Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Xath]

Gaming I'll give you - definitely been on the rise since its introduction in the 80s. Course the biggest money makers are gambling-loot-box mainstream SPORTS games, but yes, gaming is definitely not seen as that 'eww your a nerd' negative it use to be.

Movies - eh. SOME nerd genres - like Superheroes because of Marvel. (those top grossing movies you're talking about of the past decade) and giant world-disaster/apocalypse movies(which do fit into this genre to me) and, now because of Disney MORE STAR WARS than ever (good or bad - its scifi but its the same reason we have more comic movies lol) - those are on the 'up' as far as mainstream acceptance. Remains to be seen if this will continue or get beaten into the ground by B grade productions . I mean I hope it keeps going - but we also know Hollywood can burn the 'mainstream' people out on it too if its all crap.

But "Serious Nerd" scifi and fantasy genre stuff like Dune, LOTR type movies, Matrix movies, (And I'll include Inception and Tenet too as they fit that genre to me) are still ONE movie every few years at Best. THIS genre is still 'niche' but yes, gaining ground. And again - since DUNE didn't even get approval for its second half until WB got 'proof of the money potential', it IS still seen as 'niche' enough to 'not guarantee the numbers' to justify them backing their own two-part movie of a single story.

TV - are you serious? HBO had the ONE and pretty much only one - fantasy series in the last 20 years and that's 'most of the shows on tv and streaming?' That's not mainstream yet. Yes, everyone's scrambling to try and copy their 'surprise success' but there's also a reason everyone was 'surprised' (outside of nerd-dom) that it was so successful. A success NONE of these other fantasy/scifi shows have managed to copy yet. No one else has captured that 'lightening in a bottle' - not because the source material isn't good, but because clearly they aren't actual nerds at the helm .

And that's one show out of literally dozens, possibly HUNDREDS that HBO put out in that same 20 year period. It is NOT "most of streaming shows" are scifi and fantasy now. NO they really aren't. Out of dozens of new releases on Netflix a month, most months go by with no scifi or fantasy anything at all. Same with ALL the streaming channels. They may have one or two scifi/fantasy-esque series they put out a YEAR (maybe), but they have dozens and dozens of other genre shows being put out at the same time.

Prior to that we had B grade shows on Scifi that only 'niche' populations watched, Whedonverse/Supernatural/et al. shows on the WB that again only niche populations watched, and the occasional "Awesome show" that was truly nerd-"mainstream", like X-files. We had Firefly (cancelled), Almost Human (cancelled), etc.. And there hasn't been another 'big scifi' show popular like the Xfiles in the 90s, since the 90s. There's been shows with flavorings of scifi mixed in - and some have done well and some never lasted a season.

There ARE other really good and solid 1-3 season Scifi/Fantasy shows on streaming channels out there - but they aren't mainstream, most people haven't watched them or even heard these streaming networks have them in the 'general public' if you ask, they are still a more 'nerd' niche genre. (Lost in Space on Netflix, American Gods on Starz, for examples) Yes, we have Umbrella Academy, and Doom Patrol, and The Boys, et al. also (course all those are comics again) - those ilks. But in no way are those numbers indicating a 'take over' of scifi/fantasy genre shows now being the 'highest grossing/most watched tv shows of them all year after year.' No. I mean I wish - but they just aren't.

Its a niche that is BIGGER for sure than it was in the 80s and 90s, and its pushing to try and get more and more mainstream for the $$ - but it is still niche. The number of scifi/fantasy shows released and in-production (outside of comic book related) in the last ten years is still a minority percentage of the total number of new shows released in that same period.

And everyone on these forums fit THAT niche, simply by sitting here and reading and posting on forums. We may want to think we are 'less nerdy' than we use to be, we may all want to feel more mainstream (I mean I don't give a shit but just saying) - but the fact is, we aren't totally there yet. Its HAPPENING - its getting there hopefully - but until I start seeing primetime scifi shows in the same number as reality shows, dramas, and comedies - we are NOT mainstream yet; and could really easily slip back under - especially the stuff outside of comic book Supes. I mean I just had a talk with a teenager who's big into marvel movies and comics - attending a huge high school here with a probably stronger than average 'high acheiving' population of students because of this area - and even she commented that 'most people at her high school are big into the movies but if I start talking comic stuff their eyes glaze over and they have no idea what I'm talking about.' So no, that's not mainstreaming acceptance of the genre - outside of the movie of the month.

Yes, I know I missed shows and movies that were/are popular and, while not the level of "GoT" for HBO successful, still more mainstream appreciated. But my overall point is even if 10% of the shows being put out are all scifi or fantasy focused - that's still 90% of the rest of the shows that aren't. And that's not 'all the most watched shows' out there. Not even on all the streaming channels. Each one has its own, but its just one or two.

But I am hopeful! Just hope hollywood doesn't burn ALL of us - nerds and non-nerds alike - out on the B grade attempts at cash grabs. Just ruins it for the Dunes and LOTR productions.

Witcher is enormous, Good Omens was a big hit obviously GoT Hawkeye Boba Fett Mandalorian were all massive hits for Disneym Wandavision was big. There are fewer overall shows but they get massive viewership. The reason there are fewer is they are more expensive to make.

[Dhrizzle]

Talking so much about LotR, don't you feel the urge to read it all again?
I'd start with Silmarillion this time

Or maybe I'd feel angry for what is Amazon doing?

I listened to Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion audiobooks recently, only issue is trying to keep track of the Sons of Feanor and what they're all up to.

[Rennadrel]

To be fair, I doubt the Tolkien Estate would ever liscence the latter for multimedia entertainment.

Anything being done with the Second Age in movies or games would have to be mostly new stuff anyways.

Hence why people think this show is going to be more of a work of fan fiction rather than something interesting that lines up with Tolkien's work. Activists always think themselves better than the people who actually create beloved entertainment and it always shows in the quality of their adaptations.

Whether it be the WoT show, Death Note and Cowboy Bebop being adapted for live action or Star Wars fans hating on the Book of Boba Fett for bastardizing his character, Vagrant Queen getting canned mid season, this is why you don't employ untalented people who spend half their time on Twitter.

I'd be willing to give this show a chance but I have zero faith in Amazon allowing something good to be produced after how much they royally fucked up the WoT story.

[Ivanstone]

this is why you don't employ untalented people who spend half their time on Twitter.

So what's your excuse for the legions of mediocre TV and movies created by white people starring white people in the pre-Twitter age?

Was SW Ep9 a pile of trash? Yes. But so was SW Ep1.
Was Ghostbusters 2016 only intermittently funny? Yes but so was Ghostbusters 2.
Etc
Etc
Etc

[LTN]

Talking so much about LotR, don't you feel the urge to read it all again?
I'd start with Silmarillion this time

Or maybe I'd feel angry for what is Amazon doing?

Still going through the wheel of time audio book myself. I forgot how boring the white tower was as a plot point... rest is good though and I imagine it is just an issue of taste.

[Rennadrel]

So what's your excuse for the legions of mediocre TV and movies created by white people starring white people in the pre-Twitter age?

Was SW Ep9 a pile of trash? Yes. But so was SW Ep1.
Was Ghostbusters 2016 only intermittently funny? Yes but so was Ghostbusters 2.
Etc
Etc
Etc

No one has ever said those films weren't bad. There's plenty of bad movies among the gems, just like any other form of entertainment. Do you know what the difference is though? Their creators weren't using it as a platform to promote their own personal politics. Everyone and their mother knows Ghostbusters 2 is shit and that George Lucas can't write a script to save his life. But at least they are entertaining rather than propaganda.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

No one has ever said those films weren't bad. There's plenty of bad movies among the gems, just like any other form of entertainment. Do you know what the difference is though? Their creators weren't using it as a platform to promote their own personal politics. Everyone and their mother knows Ghostbusters 2 is shit and that George Lucas can't write a script to save his life. But at least they are entertaining rather than propaganda.

All of lucas’s starwars movies are filled with propaganda rather it be anti war anti imperialism anti capitalist ect. None of it is even subtle in any way.

[Biomega]

So what's your excuse for the legions of mediocre TV and movies created by white people starring white people in the pre-Twitter age?

I think bad movies are bad largely because of things like bad writing - something that definitely hasn't changed.

The main difference I see is that "back in the day" if you wrote a bad movie, you knew you'd written a bad movie; but now when people write a bad movie, there is a tendency towards a first response along the lines of "it's not a bad movie, you just hate it because we cast a black person/woman/etc.!" when it's STILL just bad because of bad writing.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

All of lucas’s starwars movies are filled with propaganda rather it be anti war

I don't recall the original trilogy being anti-war. It glorified leaving your "mundane peasant farmer life" to become a war hero and fly spacecraft, get into dog fights, and wage heroic battles.

At most, you could stretch the Battle of Endor into being a metaphor for the natives of Vietnam being exploited by first world powers, but that is quite a reach.

anti imperialism

The original trilogy doesn't go into the politics of the Empire. They're just the bad guys. Also, the rebels are depicted using Triumph of the Will imagery.

anti capitalist

Corporations and businesses do not appear in the Original Trilogy in any form whatsoever.

The Original Trilogy is a sword and sorcery movie about plucky heroes fighting bad guys and evil wizards. It isn't until the prequel trilogy where we start getting a message about how fragile and corruptible democracies are, the hypocrisy of republics that ostensibly stand for freedom and justice, the danger of megacorporations, and so on.

Still going through the wheel of time audio book myself. I forgot how boring the white tower was as a plot point... rest is good though and I imagine it is just an issue of taste.

No, modern fantasy is just bad. After book 4, the WoT books are all about characters sitting around talking about nothing. Nothing is revealed about the world. The characters aren't acting, they're just sitting around, passively flailing their arms around, reacting to irrelevant events. There are twenty different plots and they all advance an inch. Worse is that WoT (and ASOIAF and SA) became popular, so now everyone thinks that's what fantasy should be and that's how the drek of today is perpetuated. People need to read good books that respect their time like Howard or Moorcock again.

[Triceron]

Hence why people think this show is going to be more of a work of fan fiction rather than something interesting that lines up with Tolkien's work. Activists always think themselves better than the people who actually create beloved entertainment and it always shows in the quality of their adaptations.

Whether it be the WoT show, Death Note and Cowboy Bebop being adapted for live action or Star Wars fans hating on the Book of Boba Fett for bastardizing his character, Vagrant Queen getting canned mid season, this is why you don't employ untalented people who spend half their time on Twitter.

I'd be willing to give this show a chance but I have zero faith in Amazon allowing something good to be produced after how much they royally fucked up the WoT story.

All these shows suffered from bad writing. Thats the common thread here.

Activism has little to do with it. Mandalorian S2 has a TON of 'Women power' including the last ep where literally everyone helping Din is female. BoBF is also made by the same creators as Mandalorian, so this has nothing to do with 'untalented people who spend half their time on Twitter'.

The show was bad because it was bad. Putting the blame on 'Activism' is just an excuse, considering the head writers and producers are still Favreau and Filoni.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't recall the original trilogy being anti-war. It glorified leaving your "mundane peasant farmer life" to become a war hero and fly spacecraft, get into dog fights, and wage heroic battles.

At most, you could stretch the Battle of Endor into being a metaphor for the natives of Vietnam being exploited by first world powers, but that is quite a reach.



The original trilogy doesn't go into the politics of the Empire. They're just the bad guys. Also, the rebels are depicted using Triumph of the Will imagery.

https://i.imgur.com/SFXpfEv.png



Corporations and businesses do not appear in the Original Trilogy in any form whatsoever.

The Original Trilogy is a sword and sorcery movie about plucky heroes fighting bad guys and evil wizards. It isn't until the prequel trilogy where we start getting a message about how fragile and corruptible democracies are, the hypocrisy of republics that ostensibly stand for freedom and justice, the danger of megacorporations, and so on.

Lucas's starwars don't end with the Original trilogy and the things I listed cover the prequels as well.

as for the original trilogy it self though lucas had this to say.

Although there are parallels between Emperor Palpatine and dictators such as Hitler and Napoleon Bonaparte, the direct inspiration for the saga’s evil antagonist was actually an American president. According to J.W. Rinzler’s “The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi,” when asked if Emperor Palpatine was a Jedi during a 1981 story conference, Lucas responded, “No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and became an imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy.”

In a 2005 interview published in the Chicago Tribune, Lucas said he originally conceived “Star Wars” as a reaction to Nixon’s presidency. “It was really about the Vietnam War, and that was the period where Nixon was trying to run for a [second] term, which got me to thinking historically about how do democracies get turned into dictatorships? Because the democracies aren’t overthrown; they’re given away.”

https://www.history.com/news/the-rea...ired-star-wars

[Ivanstone]

No one has ever said those films weren't bad. There's plenty of bad movies among the gems, just like any other form of entertainment. Do you know what the difference is though? Their creators weren't using it as a platform to promote their own personal politics. Everyone and their mother knows Ghostbusters 2 is shit and that George Lucas can't write a script to save his life. But at least they are entertaining rather than propaganda.

I don’t consider Ghostbusters 2016 to be propaganda. I consider it to be a mediocre comedy created by people who have been funnier elsewhere. In that sense Ghostbusters 2 to be even more disappointing since I know the people involved have been much funnier elsewhere.

All of Star Wars is explicitly propaganda. It’s not even subtle about it. It’s sometimes fantastic (Ep5), sometimes average (Ep8), sometimes awful (Ep1). But when it’s bad, it’s not bad because they put someone with lady parts into the movie. It’s bad because they regurgitated old ideas and somehow made it less thrilling.

Seriously your argument entirely hinges on the idea that mediocrity is a privilege that only white men get. Otherwise a horde of assholes will start shrieking “YUR POLITIKS IS RUINED MY CHILHOD”!!!

- - - Updated - - -

Corporations and businesses do not appear in the Original Trilogy in any form whatsoever.

Star Wars is very anti-fascist and a fascist society is a also capitalistic one.

Also Jabba runs a business. So does Lando.

[Dhrizzle]

I don’t consider Ghostbusters 2016 to be propaganda. I consider it to be a mediocre comedy created by people who have been funnier elsewhere. In that sense Ghostbusters 2 to be even more disappointing since I know the people involved have been much funnier elsewhere.

All of Star Wars is explicitly propaganda. It’s not even subtle about it. It’s sometimes fantastic (Ep5), sometimes average (Ep8), sometimes awful (Ep1). But when it’s bad, it’s not bad because they put someone with lady parts into the movie. It’s bad because they regurgitated old ideas and somehow made it less thrilling.

Seriously your argument entirely hinges on the idea that mediocrity is a privilege that only white men get. Otherwise a horde of assholes will start shrieking “YUR POLITIKS IS RUINED MY CHILHOD”!!!

- - - Updated - - -



Star Wars is very anti-fascist and a fascist society is a also capitalistic one.

Also Jabba runs a business. So does Lando.

When you say Episode 8 is average... do you mean 7 or 9? I'm usually quite forgiving of films and entertainment but 8 was almost painfully bad and the only movie I've seen recently that was worse is Batman v Superman.

[Ivanstone]

When you say Episode 8 is average... do you mean 7 or 9? I'm usually quite forgiving of films and entertainment but 8 was almost painfully bad and the only movie I've seen recently that was worse is Batman v Superman.

I do mean Last Jedi. Its the best of the sequel trilogy. That's not really saying much but it at least correctly advanced Kylo Ren's story. Some of its pretty dumb but whining about supporting characters doing dumb irrelevant things is pointless. Its certainly not dumb because of some hack writer jerking off on twitter.

By way of comparison, Ep3 is the best of the prequels but that's not saying much since it does dumb shit with its main characters.

[Xath]

I do mean Last Jedi. Its the best of the sequel trilogy. That's not really saying much but it at least correctly advanced Kylo Ren's story. Some of its pretty dumb but whining about supporting characters doing dumb irrelevant things is pointless. Its certainly not dumb because of some hack writer jerking off on twitter.

By way of comparison, Ep3 is the best of the prequels but that's not saying much since it does dumb shit with its main characters.

It was absolute trash? Terrible pacing and terrible in terms of fitting star wars.

[bledgor]

I do mean Last Jedi. Its the best of the sequel trilogy. That's not really saying much but it at least correctly advanced Kylo Ren's story. Some of its pretty dumb but whining about supporting characters doing dumb irrelevant things is pointless. Its certainly not dumb because of some hack writer jerking off on twitter.

By way of comparison, Ep3 is the best of the prequels but that's not saying much since it does dumb shit with its main characters.

Hot take, I think episode 8 is only surpassed by 9 as one of the worst movies I have ever seen, it was garbage that was sprinkled with shit tier jokes/gaffs, character assassination, and terrible illogical plot. If I hadn't gone with my mom whom I have seen all the Star Wars movies with I would have left the theater for both of them.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

8 at least knew what it wanted to be: anti-Star Wars, and executed its goals very well. It isn't an incoherent mess like the Abrams films. It also had striking visuals. TFA and TRoS on the other hand, aren't good in any way whatsoever. Tonal inconsistencies, plotholes galore, and incoherent storylines and character arcs. They're garbage Star Wars fanfics without an ounce of creativity. Also visually bland.

- - - Updated - - -

I think visuals are quite important, more than people give it credit for. I think people focus on story and characters (which are important) but ignore talking about aesthetics.

What made the Peter Jackson LotR movie trilogy good was the aesthetics of Alan Lee and John Howe's art brought to life on the big screen, Howard Shore's soundtrack, and Peter Jackson's cinematography and directing techniques.

FotR was the only movie that was really strong in the story department all the way through the movie. Then the party gets separated, so starting with Two Towers you're watching scenes where only a few actors are actually good and fun to watch. The Frodo plot is carried by Sean Astin and Andy Serkis, but Elijah Wood is rather meh. David Wenham as Faramir was... okay. Viggo Mortisson sucks at portraying an experienced leader ready to become king, but the rest of the actors involved in the Rohan story were good. And then the issues with the RotK movie's story have been discussed to death. But all three movies are aesthetically great and have good direction.

Aesthetics is what salvages the Hobbit movie trilogy. The story is overall a trashfire, and the only good new actors are Martin Freeman, Richard Armitage, Ken Stott, and Benedict Cumberbatch. The weightless, plastic CGI is a tremendous downgrade from the live action and miniatures of the LotR movie trilogy, but it is salvaged by having decent aesthetics. One thing I will note, is that the music of the Hobbit trilogy was utterly forgettable. Only song I can remember is the Misty Mountain song they sang in Bag End. Also, the directing and cinematography is not bad. For a man who was making up the shots and scenes as he went along, Jackson did an okay job directing the Hobbit.

I also tolerated watching GoT in spite of the bad acting and story and terrible pacing as long as I did because of the visual spectacle of the sets and the decent directing of the season finale battles. So if Rings of Power had good directing and aesthetics, I think I could at least enjoy it. Except the Rings of Power trailer looks aesthetically awful. Bland cities and landscapes. Boring, cheap plastic looking costumes and makeup. Weightless, plastic CGI monsters you aren't afraid of and aren't visually memorable. The only not-bad thing I can say about it is that shot towards the end of the elven soldiers riffing Jackson movie trilogy aesthetics. And with Howard Shore doing the soundtrack, you'd think that they would advertise good music in the trailer... but the trailer music is bad. I can only conclude that Howard Shore indeed lost his mojo after the Jackson trilogy, as either he did that crappy trailer music, or the marketing department chose that music because Howard Shore hadn't created any good tracks worth advertising.

[Ivanstone]

8 at least knew what it wanted to be: anti-Star Wars, and executed its goals very well.

8 was about a Sith Apprentice. It did its job decently. Its still not a pro-fascism movie and therefore not anti-Star Wars.

[Rennadrel]

It was absolute trash? Terrible pacing and terrible in terms of fitting star wars.

All of them are terrible. The absolute disdain for the legacy characters that have carried the success of the Star Wars franchise for 40 fucking years was so blatantly apparent in how they wrote Han, Leia and Luke. Portraying Leia as an incompetent leader, Han as an outcast who becomes a loner despite the character redemption arc he has during the original trilogy, not to mention Luke basically becoming a hypocritical old curmudgeon and a hermit, totally bastardizing the optimistic exuberance of his original character only for him to be killed off in such a shitty way. Not to mention how they Mary Sue'd the living hell out of Rey. It's pretty much impossible to get behind such a terrible cast of new characters when none of them are unique and they don't face real adversity while stomping all over the legacy characters.

[s_bushido]

Luke basically becoming a hypocritical old curmudgeon and a hermit, totally bastardizing the optimistic exuberance of his original character

I've always found this criticism of TLJ to be particularly hilarious. As if someone is supposed to be the same at 70 as he was at 20. I mean for fuck's sake, he was hardly the same guy in Jedi that he was in the first movie.

Guess it just goes to show that "fans" are terrified of change. But we already knew that, considering these arguments were had about the sequel trilogy years ago when they were being released...