Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Mace]

In conclusion, if this was a fantasy story all by itself, i would have been a lot more impressed with it, but for a Lord of the Rings/Tolkien it noticeably falls short of everything else in Tolkien's work, so I can't help but feel disappointed. It's funny i was never disappointed with the LotR movies, but rather impressed, and I wasn't disappointed with the Hobbit movies either, while I didn't think they were as good, they had the same vein - these, do not. For Lord of the Rings, they're disappointing.

[Dhrizzle]

Do they elaborate on what that means? I want to know if that is an intention of Tolkien or if that is just the show runners interpretation of what man-maiden means, or the excuse for making her so mannish when the way she is portrayed when Tolkien writes her does not fit the way she was portrayed in Season 1 at all, not even close.

I am all too familiar how phrases can be used by people to mean whatever they want when the author could have meant something very different from what they put it too, yet if it is the intention of the author, then it's worth noting and exploring what that means.

Usually when Tolkien refers to a character as an Amazon he means a female soldier not just one trained to fight. He says that Eowyn despite being trained as a shield-maiden was not an Amazon or soldier (early drafts of LotR had Eowyn and her cousin acting as Theoden's bodyguards.) As a lover of the classics he likely used Amazon in the way of the ancient Greek myths.

However, I still don't like how they portray her in season 1 at all. A man-she or male maiden, like a man in a woman's body - it's like hollywood has lost the ability in these mega billion franchises to actually show women as strong and powerful without coming across as masculine. And maybe that is the fault of the type of writers they hire. There are people , women, that only view strong and powerful in the way men are, therefore they feel that a woman can only be strong and powerful when she is behaving like a male. So their characters come off as extremely mannish. Like male characters just using female bodies or actors. In stark contrast to previous decades and shows from europe or Korea and Japan where you can get extremely competent and strong female characters that not once come off as male or make you feel they are male or mannish, yet are incredibly well written, and feel strong and powerful appropriately. And it's amazing how they do this entirely on the credit of the female character, and never need the male characters to be horrible or terrible in comparison which is definitely a consistent trend in the blockbuster franchises put out by Hollywood studios in recent years.

I think this is more a disservice of epic fantasies being male-led for so long. Galadriel doesn't act like any man I'd know in real life, she acts like an Elven fantasy hero. It's just that her positive or heroic traits get dismissed as "mannish" while negative traits that are accepted in male characters get dismissed as "childish."

That said she likely isn't being portrayed exactly as Tolkien would, he never really settled on a story for Galadriel (which would have involved a massive rewrite of the history of the Second Age at the least) but by the notes he made she would probably have been called a "girl-boss" and "Mary Sue." He does at various points describe her "fighting ferociously," having "the eye of a commander" and roaming all over the place setting up kingdoms, preparing people to fight Sauron and even making kings (in at least one version the king of Lorien is her son who she gives the throne, and there's a hint that High King Gil-galad is in suzerainty to her.)

[Triceron]

What if Eru and Aule created multiple skin tones in the Rings of Power adaptation?

It wouldn't ever happen since they don't have the rights to Eru and Aule in the first place. It can and will never manifest in that way because of a liscencing issue. If they already know they would never actually explain it through god-like creation, and yet they went down that road anyways, then I'd say this is still their mess.

It's not accidental omission that Black Elves, Dwarves, Harfoots and Numenoreans suddenly start appearing in Middle Earth's history.

If he wrote his story today the diversity in the original work would likely be different.

Who knows, maybe if he rewrote LOTR today Galadriel could be played by the actress who played Disa. We can put any words in the mouth of the dead.

[Dhrizzle]

just to be clear here, because it's blatantly apparent that you will spout any old trash to try and defend your point:

before a single minute of footage was seen for this show, and the characters were revealed, it was highlighted that the racist hiring mandate of Amazon was likely the main reason behind many of the badly written fan fiction characters of this show, and a pure example of tokenism in action.

as to your asinine jab, I said why can't Tom Holland play the next black panther, seeing as you and the person I was responding to seem to think that any actor can play any role regardless of whether the source material dictates that the character be presented a certain way or not, so I used a very sensible example which just proves you and the rest are racist against white people because of your flippant response as seen here and elsewhere, if you're gonna try to quote something I said, at least have the fucking decency to quote it properly with context, and not just do what you normally do and cherry pick and fabricate to suit your narrative.

My bad, it was the other English Tom H. from the Marvel films you suggested should play Martin Luther King. So the question is, do you really think the colour of MLK's skin is not significant to his story as a leader in the civil rights movement seeking equality for African-Americans? Do you think that race is insignificant to a character who leads an isolationist African nation that kept itself hidden in the face of European colonialism?

you said 'Aragorn, Boromir and Faramir should have been beardless', why? what does having a beard change in respect to the story being told?

Their beardlessness is a sign of the Elven blood they carry as nobility of the royal line of Numenor, it's particularly important for Aragorn and Faramir who, along with Denethor, represent a resurgence of the blood of the high men with abilities beyond regular humans.

you went on a tangent talking about these character's appearance, so I have stated that if you want to be a pedantic little fuck about such details, then they should all look like they are from the Balkans/southern Mediterranean because that would make them as close to a 1:1 representation of the people who live in a climate such as that represented by Gondor and the surrounding areas as well as that of Numenor because again you and the rest of the cult are making such pathetic and pedantic arguments over the smallest little detail being wrong as a 'gotcha' when someone comes in with criticism of the show it's basically 'so you're ok with *insert your pedantic little pet peeve here* but not ok with *insert actual legitimate criticism here*, how is that not being a hypocrite', that's EXACTLY what you're doing to me here, it's what you have done to other in other posts.

You seem to be labouring under the assumption that biology in Arda works the same as it does in our world, something Tolkien firmly rejected. The Numenoreans are a few thousand years away from the time they were uplifted by godlike beings to have lifespans and abilities beyond those of normal Men, traits that waned not because of mixing with other "low Men" but due to their spiritual degradation.

using your vast wealth of knowledge on the topic, explain in painful detail how you would make the orcs look on screen, take your time I have all day, I want to know PRECISELY what every film-maker in the history of tv and cinema could do moving forward from someone such as yourself who is clearly well versed on the topic of taking something from page to screen, I'm sure you could teach generations to come with your understanding /s.

I'm not so petty as to want such a pedantic thing changed because it's not 1:1 with the source material as how orcs are portrayed in the PJ trilogy or other subsequent media since because it doesn't match with word for word descriptions in the books.

Definitely smaller than usually portrayed, Tolkien's Orcs are not much bigger than Hobbits (though Uruk-hai are almost as tall as Men.) Broad and squat, long arms, stooped gait. To be truly how Tolkien described them they'd have to look a bit like racist Asian stereotypes though I wouldn't recommend that for a modern audience, however I find both the trilogy and the series go too far trying to make them look like disfigured monsters.

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Was healing a traditionally female pursuit in Middle-Earth? I know it is in modern fantasy games, in WW2 and most of the early half of the 20th century, most physicians were male, understanding Tolkien's time is relevant to interpreting his work .

Among the Noldor yes it was mostly the female Elves who were healers. Part of the reason they traditionally eschewed combat or soldiery was because of a belief that shedding blood lowered the potency of their healing crafts.

And what exactly did he mean by Amazonian? [Amazon prime? - j/k btw -but yeh, this is an example of how man-maiden can be twisted to go far beyond the author's original intention] again, I think Amazonian as more of the early 80s and 70s shows/comics like Wonder Woman, or athletic women, skillful and well versed i combat as portrayed in those fantasies, but a female and a woman, funny , like She-ra in the Masters of the Universe 80s cartoons ( I watched in the 90s/00s as a kid), I never felt those characters to be mannish, despite their rather masculine roles of fighting and combat.. i just felt they were women who could fight well and thought them cool. .they never fel t like men.

Tolkien was referencing the Amazons in the Greek myths, a society of warrior women known for their soldiery and who inspired the society Wonder Woman came form.

This Galadriel in the show, she feels like a man, ,not one of those old time Amazons or She-Ra, she came across like an angry young male adult, and not a very good or very nice person either Lots of questionable moral decisions that I didn't like nor thought was cool. But like I mentioned previously, today's Hollywood women of action, many leads in the Galadriel mould do not come of as strong fighting women, they come off as men in women's bodies and it is often weird. But Galadriel, the character in Season 1 was not likeable.

I shall give a watch of a bit more of the first episode of season 2 when I have dinner, and see if they change her, but season 1 really did ruin the character.. how do you walk that back? It's not just her mannish behaviou though, the character does some really dodgy stuff I just thought, that's downright evil, not cunning, and far removed from what I expected an elf to be, and expected Galadriel to be. but maybe some like it, the consensus I have observed in ratings and reviews, is that most do not.

As I replied to someone else, Galadriel doesn't feel like "a man" to me, just like a fantasy Elven hero who is in a role traditionally taken up by men. The Galadriel in RoP is more flawed than Tolkien described her in some of his later writings (he never settled on a final story for her and Celeborn) but the traits she displays are very much in line with the Noldor who were quite frankly awful Elves responsible for all (I think) the Kinslayings of the First Age and many other evils (though they were not explicitly evil, just misguided, bitter, proud, arrogant and disillusioned with the Valar.) It's this dark side Galadriel inherited from her people that she suppresses when Frodo offers her the Ring, finally convincing herself she is fit and worthy to sale West to Aman.

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Is anything that micwini is saying considered abnormal? Is it not normal to care about the world building and the expectations behind the depictions of certain fictional races?

I get that you can say there are people who don't have a problem with it, but that doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist to everyone else. Nor do I think the use of 'normal person' is very good when that implies that anyone who has a problem isn't normal, and I'm not sure if that's the message you are wanting to get across.

I think it's just a matter that for most people there's nothing noteworthy about seeing the occasional non-white person in a majority white group. That's just what society looks like in America and Europe which is where most of the cast and crew come from. They could have made the aesthetic choice to make mono-ethnic groups to perfectly match descriptions in the books, or they could let anyone audition and just cast the best actors for the job. There are arguments for both and they chose the latter, and I think that Arondir and Disa are so well performed that the choice is vindicated.

[Rocksteady 87]

Alright, obviously you didn't read the conversation. Moving on.
Seems you're racist too. Laughable.

No, I read it.

And no, pointing out that specific individuals are racists isn't "racist." It's hilarious that you think it is though.

[Triceron]

I think it's just a matter that for most people there's nothing noteworthy about seeing the occasional non-white person in a majority white group.

You'd be right, for the most part. I'd even consider myself part of that group. Most of the time, I don't fuss over non-white people in a majority white group.


Where would I have issue with it? If it's a jarring insertion that doesn't make much sense for the setting being presented. And that's what I find is happening recently, where fictional settings that have been quite well established with decades worth of visual aids is now being challenged with inauthentic diversity. And I only consider it inauthentic if it has no rhyme or reason to explain itself being there, within the fictional setting.

That's just what society looks like in America and Europe which is where most of the cast and crew come from. They could have made the aesthetic choice to make mono-ethnic groups to perfectly match descriptions in the books, or they could let anyone audition and just cast the best actors for the job. There are arguments for both and they chose the latter, and I think that Arondir and Disa are so well performed that the choice is vindicated.

If we're just gonna talk about actors performing well, why not have Galadriel be portrayed by a large black woman? Are we really going to make an argument that appearances don't matter?

My opinion is I think appearances, like skin tones, matter to the setting of a fictional story. I think that inauthentic diversity hurts the depiction of a fictional setting more than it helps it. And I do think that when we look back on this series years in the future, societal norms will move on, and we're going to see more of how this doesn't help define the Fantasy genre. It's whiteface. I would much rather we take a look at how Game of Thrones handled integrating various people of color into the story and setting, rather than merely making every fictional setting a diverse melting pot. I would equate this to the 2016 Ghostbusters, which tried to be trendy and progressive, and won't be remembered well for its attempt.

And if we do analyze what Amazon is doing with its company-wide diversity goals... I do agree with micwini that those policies are racist. If two people performed a role great, and the company has a certain status quo to meet, then the weight of the choice leans on more than just the performance. It's going to lean on skin color. I get if companies want to have such things in place to promote diversity, but film adaptations are a creative medium where not every production will (or should) be represented as a melting pot society. This is one of the things that I think hurts the portrayal of Wheel of Time's setting more than it helps.



Again, I agree that Disa's performance was great. I can't say the same about Arondir, because I found the character wooden and unlikeable and built with too much plot armor in mind. But simply liking the actors or performances isn't going to erase how I feel about them not matching the setting that has been presented, a setting that has no in-world explanation for what we're expected to accept as a normal part of these fictional race biology and social orders. In my opinion, it plays off as a high-school/college production more than it does a high-budget series that can afford to depict the setting as authentically as they have the power to.

[rogoth]

My bad, it was the other English Tom H. from the Marvel films you suggested should play Martin Luther King. So the question is, do you really think the colour of MLK's skin is not significant to his story as a leader in the civil rights movement seeking equality for African-Americans? Do you think that race is insignificant to a character who leads an isolationist African nation that kept itself hidden in the face of European colonialism?



Their beardlessness is a sign of the Elven blood they carry as nobility of the royal line of Numenor, it's particularly important for Aragorn and Faramir who, along with Denethor, represent a resurgence of the blood of the high men with abilities beyond regular humans.



You seem to be labouring under the assumption that biology in Arda works the same as it does in our world, something Tolkien firmly rejected. The Numenoreans are a few thousand years away from the time they were uplifted by godlike beings to have lifespans and abilities beyond those of normal Men, traits that waned not because of mixing with other "low Men" but due to their spiritual degradation.



Definitely smaller than usually portrayed, Tolkien's Orcs are not much bigger than Hobbits (though Uruk-hai are almost as tall as Men.) Broad and squat, long arms, stooped gait. To be truly how Tolkien described them they'd have to look a bit like racist Asian stereotypes though I wouldn't recommend that for a modern audience, however I find both the trilogy and the series go too far trying to make them look like disfigured monsters.

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Among the Noldor yes it was mostly the female Elves who were healers. Part of the reason they traditionally eschewed combat or soldiery was because of a belief that shedding blood lowered the potency of their healing crafts.



Tolkien was referencing the Amazons in the Greek myths, a society of warrior women known for their soldiery and who inspired the society Wonder Woman came form.



As I replied to someone else, Galadriel doesn't feel like "a man" to me, just like a fantasy Elven hero who is in a role traditionally taken up by men. The Galadriel in RoP is more flawed than Tolkien described her in some of his later writings (he never settled on a final story for her and Celeborn) but the traits she displays are very much in line with the Noldor who were quite frankly awful Elves responsible for all (I think) the Kinslayings of the First Age and many other evils (though they were not explicitly evil, just misguided, bitter, proud, arrogant and disillusioned with the Valar.) It's this dark side Galadriel inherited from her people that she suppresses when Frodo offers her the Ring, finally convincing herself she is fit and worthy to sale West to Aman.

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I think it's just a matter that for most people there's nothing noteworthy about seeing the occasional non-white person in a majority white group. That's just what society looks like in America and Europe which is where most of the cast and crew come from. They could have made the aesthetic choice to make mono-ethnic groups to perfectly match descriptions in the books, or they could let anyone audition and just cast the best actors for the job. There are arguments for both and they chose the latter, and I think that Arondir and Disa are so well performed that the choice is vindicated.

I think it's extremely important, but you failed to grasp the point being made by my egregious statement, adamas and you and a few others have stated that looks don't matter and that anybody should be able to play any role, regardless of whether the material calls for it or not, I gave an example that on paper would work perfectly fine, but in practice would be viewed as abhorrent by almost everybody, yet it goes to show how moronic the defence of these fictional characters who are purely there as token characters to use as chess pieces in the game of 'modern audience chasing', the material doesn't call for these characters to exist, yet here we are.

i have tried desperately to explain the point repeatedly, and either you're not mentally capable of understanding the point, or you're actively ignoring the point because it doesn't fit your narrative perspective, you say that 'real world biology doesn't work the same way in arda', so why the hell does 'real world biology' need to be represented in this show? if as you say it's not a thing, why are these showrunners going out of their way to make token box-ticking characters that serve no purpose other than to allow them to shout from the rooftops 'hey look guys, we are diverse and inclusive', why is it so important to have 'modern day' represented in work that Tolkien himself stated multiple times he abhorred, and that LOTR was meant as an escape from the real world and didn't want any 'modern day' to be featured in it?

you can't both claim that biology doesn't work in the setting, then laud and extoll it as 'brave' and 'exquisite' casting that these token characters exist, that's not how it works.

[Eapoe]

I think it's extremely important, but you failed to grasp the point being made by my egregious statement, adamas and you and a few others have stated that looks don't matter and that anybody should be able to play any role, regardless of whether the material calls for it or not, I gave an example that on paper would work perfectly fine, but in practice would be viewed as abhorrent by almost everybody, yet it goes to show how moronic the defence of these fictional characters who are purely there as token characters to use as chess pieces in the game of 'modern audience chasing', the material doesn't call for these characters to exist, yet here we are.

i have tried desperately to explain the point repeatedly, and either you're not mentally capable of understanding the point, or you're actively ignoring the point because it doesn't fit your narrative perspective, you say that 'real world biology doesn't work the same way in arda', so why the hell does 'real world biology' need to be represented in this show? if as you say it's not a thing, why are these showrunners going out of their way to make token box-ticking characters that serve no purpose other than to allow them to shout from the rooftops 'hey look guys, we are diverse and inclusive', why is it so important to have 'modern day' represented in work that Tolkien himself stated multiple times he abhorred, and that LOTR was meant as an escape from the real world and didn't want any 'modern day' to be featured in it?

you can't both claim that biology doesn't work in the setting, then laud and extoll it as 'brave' and 'exquisite' casting that these token characters exist, that's not how it works.

Everyone always brings up making Black Panther a white character, but always fail to realize that his & his people’s skin is part of the entire story and background of the character. To change them to being white, you need to fundamentally change the entire story, as well as the world they are in to some alternate version of earth. I guess if you want to make it an earth variant it could work, but it does not apply to the versions we have now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blac...er_(character)

This is not equivalent to a show having a POC dwarf that has never been described (canonically) as red, black, white, brown, green, blue, or any other color. Nor does it have any cultural impact or change any significant background on anything in the story.
The only thing that her existence as a person with dark skin does is reveal bigots and fragile egos.
There is no precedent that every character in Middle Earth is white, nor is there any reason to believe so other than a narrow view based on what a bunch of artists and filmmakers have done in their own vision.

If I want to reduce myself to some of these crazy topics people are using to justify their view, let’s look at how others have portrayed Tolkien’s works.
“A large number of white people get together to fight and push back the evil dark skinned villains of the story.” If you really want to bring race into the conversation, maybe we should look at some of the potential subtext that previous film makers may have inadvertently put in their films. The villains trying to wipe everyone out and run the world are all gross, dark skin races and characters (outside of a few white people who have infiltrated the opposing faction), and have to be defeated by an all white army.
Sounds pretty f’d up if you ask me. Also sounds just as ridiculous as people being ticked off about a black dwarf that changes nothing to the story or background of any known/described characters.

[Dhrizzle]

I think it's extremely important, but you failed to grasp the point being made by my egregious statement, adamas and you and a few others have stated that looks don't matter and that anybody should be able to play any role,

I haven't said that. I've said that the benefits of restricting the pool of actors for aesthetic purposes can be weighed against the benefits of having totally open casting to ensure the best performance is found and for whatever benefits a diverse cast brings.

so why the hell does 'real world biology' need to be represented in this show?

Because whatever criteria is applied to who can audition the pool of actors is still going to be restricted by "real world biology."

why is it so important to have 'modern day' represented in work that Tolkien himself stated multiple times he abhorred, and that LOTR was meant as an escape from the real world and didn't want any 'modern day' to be featured in it?

What are you talking about?

you can't both claim that biology doesn't work in the setting, then laud and extoll it as 'brave' and 'exquisite' casting that these token characters exist, that's not how it works.

When did I laud and extoll it as 'brave' and 'exquisite' casting that these characters exist?

[Triceron]

This is not equivalent to a show having a POC dwarf that has never been described (canonically) as red, black, white, brown, green, blue, or any other color.

Wouldn't it imply that Durin's line has black skin tone genetics since it runs down from Disa? A bloodline that includes characters like Thorin, Oin and Gloin?

So I would say while not directly changing anything, it does have implications which are a bit wavy. Of course, I don't have a problem with it conceptually, but I would totally question it as I am doing now.

[jbombard]

Everyone always brings up making Black Panther a white character, but always fail to realize that his & his people’s skin is part of the entire story and background of the character. To change them to being white, you need to fundamentally change the entire story, as well as the world they are in to some alternate version of earth. I guess if you want to make it an earth variant it could work, but it does not apply to the versions we have now.

Marvel could totally do it if they wanted to. A disaster hits Wakanda and they give the suit to some other white hero they trust. It would be an extremely unpopular choice, and that is why they wouldn't do it. But unlike Tolkien, the Marvel universe is not one writer, and the world is constantly evolving. Middle earth canon is what J.R.R Tolkein published or put his stamp of approval on. period. Things he did not publish could just be brainstorming ideas, ideas for something else entirely, they are not fully formed and he did not deem them worthy of publishing hence they never became part of Middle Earth and are not canon.

"Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world." J.R.R. Tolkein

[eschatological]

You could change the race of War Machine and it wouldn't make a difference at all. Just needs to be a military guy. They've changed the race of Nick Fury as well, it didn't make a lick of difference, because they wanted SLJ to play Fury. Again, race doesn't matter to either of these characters (whether black or white). This is true for Tolkein's dwarves, or Hermione.

Black Panther is fundamentally a black, African story. MLK is a fundamental figure in the history of African Civil Rights. These hypotheticals are ridiculous and you know that.

It should be noted that white folk have been playing brown folk for a long time and y'all didn't seem to give one hot damn about that. Gandhi - played by a biracial man, Ben Kingsley. The King of Siam, played by Yul Brynner, literally Russian. The Gods of Egypt, played by a bunch of white Hollywood actors, which is kind of the first time people started saying, "Hey, maybe you should get Arabic people to play Arabic gods." Didn't stop the moviemakers. Jesus, historically a brown Arabic man, played by white men for literal decades, depicted as a white man for literal centuries, to the point that most people think he was a white man with blue eyes. Ben-Hur, a fictional Arabic Jew, played by fucking Charlton Heston.

So come off it.

[Xath]

What if Eru and Aule created multiple skin tones in the Rings of Power adaptation? Even if we don't look for a simple reason skin tone doesn't mess with any world building in Tolkien's work because the world is not built around it. It is just a descriptor of inhabitants. They exist as they do because of it being something loosely based on England. When he based parts on different cultures he did include different skin tones. If he wrote his story today the diversity in the original work would likely be different.

That's one hell of an assumption with very little if anything to back it up. It's not like Tolkien wasn't aware of non white people he likely fought beside quite a few in the Battle of the Somme. He made a decision to create isolated cultures it's the same thing as Wheel the specific cultures themselves are isolated the world as whole is quite diverse but not the specific cultural groups. It's like if a small town of a thousand is kept isolated they will basically end up looking extremely similar after a few generations.

[Triceron]

It should be noted that white folk have been playing brown folk for a long time and y'all didn't seem to give one hot damn about that. Gandhi - played by a biracial man, Ben Kingsley. The King of Siam, played by Yul Brynner, literally Russian. The Gods of Egypt, played by a bunch of white Hollywood actors, which is kind of the first time people started saying, "Hey, maybe you should get Arabic people to play Arabic gods." Didn't stop the moviemakers. Jesus, historically a brown Arabic man, played by white men for literal decades, depicted as a white man for literal centuries, to the point that most people think he was a white man with blue eyes. Ben-Hur, a fictional Arabic Jew, played by fucking Charlton Heston.

So come off it.

Didn't stop the movie makers, so we just have the reverse happen to make up for it?

Okay.

[bledgor]

Didn't stop the movie makers, so we just have the reverse happen to make up for it?

Okay.

He also ignores fans did get upset about it (at least I know in recent times, wasn't around for some of those so can't vouch for all), just like with Scarlet in Ghost in a Shell. Eschatological is a horribly biased mod, don't expect good takes/fair discussion from him and you will be better off.

[rhorle]

That's one hell of an assumption with very little if anything to back it up. It's not like Tolkien wasn't aware of non white people he likely fought beside quite a few in the Battle of the Somme. He made a decision to create isolated cultures it's the same thing as Wheel the specific cultures themselves are isolated the world as whole is quite diverse but not the specific cultural groups. It's like if a small town of a thousand is kept isolated they will basically end up looking extremely similar after a few generations.

He didn't make his cultures isolated though. They all went over the place including the parts inspired by the Far East and Ethiopia/Africa. He just made the primary focus of the story based on cultures of England. The Easterlings has inspiration huns and were described as "swarthy". That means dark-skinned.

[Triceron]

He also ignores fans did get upset about it (in recent times, wasn't around for some of those so can't vouch for all), just like with Scarlet in Ghost in a Shell. Eschatological is a horribly biased mod, don't expect good takes/fair discussion from him and you will be better off.

It's a very odd angle to take. Acknowledging that something is wrong yet continues, so the reverse situation should be completely acceptable. I don't get what the point is even to make, probably would have been better not saying anything at all.

[Eapoe]

Wouldn't it imply that Durin's line has black skin tone genetics since it runs down from Disa? A bloodline that includes characters like Thorin, Oin and Gloin?

So I would say while not directly changing anything, it does have implications which are a bit wavy. Of course, I don't have a problem with it conceptually, but I would totally question it as I am doing now.

Considering what I remember, and everything I can find from a quick search, has nothing about how those characters look (outside of Gloin having red hair when young, and white when older, which is not exclusive to white people), then this all comes down to what the creators want to use for their interpretation.

As a side note, if you want a real misrepresentation of the source material, look up Thranduil from Bakshi’s The Hobbit animated movie. Yet, according to some people’s arguments, that interpretation should be used because that precedent was set long before Peter Jackson came along.

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Marvel could totally do it if they wanted to. A disaster hits Wakanda and they give the suit to some other white hero they trust. It would be an extremely unpopular choice, and that is why they wouldn't do it. But unlike Tolkien, the Marvel universe is not one writer, and the world is constantly evolving. Middle earth canon is what J.R.R Tolkein published or put his stamp of approval on. period. Things he did not publish could just be brainstorming ideas, ideas for something else entirely, they are not fully formed and he did not deem them worthy of publishing hence they never became part of Middle Earth and are not canon.

"Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world." J.R.R. Tolkein

But that’s not what people are saying when they come up with that argument. They are trying to say to use a white actor to play T’challa, which doesn’t work because a big part of him is his ethnicity and prejudices he, and his people, face. If T’challa is killed or injured and a white person takes up the mantle briefly, until a better replacement comes along, is completely different than casting a white person to play the character of T’challa.
The 2nd part you bring up is very well suited to this conversation, because there is nothing canonically written about what dwarves skin color looks like, nor is there anything in the writing to make it relevant in any way.

[jbombard]

Considering what I remember, and everything I can find from a quick search, has nothing about how those characters look (outside of Gloin having red hair when young, and white when older, which is not exclusive to white people), then this all comes down to what the creators want to use for their interpretation.

As a side note, if you want a real misrepresentation of the source material, look up Thranduil from Bakshi’s The Hobbit animated movie. Yet, according to some people’s arguments, that interpretation should be used because that precedent was set long before Peter Jackson came along.

There is no canon as far as dwarves are concerned. There is however a perception that people formed based on everything that come before RoP(illustrations, animation, movies etc...) The average person doesn't care about or even know what is canon. They have this image in their heads of what dwarves look like and having their perception broken by RoP made them upset. It probably wouldn't have been as jarring if all the dwarves were black, but who knows. We have one black dwarf with no backround or explanation. That gives the perception that RoP changed things just to have PoC hires, which is probably true. Tolkein didn't think we should be explicitly addressing real world issues in fantasy stories.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

As a side note, if you want a real misrepresentation of the source material, look up Thranduil from Bakshi’s The Hobbit animated movie. Yet, according to some people’s arguments, that interpretation should be used because that precedent was set long before Peter Jackson came along.

We should all be upset we didn't get native American Aragorn in the PJ movies to, he was fire in the animated movie.