an issue though. The story doesn't change from the skin tones being different. Not Tolkien's work and not Amazon's. It could have been book accurate but it isn't. Peter Jackson changed characters around, like making Arwen have a larger role, and people got over it.

    As you say though the work was well received (ignoring the ton of hate it got at the time from die-hard tolkien fans) so those changes are not an issue. Which means it isn't the changes but looking for reasons talk about why the show is bad. People keep focusing on skin tone when skin tone has nothing to do with why the show isn't well received.

    Disa and Arondir having book-accurate skin tones wouldn't change anything about the show. Ignoring of course that a different actor would have a different performance. If for some reason the same actors were white would their characters be magically better? Would the writing of the show change? Would story issues change?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  12. #10392
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    And how are they supposed to look?

    Please give the exact quote from Tolkien's work describing their skin color, please.

    (Also, yes, it is fucking racist. Doubly so when you become obsessed with it, screaming about it above and beyond everything else. And not even being able to admit that the actors you're bitching and moaning about are doing a great job with their role despite your "the worst travesty to ever befall LotR ever"ness.)
    Tolkien describes elves as "tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin."[T 22] The Vanyar were called "The Fair" for their golden hair.[T 23][24] Maeglin is said to have been "tall and black-haired" and "his skin was white."[T 24] Túrin, a Man, was called Elf-man due to his appearance and speech, and described as "dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes."[T 25]

    Tolkien 1955, Appendix F
    Tolkien 1977, Index, "Vanyar"
    Tolkien 1977, ch. 16 "Of Maeglin"
    Tolkien 1977, ch. 21 "Of Túrin Turambar"

    Tolkien, J. R. R. (1955). The Return of the King. The Lord of the Rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. OCLC 519647821.
    Tolkien, J. R. R. (1977). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Silmarillion. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-25730-2.

    That's source material. NOTE: I do not care what color the actors are or race or sex or whatever. Doesn't bother me at all if they are good actors. I do love the Rings of Power. I want more seasons and episodes!!!!!!

  13. #10393
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't racist if they are not what you expected. It is leaning toward bigotry by continuing to make it an issue though. The story doesn't change from the skin tones being different. Not Tolkien's work and not Amazon's. It could have been book accurate but it isn't. Peter Jackson changed characters around, like making Arwen have a larger role, and people got over it.

    As you say though the work was well received (ignoring the ton of hate it got at the time from die-hard tolkien fans) so those changes are not an issue. Which means it isn't the changes but looking for reasons talk about why the show is bad. People keep focusing on skin tone when skin tone has nothing to do with why the show isn't well received.

    Disa and Arondir having book-accurate skin tones wouldn't change anything about the show. Ignoring of course that a different actor would have a different performance. If for some reason the same actors were white would their characters be magically better? Would the writing of the show change? Would story issues change?
    It's not bigotry to expect established characters to be depicted faithfully. It's an absurd suggestion.

    The problem is that the entire topic of faithful adaptations gets muddied by bad faith actors. On one side you've got people who talk about diverse casting in order to spread conservative propaganda. On the other side you've got people who behave like diverse casting is never an issue. Then you've got people who aren't politically invested and don't feel strongly about the topic either way. Finally you've got people like me who just have what is an admittedly borderline autistic aversion to change, and when we complain we get damned by association.

    Unfaithful adaptions can be great. Starship Troopers basically shit on the entire premise of the book and one main character got gender swapped, but was a fun film to watch regardless. Blade Runner became legendary for all the right reasons. More recently, The Green Knight was an amazing film that more people should see. It's just that when an adaptation is done badly, eg. Witcher or Rings of Power, some people latch on to miscast characters because they're easier to make memes and YouTube thumbnails out of.

  14. #10394
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    It's not bigotry to expect established characters to be depicted faithfully. It's an absurd suggestion.
    I never said it was. It is leaning towards bigotry to keep going on about it two years after season 1 came out (even longer if you count when it first became known). There is nothing to discuss about being faithful or not. Every adaptation of Lord of the Rings changed things. Peter Jackson changed characters. You aren't damned by association for saying you would prefer to be more book accurate.

    People are damned for continuing to harp on a minor issue. One that doesn't impact the adaptation being good or not. As the Peter Jackson work was good even though he drastically changed Arwen's role (including to add a "girl boss" to the movie). You even say people latch onto the skin tone because it is easier to make memes and rage bait about. Guess what those memes and rage bait involve? Racism.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2024-10-14 at 10:25 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  15. #10395
    I did acknowledge that there are bad faith actors out there using diverse casting for reasons other than simply objecting to inaccuracy. But I don't think repeating objections on the basis of inaccuracy constitutes bigotry at all. It might turn in to beating a dead horse, but that's about it.

  16. #10396
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    I did acknowledge that there are bad faith actors out there using diverse casting for reasons other than simply objecting to inaccuracy. But I don't think repeating objections on the basis of inaccuracy constitutes bigotry at all. It might turn in to beating a dead horse, but that's about it.
    It does lean towards bigotry. There is no reason to keep bringing it up. It is a change that happened. It is a change that doesn't impact the story either of Tolkien or Rings of Power. Why does it matter that skin tones don't match? The show is filled with inaccuracies which are bigger then and more impactful then skin tone yet people want to keep beating the dead horse of non-white people existing in the story.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #10397
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It does lean towards bigotry. There is no reason to keep bringing it up. It is a change that happened. It is a change that doesn't impact the story either of Tolkien or Rings of Power. Why does it matter that skin tones don't match? The show is filled with inaccuracies which are bigger then and more impactful then skin tone yet people want to keep beating the dead horse of non-white people existing in the story.
    It's of getting into the mindset of the creators and their creative intent, because it obviously mattered to said creatives as they had to change the skin tones... otherwise they wouldn't have changed that aspect in adapting.

    As you mentioned, if it supposedly doesn't change or impact the story (it does affect setting and lore aspects and immersion for this story, but leave that aside for now), then why did the creators feel like they had to make that change? If one wants to break out the bigotry card, it should be played against the ones who made the change, not the ones who noticed the change and questioned why said creators felt the color of one's skin matters more than faithfully adapting. If they could give a good answer with reasonable logic and make it work in the show, great!... but they haven't, nor is there any appreciable positive change in the show that indicates race swapping was a positive or even necessary/interesting. Instead, the show comes off like the creators are so insanely bigoted that they put their dogmatic ideals above everything else, and the show has suffered greatly from it.

    Personally, the race swapping/changing of some of the characters in isolation come off as pretty minor issues, but they are a symptom of a much bigger problem that taps into every other aspects of the show that has been an issue... the creators appear to be prioritizing the wrong things while dropping the ball on the things that matter, like the actual writing and story structure.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
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  18. #10398
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    It's of getting into the mindset of the creators and their creative intent, because it obviously mattered to said creatives as they had to change the skin tones... otherwise they wouldn't have changed that aspect in adapting.
    No. It doesn't say anything about their mindset other then they wanted to be inclusive. It does not impact the setting and lore aspects for Rings of Power or Tolkien's work. The color of skin doesn't matter for anything in his setting or lore. If he made his characters more diverse nothing changes at all.

    It is not bigotry to include people of different skin tones. It is hilarious that you can make an argument like that and expect to be taken seriously. You haven't even given a logical reason for why the show needs to be whites only. It already isn't a faithful adaptation. Neither was Jackson's work. No adaptation is 100% faithful because you can't adapt a long book series into a TV show or Movie without changes for the medium.

    The writing and structure of the show would be the same if they had an all white cast. This shows that it is all about racism and the thin veil that you and others use to try and hide it. This isn't something like The Whiz or Romeo + Juliet (1996) where the adaptation is drastically impacted by the changes. The Whiz intentionally changes the story to a modern African American lens. R+J does the same with guns and "pop culture" of the time. The inclusion of skin tone in Rings of Power changes nothing about the story told.

    It just exists and you have a problem with it existing. That is bigotry.
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  19. #10399
    Herald of the Titans rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    It's of getting into the mindset of the creators and their creative intent, because it obviously mattered to said creatives as they had to change the skin tones... otherwise they wouldn't have changed that aspect in adapting.

    As you mentioned, if it supposedly doesn't change or impact the story (it does affect setting and lore aspects and immersion for this story, but leave that aside for now), then why did the creators feel like they had to make that change? If one wants to break out the bigotry card, it should be played against the ones who made the change, not the ones who noticed the change and questioned why said creators felt the color of one's skin matters more than faithfully adapting. If they could give a good answer with reasonable logic and make it work in the show, great!... but they haven't, nor is there any appreciable positive change in the show that indicates race swapping was a positive or even necessary/interesting. Instead, the show comes off like the creators are so insanely bigoted that they put their dogmatic ideals above everything else, and the show has suffered greatly from it.

    Personally, the race swapping/changing of some of the characters in isolation come off as pretty minor issues, but they are a symptom of a much bigger problem that taps into every other aspects of the show that has been an issue... the creators appear to be prioritizing the wrong things while dropping the ball on the things that matter, like the actual writing and story structure.
    I already explained this in previous posts, it was also explained before s1 even began airing, it's because Amazon has a hiring mandate in place that states there must be a minimum number of castings/hirings that are 'diverse', meaning that any project under the Amazon Prime video umbrella is subject to the racist hiring mandate that will select a candidate based on 'minority representation characteristics' over a candidate that is caucasian.

    all this info is freely available on their website and has been documented in this thread, the reason it's not called out at all is because it's 'positive racism', but I suppose that's the current state of the US right now where racism against anybody who is white isn't classed as racism.

  20. #10400
    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    Tolkien describes elves as "tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin."[T 22] The Vanyar were called "The Fair" for their golden hair.[T 23][24] Maeglin is said to have been "tall and black-haired" and "his skin was white."[T 24] Túrin, a Man, was called Elf-man due to his appearance and speech, and described as "dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes."[T 25]

    Tolkien 1955, Appendix F
    Tolkien 1977, Index, "Vanyar"
    Tolkien 1977, ch. 16 "Of Maeglin"
    Tolkien 1977, ch. 21 "Of Túrin Turambar"

    Tolkien, J. R. R. (1955). The Return of the King. The Lord of the Rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. OCLC 519647821.
    Tolkien, J. R. R. (1977). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Silmarillion. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-25730-2.

    That's source material. NOTE: I do not care what color the actors are or race or sex or whatever. Doesn't bother me at all if they are good actors. I do love the Rings of Power. I want more seasons and episodes!!!!!!
    I know you don't care for truth, but old English (which is Tolkiens absolute favorite!) usually use "Fair" as beautiful. It can also be used to describe "bright", but doesn't need to be the skin tone but rather that elves have an ethereal glow, beautiful skin and are youthful. That fits his other descriptions of elves. When he ever described skin color as "white" he used the word pale, not fair.

    Your only "Source" for elves skin color is vastly debatable. Also, have in mind that Tolkien didn't describe some things in detail because he wanted people to drift away in their own mind and filling the blanks.

    Some harfoots are supposed to be quite darker in skin tone. Sam is one of them. But I'm guessing you loved the actor that played Sam? Because he did a splendid job even if his skin wasn't the right tone.

    Not sure how this is an issue 2024, it's quite sad and pathetic actually.

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