Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Mace]

Yes, I saw someone else replied. It's straight from Tolkien. Her names were Nerwen and Artanis given to her by her mother and father. Nerwen means Man-Maiden och Altáriel means "Noble Maiden" pretty much.

When the light of the two trees of Valinor attaches it self to her hair she's called Altariel, which turns into Galadriel when she change her name from Quenya to Sindar. Alta/Galad is radiant, Riel is hair or gown.

Tolkien also described Galadriel as Amazonian. A women of power, strength and courage. A great fighter.

Rings of Power is actually using this character well within how Tolkien described her... Except for the unnecessary snarkiness and that she seems to be everywhere except for where she actually was. Her teeny and snarky behaviour is way toned down in Season 2, she's a much more lovable character.

First 3 episodes of the second season are without a doubt the weakest, but they're actually still quite good. But as soon as Annatar and Celebrimor get their fuzzy friendship going it's fantastic. Celebrimbor is not in any way what I had envisioned when I think of that character, but Charles performance makes this odd miscast justice many times over.

Second season feels like what first and second should have been all along... Not sure why they decided to give the show and world a 1 season long backstory as they did, when they easily could have done that and still kept the lore more in tact.

The snarkiness was one of the most annoying aspects of her character - and made her come across as an ultra feminist man hating type with the irony of behaving like a man - even though the character in itself, does not particularly hate men, yet it comes across that way - like she's written like an ultra fem or by a man who doesn't understand how to write a woman.

I am a bit more inclined to give the 2nd season a go, though I'm disappointed to hear i have to suffer 3 episodes before seeing any real improvement. Does she still dress and move like a man in this season? Is there more of the LotR/Hobbit movies type of Galadriel or do the two characters still seem completely disconnected?

[SilverLion]

So, just making sure I understand the premise here: The only acceptable way for people of color to be portrayed in lets say "established" fantasy settings is if there were already people of color written into those settings.

If there aren't any, there shouldn't be any cast and it would be better if a new setting or piece of media was created instead of adding them to an existing one.

Do I have this right?

[micwini]

You are lying. If I said what you are claiming that you wouldn't need a link to interpret what I said. The reddit comments I linked to do not contain any information about American history so it is again clear you are lying. Europeans are the primary immigrants to early America and through out much of the early history of the country. Those immigrants are the ones that subjagated Native Americans. If you will deny that simple fact it calls into question everything else you claim is a lie.

It is a straw man to bring up American education because my nation of origin has no bearing anything being discussed. You brought it up as a way to insult me. I have never said people are bigots for not liking Rings of Power. Again you lie and create a strawman. People are bigots for making bigoted statements in regards to skin color. That is a simple fact.

Just because multiple people support bigotry as long as it is used to be critical of the show doesn't mean you, or they, are right. I'm sure you know this because it is why you are so focused on making me out to be a racist so you can dismiss anything I say rather then put forth an actual argument. Even when you could have engaged with diversity in the time period Lord of the Rings is based on you dismissed it and brought up American's being racist. Strange, right?

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It does make sense and is coherent world building if you assume it has always existed and is something that can exist. There doesn't need to be an in-depth explanation. In the world of the adaptation it is just something that is. It doesn't have to be politics and quotas if they are the best actor for the character created. That is a division you are making because it can only be book-faithful or qouta/racist-against-white-people in your mind. Has there ever been a report of an actor for those roles being turned away because of the color of their skin? If it happened it would have likely come out like it did with Peter Jackson's film and the casting of an extra.


Even Tolkien ignored his own world building which makes your argument more of a dog whistle then you might realize. As Gondor should have had a mix of Rhun and Harad/Far-Harad skin tones but has been primarily been depicted as not having those. Their borders have been fluid over the years and both have invaded each other as well. Looking at how skin tones are distributed in the real world it isn't a hard line but gradual changes based on location to each other.

Plus, men first awoke in Rhun which Tolkien depicted as having an olive skin tone. Which would mean we should see more of a variety in tones if it follow similar real world changes as populations moved out of Africa.

You posted the link yourself. It was a policy that is racist against whites. You claimed such policies are 'not bad'. Thus: you are racist against whites.
It's really not complicated and you show your true colors with every subsequent post.

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So, just making sure I understand the premise here: The only acceptable way for people of color to be portrayed in lets say "established" fantasy settings is if there were already people of color written into those settings.

If there aren't any, there shouldn't be any cast and it would be better if a new setting or piece of media was created instead of adding them to an existing one.

Do I have this right?

Any "established" franchise really. Adding people for the sake of 'adding people with X skin color" is just plain racist. If new additions don't make sense with the setting, it is a problem.

[Rocksteady 87]

You posted the link yourself. It was a policy that is racist against whites. You claimed such policies are 'not bad'. Thus: you are racist against whites.
It's really not complicated and you show your true colors with every subsequent post.

Pretty much the absolute #1 racist comment a racist can make right here. "But I'm not racist you guys, I SWEAR!"

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Tolkien describes elves as "tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin."[T 22] The Vanyar were called "The Fair" for their golden hair.[T 23][24] Maeglin is said to have been "tall and black-haired" and "his skin was white."[T 24] Túrin, a Man, was called Elf-man due to his appearance and speech, and described as "dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes."[T 25]

Tolkien 1955, Appendix F
Tolkien 1977, Index, "Vanyar"
Tolkien 1977, ch. 16 "Of Maeglin"
Tolkien 1977, ch. 21 "Of Túrin Turambar"

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1955). The Return of the King. The Lord of the Rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. OCLC 519647821.
Tolkien, J. R. R. (1977). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Silmarillion. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-25730-2.

That's source material. NOTE: I do not care what color the actors are or race or sex or whatever. Doesn't bother me at all if they are good actors. I do love the Rings of Power. I want more seasons and episodes!!!!!!

I don't see anything about dwarves there. You know, since they're the ones getting the most bitching about here, and whom I was talking about.

[rhorle]

You posted the link yourself. It was a policy that is racist against whites. You claimed such policies are 'not bad'. Thus: you are racist against whites. It's really not complicated and you show your true colors with every subsequent post.

Again, that is a claim you are making based on what your interpretation is. It is not something I said and the only one showing your true colors is yourself.

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Any "established" franchise really. Adding people for the sake of 'adding people with X skin color" is just plain racist. If new additions don't make sense with the setting, it is a problem.

What about the setting of Rings of Power does not make sense because it included black dwarves and elves? Skin color has never been an important part of Tolkiens story. He even ignores his own world building with different skin tones as well. It might have been something he would have changed in revisions just like he changed the world from flat to round.

[Triceron]

So, just making sure I understand the premise here: The only acceptable way for people of color to be portrayed in lets say "established" fantasy settings is if there were already people of color written into those settings.

If there aren't any, there shouldn't be any cast and it would be better if a new setting or piece of media was created instead of adding them to an existing one.

Do I have this right?

I would consider it to be the realm of 'inauthentic diversity'. I don't particularly like the term 'forced diversity', since nothing is ever forced. Inauthentic diversity is a better description of what is generally happening in modern media. It's when the point has become beyond a genuine interest in representing the population, where such choices may not feel authentic to the fictional setting.

No one bats an eye when we see darker skinned actors play in the role of the Harad in LOTR. No one really fusses that the to-scale stand-in actor for the Frodo is Indian. It's not a race or skintone issue. What we're talking about is generally a world building issue. If the setting makes room for such liberal adaptations, then it should also have room to explain its own creative choices for it. And it could be as simple as having a location be changed from a small isolated town to a small port that engages in trade and all walks of life. Or showing a group of individuals that are a part of a different culture who have been integrated into the city, as a part of being a diverse melting pot.

As long as it makes sense in the setting, I have no problems with any level of diversity being portrayed. And I'll point to One Piece Live Action as doing it right, as well as Castlevania S2 introducing new prominent black characters who actually fit the setting.

[SilverLion]

I would consider it to be the realm of 'inauthentic diversity'. I don't particularly like the term 'forced diversity', since nothing is ever forced. Inauthentic diversity is a better description of what is generally happening in modern media. It's when the point has become beyond a genuine interest in representing the population, where such choices may not feel authentic to the fictional setting.

No one bats an eye when we see darker skinned actors play in the role of the Harad in LOTR. No one really fusses that the to-scale stand-in actor for the Frodo is Indian. It's not a race or skintone issue. What we're talking about is generally a world building issue. If the setting makes room for such liberal adaptations, then it should also have room to explain its own creative choices for it. And it could be as simple as having a location be changed from a small isolated town to a small port that engages in trade and all walks of life. Or showing a group of individuals that are a part of a different culture who have been integrated into the city, as a part of being a diverse melting pot.

This pretty much confirms my suspicion. There's a massive misunderstanding about racism, bigotry, and diversity in this thread. The truth is people have used the idea of "inauthentic diversity" for decades. It's not modern. Not even a little bit. The black woman who's name I'm forgetting in Star Trek was quite frankly, exactly that.

I'm not going to get into a debate about it here, because it's beyond the scope of the thread, but there are some really good sociology books out there about racism, power and how the people making the rules are the ones who define what counts as "forces diversity". Casting PoC actors doesn't do shit against worldbuilding unless your worldbuilding is bad, or there's a specific in universe reason. There isn't, for Lord of the Rings. People watch media to see characters like them, this isn't new. So it doesn't really matter the how's or why's.

[Triceron]

Casting PoC actors doesn't do shit against worldbuilding unless your worldbuilding is bad, or there's a specific in universe reason. There isn't, for Lord of the Rings. People watch media to see characters like them, this isn't new. So it doesn't really matter the how's or why's.

I don't think this is like Star Trek at all, because Star Trek was its own IP without decades worth of visual adaptations setting expectations. People being upset over there being a black woman on the show has nothing to do with it not fitting the setting. There is ample explanation for why there is a black woman on the crew, and this is all informed by the setting of the future and in the history of the Federation. It's ingrained in the world building.

There isn't, for Lord of the Rings. People watch media to see characters like them, this isn't new. So it doesn't really matter the how's or why's.

I honestly don't think self-insertion into fantasy has much to do with it.

Anecdotally speaking, I have no interest in seeing people of Asian descent appear in a setting like Middle Earth, barring where it might make sense like the unexplored far eastern realms of Rhun. And sex and skin tone doesn't really get in the way of embracing a character that appeals to our sensabilities. I can get into playing as a character like Lara Croft when I play Tomb Raider. I don't have to be a CIS white female to enjoy the immersive experience, and the character doesn't have to be Chinese for me to enjoy it either. We all suspend our disbeliefs, and what matters most is what is enjoyable (and equally important, what makes sense).

[micwini]

Again, that is a claim you are making based on what your interpretation is. It is not something I said and the only one showing your true colors is yourself.

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What about the setting of Rings of Power does not make sense because it included black dwarves and elves? Skin color has never been an important part of Tolkiens story. He even ignores his own world building with different skin tones as well. It might have been something he would have changed in revisions just like he changed the world from flat to round.

It isnt my interpretation. It is what you posted. You posted a link with a racist policy and called it 'not bad'. Thus, you are racist against white people.

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Pretty much the absolute #1 racist comment a racist can make right here. "But I'm not racist you guys, I SWEAR!"

Yep, they're dancing around it, but it is obvious what they're saying. It was there word for word. If you think racist policies 'are not bad'. It means you say 'racism' is OK.

[Rocksteady 87]

Yep, they're dancing around it, but it is obvious what they're saying. It was there word for word. If you think racist policies 'are not bad'. It means you say 'racism' is OK.

Psst.

Hey you. Yeah, you.

I was talking about you.

You said the singular most racist thing racists say.

You.

You said it.

[Xath]

This pretty much confirms my suspicion. There's a massive misunderstanding about racism, bigotry, and diversity in this thread. The truth is people have used the idea of "inauthentic diversity" for decades. It's not modern. Not even a little bit. The black woman who's name I'm forgetting in Star Trek was quite frankly, exactly that.

I'm not going to get into a debate about it here, because it's beyond the scope of the thread, but there are some really good sociology books out there about racism, power and how the people making the rules are the ones who define what counts as "forces diversity". Casting PoC actors doesn't do shit against worldbuilding unless your worldbuilding is bad, or there's a specific in universe reason. There isn't, for Lord of the Rings. People watch media to see characters like them, this isn't new. So it doesn't really matter the how's or why's.

Uhura is not an issue the hell? You are comparing a small isolated population to a crew specifically taken from across multiple cultures. Yes introducing randomness into an isolated population does mess with world building. Just like people would remark on if a single dwarf randomly had diamond skin ala Magni.

[Mace]

Sigh, Rings of Powers while having great visual effects I'm reminded how naff the story is by watching again.

The elves are disappointing - in their effort to more "realistically portray them", "for modern audiences" - they lack the sense of grace and power the novels and the movies gave them, they seem greatly diminished in that respect.

Also the plot about them fading and needing the rings to be immortal, is the most lore breaking and disappointing thing ever. Sure you could argue it isn't lore breaking since Tolkien never said that was not the case, yet to make that a thing is again, imo poor writing, it's something I expect of Tella Novella writers, people who don't quite have the wisdom or integrity to represent the lofty heights their subject matters are supposed to be.

I am reminded of warcraft elves, especially night elves, who have so many excellent attributes and descriptions of them, graceful, super intelligent, and yet when we see them in their games and stories, they are antyhign but, it's like the writers want them to be these things, but are incapable of writing them as such, afterall, they canonly write characters as intelligent or wise as they themselves are.

[micwini]

Psst.

Hey you. Yeah, you.

I was talking about you.

You said the singular most racist thing racists say.

You.

You said it.

Can you point it out? Because the user I quoted literally posted a link with a racist policy and went "no, not bad" just because it was against whites. You might read it back before posting troll comments.

[Mace]

Let's just say I greatly respected Tolkien's writing and the careful way he wrote and portrayed his characters and races.. I do not feel that the makers of the Rings of power have the same level of wisdom or intelligence to do his work justice. PJ did an amazing job with the LotR movies, but then he had direct material to draw from, he didn't do so great when he had to make up a few things for the Hobbit and these guys do even worse.

[Rocksteady 87]

Can you point it out? Because the user I quoted literally posted a link with a racist policy and went "no, not bad" just because it was against whites. You might read it back before posting troll comments.

I'll paraphrase it for you.

"I'm not the racist, you're racist against white people! That's the real racism here! Help, I'm being repressed 'cause I'm white!!!"

[rhorle]

Uhura is not an issue the hell? You are comparing a small isolated population to a crew specifically taken from across multiple cultures. Yes introducing randomness into an isolated population does mess with world building. Just like people would remark on if a single dwarf randomly had diamond skin ala Magni.

What if Eru and Aule created multiple skin tones in the Rings of Power adaptation? Even if we don't look for a simple reason skin tone doesn't mess with any world building in Tolkien's work because the world is not built around it. It is just a descriptor of inhabitants. They exist as they do because of it being something loosely based on England. When he based parts on different cultures he did include different skin tones. If he wrote his story today the diversity in the original work would likely be different.

[micwini]

I'll paraphrase it for you.

"I'm not the racist, you're racist against white people! That's the real racism here! Help, I'm being repressed 'cause I'm white!!!"

Alright, obviously you didn't read the conversation. Moving on.
Seems you're racist too. Laughable.

[Mace]

In conclusion, if this was a fantasy story all by itself, i would have been a lot more impressed with it, but for a Lord of the Rings/Tolkien it noticeably falls short of everything else in Tolkien's work, so I can't help but feel disappointed. It's funny i was never disappointed with the LotR movies, but rather impressed, and I wasn't disappointed with the Hobbit movies either, while I didn't think they were as good, they had the same vein - these, do not. For Lord of the Rings, they're disappointing.

[Dhrizzle]

Do they elaborate on what that means? I want to know if that is an intention of Tolkien or if that is just the show runners interpretation of what man-maiden means, or the excuse for making her so mannish when the way she is portrayed when Tolkien writes her does not fit the way she was portrayed in Season 1 at all, not even close.

I am all too familiar how phrases can be used by people to mean whatever they want when the author could have meant something very different from what they put it too, yet if it is the intention of the author, then it's worth noting and exploring what that means.

Usually when Tolkien refers to a character as an Amazon he means a female soldier not just one trained to fight. He says that Eowyn despite being trained as a shield-maiden was not an Amazon or soldier (early drafts of LotR had Eowyn and her cousin acting as Theoden's bodyguards.) As a lover of the classics he likely used Amazon in the way of the ancient Greek myths.

However, I still don't like how they portray her in season 1 at all. A man-she or male maiden, like a man in a woman's body - it's like hollywood has lost the ability in these mega billion franchises to actually show women as strong and powerful without coming across as masculine. And maybe that is the fault of the type of writers they hire. There are people , women, that only view strong and powerful in the way men are, therefore they feel that a woman can only be strong and powerful when she is behaving like a male. So their characters come off as extremely mannish. Like male characters just using female bodies or actors. In stark contrast to previous decades and shows from europe or Korea and Japan where you can get extremely competent and strong female characters that not once come off as male or make you feel they are male or mannish, yet are incredibly well written, and feel strong and powerful appropriately. And it's amazing how they do this entirely on the credit of the female character, and never need the male characters to be horrible or terrible in comparison which is definitely a consistent trend in the blockbuster franchises put out by Hollywood studios in recent years.

I think this is more a disservice of epic fantasies being male-led for so long. Galadriel doesn't act like any man I'd know in real life, she acts like an Elven fantasy hero. It's just that her positive or heroic traits get dismissed as "mannish" while negative traits that are accepted in male characters get dismissed as "childish."

That said she likely isn't being portrayed exactly as Tolkien would, he never really settled on a story for Galadriel (which would have involved a massive rewrite of the history of the Second Age at the least) but by the notes he made she would probably have been called a "girl-boss" and "Mary Sue." He does at various points describe her "fighting ferociously," having "the eye of a commander" and roaming all over the place setting up kingdoms, preparing people to fight Sauron and even making kings (in at least one version the king of Lorien is her son who she gives the throne, and there's a hint that High King Gil-galad is in suzerainty to her.)

[Triceron]

What if Eru and Aule created multiple skin tones in the Rings of Power adaptation?

It wouldn't ever happen since they don't have the rights to Eru and Aule in the first place. It can and will never manifest in that way because of a liscencing issue. If they already know they would never actually explain it through god-like creation, and yet they went down that road anyways, then I'd say this is still their mess.

It's not accidental omission that Black Elves, Dwarves, Harfoots and Numenoreans suddenly start appearing in Middle Earth's history.

If he wrote his story today the diversity in the original work would likely be different.

Who knows, maybe if he rewrote LOTR today Galadriel could be played by the actress who played Disa. We can put any words in the mouth of the dead.