Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Dhrizzle]

I already explained this in previous posts, it was also explained before s1 even began airing, it's because Amazon has a hiring mandate in place that states there must be a minimum number of castings/hirings that are 'diverse', meaning that any project under the Amazon Prime video umbrella is subject to the racist hiring mandate that will select a candidate based on 'minority representation characteristics' over a candidate that is caucasian.

all this info is freely available on their website and has been documented in this thread, the reason it's not called out at all is because it's 'positive racism', but I suppose that's the current state of the US right now where racism against anybody who is white isn't classed as racism.

That is not correct. There is a guideline that says productions should try to ensure a certain number of behind-the-camera crew fit certain minority statuses but this doesn't come at the expense of skill, is not necessarily rigorously enforced and doesn't apply to the casting.

The simple fact people like to ignore is that the actors were hired due to their acting ability, as evinced by the praise piled on Sophia Nomvete and Ismael Cordova. What you're actually advocating for is that these actors and others should have been passed over for less capable people based on their skin colour alone.

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I know you don't care for truth, but old English (which is Tolkiens absolute favorite!) usually use "Fair" as beautiful. It can also be used to describe "bright", but doesn't need to be the skin tone but rather that elves have an ethereal glow, beautiful skin and are youthful. That fits his other descriptions of elves. When he ever described skin color as "white" he used the word pale, not fair.

Your only "Source" for elves skin color is vastly debatable. Also, have in mind that Tolkien didn't describe some things in detail because he wanted people to drift away in their own mind and filling the blanks.

Some harfoots are supposed to be quite darker in skin tone. Sam is one of them. But I'm guessing you loved the actor that played Sam? Because he did a splendid job even if his skin wasn't the right tone.

Not sure how this is an issue 2024, it's quite sad and pathetic actually.

Also Aragorn, Faramir and Boromir should all have been beardless and the Orcs should have been more like Hobbit size without the weird tumour-faces. It's funny how people are quite happy to accept changes for "modern audience" expectations unless there's a chance for them to whine about skin colour.

[rogoth]

That is not correct. There is a guideline that says productions should try to ensure a certain number of behind-the-camera crew fit certain minority statuses but this doesn't come at the expense of skill, is not necessarily rigorously enforced and doesn't apply to the casting.

The simple fact people like to ignore is that the actors were hired due to their acting ability, as evinced by the praise piled on Sophia Nomvete and Ismael Cordova. What you're actually advocating for is that these actors and others should have been passed over for less capable people based on their skin colour alone.

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Also Aragorn, Faramir and Boromir should all have been beardless and the Orcs should have been more like Hobbit size without the weird tumour-faces. It's funny how people are quite happy to accept changes for "modern audience" expectations unless there's a chance for them to whine about skin colour.

it's not a 'guideline' it's a mandate, furthermore, it encompasses ALL aspects of production, and trying to spin it like it's only behind-the-scenes staff are hired based on this mandate is both extremely disingenuous and also entirely misleading.

at the time it was uncovered this mandate existed and was later made publically visible, there were a number of insiders who leaked that management would stringently enforce the policy and even go above and beyond the minimums when they felt it would benefit them, feel free to go back and read all about it, it's pretty damning really.

until this show, nobody had heard of Sophia Nomvete or Ismail cruz Cordova, so I'm not really sure where you're getting this 'acting ability' from, because unless they released the casting tapes for public viewing (never gonna happen), we would never know if they were the best candidates for the roles, or if they were just a part of the mandated hiring quota.

as stated MANY times, nobody really has an issue with these actors themselves, it's the characters they are playing that are the issue, yet you and the others here who can't differentiate between these aspects are still trying to make it about something it very much isn't, it's actually comical at this point just how far out of your way you go to perform the mental gymnastics needed to use the 'you're a racist' jab, it's pathetic really.

as to your other asinine comment, orcs are always described as being deformed and sickly looking, meaning that the 'tumour-faces' make perfect sense based on the myriad descriptions of them, so no clue why that's an issue for you, or is it simply that you detest people who look disfigured and don't want to see it on screen?

Aragorn is a long descendant of Numenor, as stated in a previous response he should appear more Balkan in appearance than he does, same with many of the southern Gondorians, but I guess you only want them to hire people who adhere to your notion of what they should look like right?

[rhorle]

I already explained this in previous posts, it was also explained before s1 even began airing, it's because Amazon has a hiring mandate in place that states there must be a minimum number of castings/hirings that are 'diverse', meaning that any project under the Amazon Prime video umbrella is subject to the racist hiring mandate that will select a candidate based on 'minority representation characteristics' over a candidate that is caucasian.

Both the Academy/Oscars and the British Film Inisitue have similar diversity policies. It isn't something unique to Amazon and it isn't racist to give a boost to under represented groups.

[Mace]

Well, for such a rubbish show, why does this one have 521 pages of replies?

I can't stand the man Galadariel, that looks like a female, but feels like it's a bro - it's so weird.. can't stand the character, the man-she.

And that's not a criticism of the actor, but the character.

[Dhrizzle]

as to your other asinine comment, orcs are always described as being deformed and sickly looking, meaning that the 'tumour-faces' make perfect sense based on the myriad descriptions of them, so no clue why that's an issue for you, or is it simply that you detest people who look disfigured and don't want to see it on screen?

My goodness you're truly desperate to paint others as dreadful as yourself aren't you, trying to pretend that criticism of makeup and prosthetics is in any way the same as your outrage at seeing dark-skinned people on screen?

[Mace]

Both the Academy/Oscars and the British Film Inisitue have similar diversity policies. It isn't something unique to Amazon and it isn't racist to give a boost to under represented groups.

No, it isn't racist, but the racists will use it, pointing out that it's such a massive problem, while failing to mention the real problem Hollywood have , in meeting a diversity mandate you could inevitably fail to hire the best people for the job, because it will never fal lin a perfect rainbow spread.

In some places the best of the people will be black, in other places they'd be gay, in other places they'd be part of the majority of that region, in order to stick to a hiring mandate may sometimes mean hiring an unqualified (white, black, gay, male, female or otherwise) person just to make a quota. And worse if over representation is okay for any group but one. This is hypocritical off course.

Not to mention it's worse if you then start insisting all your programming and stories you write follow this mandate, which means you can never have stories that are unique to a specific ethnicity, orientation or even gender only those that have everything, which will greatly undermine certain stories in very specific time periods, locations or activities.

It's ludicrous to enforce something like that, then try to boast about it by virtue smacks of pretentiousness and cirtue signalling which when done by these people makes them all sound very hypocritical.

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That is not correct. There is a guideline that says productions should try to ensure a certain number of behind-the-camera crew fit certain minority statuses but this doesn't come at the expense of skill, is not necessarily rigorously enforced and doesn't apply to the casting.

Sadly we know, that there are many places where "guidelines" are viewed and treated and enforced as laws. Actually being mandated.
I can only presume that the company policy would state guideline because it is illegal to mandate this, but we know full well a company can force its employees to follow the guideline rigorously, in which case it is for all applicable intents and purposes, effectively mandated.

[rhorle]

In some places the best of the people will be black, in other places they'd be gay, in other places they'd be part of the majority of that region, in order to stick to a hiring mandate may sometimes mean hiring an unqualified (white, black, gay, male, female or otherwise) person just to make a quota. And worse if over representation is okay for any group but one. This is hypocritical off course.

And yet the "qouta not skilled" actors Amazon hired for Rings of Power are praised as the best performances of the show. You are just making excuses for your hate. The mandate at Amazon does not make it impossible to tell a story of a specific ethnicity, orientation, or gender. You are fear mongering.

https://press.aboutamazon.com/2021/6...representation

Casting actors whose identity (gender, gender identity, nationality, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability) aligns with the character they will be playing.

Aiming to include one character from each of the following categories in speaking roles, with minimum 50% of these to be women: LGBTQIA+, person with a disability, and three regionally underrepresented race/ethnic/cultural groups. A single character can fulfill one or more of these identities.

[Mace]

And yet the "qouta not skilled" actors Amazon hired for Rings of Power are praised as the best performances of the show. You are just making excuses for your hate. The mandate at Amazon does not make it impossible to tell a story of a specific ethnicity, orientation, or gender. You are fear mongering.

https://press.aboutamazon.com/2021/6...representation

Casting actors whose identity (gender, gender identity, nationality, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability) aligns with the character they will be playing.

Aiming to include one character from each of the following categories in speaking roles, with minimum 50% of these to be women: LGBTQIA+, person with a disability, and three regionally underrepresented race/ethnic/cultural groups. A single character can fulfill one or more of these identities.

You're implying I hate. You don't know me.

As a black, gay, male, hint of jewish too, I tick many boxes on the diversity spectrum. But if I were a white, trans, wicker person would that make a difference?

No, but in your mind, I'm a hater, and you probably imagine me as a neck beard, heavy set, incel white male, that hates all things diverse the moment I criticise anything the cult holds sacred, even when it's clearly rubbish or out of control - nope, I must be a hater - must be one of those far right people I guess, cos I don't agree to everything put out there.

These people are all phoney, their new rules, seem like hot air, I don't believe they care about any minority or group, I believe they are virtue signalling, and I think they also don't really care about making good entertainment or telling good stories, only about appearing to be virtuous to hide how truly twisted and evil they are.

That is such a nonsense rule to make.

[rhorle]

You're implying I hate. You don't know me.

I don't have to know you to know what the words you use state. It doesn't matter what boxes you personally tick because bigots come in all shapes and sizes. The notion that because you tick a box of diversity you can't be a bigot is silly. The fact you right away accuse others of thinking you are neckbeard and your accusers belong to a cult indicates you are hating.

Rings of Power is not rubbish or out of control because it has black actors. That is a simple fact. It would be the same if the cast was all white. You, and others, making it about diversity only shows bigotry.

[rogoth]

Both the Academy/Oscars and the British Film Inisitue have similar diversity policies. It isn't something unique to Amazon and it isn't racist to give a boost to under represented groups.

can you please, pray tell, what does that have to do with the price of cheese?

last time I checked none of those bodies were in charge of making this show, nor do they have any stake in Amazon as a company, furthermore, can you provide links to the policies you're claiming for specifically the British Film Institue, because if you can actually show proof of that policy, then that is Illegal under British law and would risk them being heavily fined as well as potential licensing injunctions, so please highlight the same racist hiring policies because hiring someone based on their skin colour, regardless of what it is, is Illegal here, end of story.

as for the utterly racist argument you're making, 'it's only racist if it's against minority groups, you can't be racist to white people', that's basically your argument here.

as an aside, can you answer this question for me, in a recent version of 'Love Island' based in South Africa, the cast was entirely white people, because as a representation of the population, they are a DISTINCT minority, should they have chosen some black South Africans to make sure the show would appeal to the international audience? Or would that be considered repressing a minority group?

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Well, for such a rubbish show, why does this one have 521 pages of replies?

I can't stand the man Galadariel, that looks like a female, but feels like it's a bro - it's so weird.. can't stand the character, the man-she.

And that's not a criticism of the actor, but the character.

because rhorle/adamas/dhrizzle et al will keep defending this show as the best thing on tv and the best thing since sliced bread, so as soon as anybody comes along and rightly criticises this show for any reason whatsoever they bolt out frothing at the mouth with the usual ist/ism/phobe name calling and the stereotypical berating people who have a negative opinion until they either submit to their way of seeing things or until those people leave and never return, because nothing screams 'inclusive' like excluding people who have a dissenting perspective on something that is provably horrific to the source material they have access to.

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My goodness you're truly desperate to paint others as dreadful as yourself aren't you, trying to pretend that criticism of makeup and prosthetics is in any way the same as your outrage at seeing dark-skinned people on screen?

as I have said many times, in fact so many times i have lost count, I couldn't care less about what colour someone is, in the context provided however the CHARACTERS you're harping on about are the issue, not the people behind them, and as has been well established, you can't be racist to fictional characters, not just that but there's plenty of reasons as to why they shouldn't exist in this show, you're just being purposefully obtuse to the legitimate criticisms because it doesn't fit your narrative.

and you haven't addressed why you hate deformed orcs so much, all you have done is provide a personal anecdote that you think the 'tumour-faced' orcs don't fit in the world of Middle Earth in past versions of media, yet you can't or won't elaborate on why you think that I merely suggested you have a disgust of seeing deformed people on screen, and so far your response has done nothing to deny that suggestion, instead you try to make a pisspoor attempt at a personal attack on me thinking it makes you look good, and you try to assume some faux moral high ground that simply doesn't exist, standard tactics from your cult lessons I assume?

I also love how you and rhorle especially along with others make wild claims as to a person's character based on your own prejudices and those claims/name-calling have NO basis in fact, yet you keep repeating them as if they are, in the legal world that's called defamation.

[rhorle]

last time I checked none of those bodies were in charge of making this show, nor do they have any stake in Amazon as a company, furthermore, can you provide links to the policies you're claiming for specifically the British Film Institue, because if you can actually show proof of that policy, then that is Illegal under British law and would risk them being heavily fined as well as potential licensing injunctions, so please highlight the same racist hiring policies because hiring someone based on their skin colour, regardless of what it is, is Illegal here, end of story.

If a production wants to be considered for best picture in the Academy (Oscars) then they need to follow the policy. Prior to that recent change all productions that were members of the group or wanted to be considered for awards had to follow the rule. Amazon most certainly wants Rings of Power to be considered for Oscars. Jeff Bezos, prior to his retirement, stated that Golden Globe wins sell shoes. You are only saying it has nothing to do with the price of cheese because it is devastating to your narrative about Amazon. It is a common policy across the industry and not an Amazon specific thing.

A simple search turns up the information about the BFI, https://www.bfi.org.uk/jobs-opportun...clusion-policy, and it is not against UK law. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is illegal. A brief glance of the ACAS UK website also indicates that polices with a legitimate aim are legally allowed to discriminate. Which means policies to offer opportunities to historically under represented groups is not illegal.

I have never said that people can't be racist towards white people. Don't lie. Bigotry can be used by anyone which is something I've said multiple times. Programs designed to give opportunities to minorities are not racist towards the majority ethnicity. Equality and Equity are not racism.

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because rhorle/adamas/dhrizzle et al will keep defending this show as the best thing on tv and the best thing since sliced bread

Except I haven't. At no point have I said this show is exceptional or the best one ever. Why do you feel the need to lie so much? People are not called bigots for having a negative opinion. They are called bigots for making bigoted statements.

Again, what would an all-white cast improve about Rings of Power? Why would the show be automatically better? It still wouldn't be a faithful adaptation. The story wouldn't need to change. You keep making a big deal about the skin tone of actors when it isn't what is causing the show to have issues. That is bigotry.

[rogoth]

If a production wants to be considered for best picture in the Academy (Oscars) then they need to follow the policy. Prior to that recent change all productions that were members of the group or wanted to be considered for awards had to follow the rule. Amazon most certainly wants Rings of Power to be considered for Oscars. Jeff Bezos, prior to his retirement, stated that Golden Globe wins sell shoes. You are only saying it has nothing to do with the price of cheese because it is devastating to your narrative about Amazon. It is a common policy across the industry and not an Amazon specific thing.

A simple search turns up the information about the BFI, https://www.bfi.org.uk/jobs-opportun...clusion-policy, and it is not against UK law. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is illegal. A brief glance of the ACAS UK website also indicates that polices with a legitimate aim are legally allowed to discriminate. Which means policies to offer opportunities to historically under represented groups is not illegal.

I have never said that people can't be racist towards white people. Don't lie. Bigotry can be used by anyone which is something I've said multiple times. Programs designed to give opportunities to minorities are not racist towards the majority ethnicity. Equality and Equity are not racism.

let me stop you right there because clearly your American brain doesn't understand the vast difference here, so the link you provide for the BFI, shows that the only things they will enforce in regard to inclusion practices are that they will do what is legally mandated anyway, there's no portion of their statement that mandates a certain percentage of a project MUST BE from a minority background, there's no policy in place that states that a project MUST MANDATE a certain percentage of cast and crew be of 'minority backgrounds', because to do any of that is illegal under UK labour law, meaning that if they moronically made a hiring policy similar to that used by Amazon, it would be in direct conflict with what the law mandates.

secondly, you confusing 'the industry' (see Hollywood) with global entertainment outside of the US and you come to the conclusion that everyone is the same as US-based media companies, it's laughable really, I also shouldn't have asked a question in a roundabout way because it's clear you didn't understand what was meant from the said question, because your response here is - 'well other people do the same stupid shit, so, therefore, Amazon isn't a bad guy', that's what I'm getting from your response, you're genuinely and unironically trying to paint the picture that because your nation does this sort of thing en masse that it excuses the behaviour in its entirety, am I understanding that right?

I have never said that people can't be racist towards white people.

you may not have used those exact words, but you have insinuated that is the case on dozens if not hundreds of occasions in this thread alone over time, and that speaks volumes considering you are trying to lambast people on the flip side.

an all-white cast

nobody is asking for that, what's being asked for in this specific show, in the specific context of the near century of world-building that has been laid out, is that characters adhere to said world-building and known character aesthetics, NOT having token characters of 'modern day' bullshit tokenism purely there to act as a shield for legitimate criticism, to act as a piece on a chess board that can be played to appeal to minority groups thinking that LOTR and middle earth didn't already do that, the acting portion and all that is encompassed there is of secondary concern.

but again it's pointless arguing with you about this because you conveniently ignore this, it's much easier to paint someone who disagrees with the fundamental changing of the fictional world Tolkien created to suit 'modern day' mentalities as a racist/bigot/whatever other ist/ism/phobe can be inserted here, and that's all you, and the other named and unnamed cultists have done.

[rhorle]

you may not have used those exact words, but you have insinuated that is the case on dozens if not hundreds of occasions in this thread alone over time, and that speaks volumes considering you are trying to lambast people on the flip side.

No. I have never said this show is exceptional and have talked about things I have problems with. Your hate blinds you and you can't accept that you are lying. You think that there are only two options. Hate the show or think it is exceptional. That isn't the case.

Amazon is not a bad guy for having a policy that helps minority groups that were historically oppressed. Equity and Inclusive polices are not bad. It has nothing to do with what country I am from. Stop trying to nation bash. Aspirational diversity targets and Positive Action are not illegal under UK law so you might want to educate yourself on your own country before bashing others. https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-the-workplace

[micwini]

No. I have never said this show is exceptional and have talked about things I have problems with. Your hate blinds you and you can't accept that you are lying. You think that there are only two options. Hate the show or think it is exceptional. That isn't the case.

Amazon is not a bad guy for having a policy that helps minority groups that were historically oppressed. Equity and Inclusive polices are not bad. It has nothing to do with what country I am from. Stop trying to nation bash. Aspirational diversity targets and Positive Action are not illegal under UK law so you might want to educate yourself on your own country before bashing others. https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-the-workplace

You are saying Inclusive policies are not bad. Quote from your link:
"For example, hiring one candidate over another equally qualified one because the former has a certain protected characteristic that is underrepresented in the workforce."

So in other words: If 2 equally qualified persons apply (1 white, 1 black), you should hire the black person based on their skin color.
That is factually racist by definition.

So in other words, you are saying that racism against white people 'is not bad'. Something you claimed earlier you never said.
Who's lying here? I've been following the discussion for a while and you keep contradicting yourself every subsequent post.

[rogoth]

No. I have never said this show is exceptional and have talked about things I have problems with. Your hate blinds you and you can't accept that you are lying. You think that there are only two options. Hate the show or think it is exceptional. That isn't the case.

Amazon is not a bad guy for having a policy that helps minority groups that were historically oppressed. Equity and Inclusive polices are not bad. It has nothing to do with what country I am from. Stop trying to nation bash. Aspirational diversity targets and Positive Action are not illegal under UK law so you might want to educate yourself on your own country before bashing others. https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-the-workplace

no, I do not, your own prejudice blinds you to the fact that I have never said anything supporting that claim whatsoever, in fact I stated quite clearly here, as well as in other forums and online spaces I post in, that I couldn't care less if people like this show, I'm not the fun police, the point at which Itake exception is when people are defending this absolute destruction of the source material as a good show and when people will make any form of tangential argument as to why anyone who dislikes ANY PART of this show is somehow a racist/bigot/transphobe/hater etc etc ad nauseum.

no, they are not, however, hiring someone for any job based on the protected characteristics over another candidate for the same role, is VERY MUCH ILLEGAL and is not only abhorrent but entirely racist in the context provided here, which is why NOWHERE is there such a policy in the UK from media companies, unlike with Amazon who MANDATES that projects MUST HIRE people based on protected characteristics, it's literally there in black and white on their website, I'm not nation bashing, I'm stating facts based on available information, you might wanna pull your head out of your ass long enough to smell the fresh air because you're deluded if you think that the racist hiring mandate policy of Amazon and other US media companies is the same as what you are trying to show with the BFI.

as someone who has worked in a field that deals with this kind of thing, I'm very familiar with what is legal and what isn't and trust me, you are so far off the mark it's not even funny, you claiming Amazon aren't bad guys for having such a racist mandate policy are levels of irony beyond what I thought possible for you considering you were lambasting someone as worse not a few posts ago.

[rhorle]

So in other words, you are saying that racism against white people 'is not bad'. Something you claimed earlier you never said. Who's lying here? I've been following the discussion for a while and you keep contradicting yourself every subsequent post.

You are the one who is lying. I never said it is okay to be racist towards anyone. I have not contradicted myself at all.

[micwini]

You are the one who is lying. I never said it is okay to be racist towards anyone. I have not contradicted myself at all.

You said inclusivity policies are not bad. The link you posted contained an inclusivity policy that is racist against white people.
Therefore, you have said that racism against white people is not bad.

[Shadowferal]

"Humans? Humans are weak..."
Call it what you will..but after seeing how Numenor fell from within and without, Elrond's bitter comment wasn't devoid of reason.

[rhorle]

You said inclusivity policies are not bad. The link you posted contained an inclusivity policy that is racist against white people.
Therefore, you have said that racism against white people is not bad.

No, I have not said that. Are you able to understand how a scale is balanced?

[rogoth]

"Humans? Humans are weak..."
Call it what you will..but after seeing how Numenor fell from within and without, Elrond's bitter comment wasn't devoid of reason.

it's almost like he was there, he was there 3000 years ago.