Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Dhrizzle]

"...but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning them-selves and their fate in the world."

Let's start by looking past the fact that you keep spelling his name like the fruit. Do you know what the word "apocryphal" means? I suggest you look it up. Even in the notes that Christopher Tolkien compiled for The Peoples of Middle-earth there are multiple versions of this reincarnation idea and it basically boils down to "some dwarves believe...". Going by the description from the appendices (the quote I started with) there is no reason why a son of the current King Durin who exhibits the qualities of his forefather and is expected to inherit the throne wouldn't be give the name Durin as well.

This is an example of something Tolkien wrote that is almost certainly not "true" to the history of Middle-earth, it's probably a Mannish misconception due to the extremely secretive nature of Dwarves. The name "Durin" comes from a Mannish word that means "king" so it is almost entirely certain that the Dwarves would not have used that name, and Tolkien rejected the notion of the ancient father being reborn among his people. He thought it most likely that his body would have remained inviolate and his spirit returned to it on occasion.

So there is next to no support for Durin III and IV coexisting in the Legendarium, but in the tangle of mistranslations, secrets and unreliable narrators that frame the stories of Middle-earth you can see how some people might tell the story in this way and it be not much less accurate to the "true" history than the legends Tolkien wrote.

[jbombard]

No, lol. You can represent Autumn with colored leaves falling from a tree but that doesn't mean you are saying every leave falls at the exact same time in Autumn.

So if the tree is not in sync with the elves fading, what is the threat? How is that a motive for creating the rings? Kinda falls apart. Probably because they made the whole thing up without thinking it through.

[Dhrizzle]

Yup, you're a child. Even my 3yr old toddler sounds more mature than you. This sort of weird, cringey shit that you say just makes it painfully obvious that you're a fundamentally unserious person without a single worthwhile thought in your head.

It's obvious he's more of a fan of YouTube influencers than Tolkien himself which is why he continues to use "Guyladriel" as a deliberate mockery of the name "Nerwen" which is the name Tolkien used to highlight Galadriel's tendencies towards traditionally masculine pursuits.

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If it only retain 37% of your audience then its a failure. It is weird how much some of you rely on copium.

The Lord of the Rings brand is huge and the movies appealed to a very broad audience, it isn't surprising that something that ties in might attract a lot of tourists who decide it isn't for them. Amazon measure the success in the actual numbers - how many people have watched it, how many minutes are watched, how many new Prime subscribers join and then watch the series (probably the most important as this translates to direct profits.) By the standards they have set it is considered a success and they probably regard their internal metrics as more important than assessment of random internet people.

[rhorle]

So if the tree is not in sync with the elves fading, what is the threat? How is that a motive for creating the rings? Kinda falls apart. Probably because they made the whole thing up without thinking it through.

Again, it was a way to symbolize the fading of the elves. The elves didn't want to give up what they had and travel to the west. The rings were a method they sought and one that they used because of the power to stop that decay. I provided the words of JRR to show that Amazon did not make that part up.

[jbombard]

Again, it was a way to symbolize the fading of the elves. The elves didn't want to give up what they had and travel to the west. The rings were a method they sought and one that they used because of the power to stop that decay. I provided the words of JRR to show that Amazon did not make that part up.

The fading of the elves was part of their life process. The rings at best would extend the lives of 3 elves, if it even extends the lives of elves.(it only mentions rings extending the lives of humans and dwarves). Also the 3 rings for elves are made first in the show, when in actuality they are made last. (technically all the rings were made for the elves, but the 3 untouched by Sauron were made last) So seems like a lot of hoops are being jumped through just because they made up a tree, changed the order of the creation of the rings etc... etc.. and on and on.

[rhorle]

The rings at best would extend the lives of 3 elves, if it even extends the lives of elves.

No, the books clearly state that the Rings work on surrounding areas and not just those who wear them. You keep ignoring any evidence that shows you are wrong. The tree in the show would have symbolized the same thing even if the rings were created in the book order.

I'll provide the passage from the book again and maybe this time you won't ignore it.

"Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.'

Frodo bent his head. `And what do you wish? ' he said at last.

'That what should be shall be,' she answered. 'The love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the Sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever wholly be assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron: for they know him now. For the fate of Lothlórien you are not answerable, but only for the doing of your own task. Yet I could wish, were it of any avail, that the One Ring had never been wrought, or had remained for ever lost.'"

[jbombard]

No, the books clearly state that the Rings work on surrounding areas and not just those who wear them. You keep ignoring any evidence that shows you are wrong. The tree in the show would have symbolized the same thing even if the rings were created in the book order.

I'll provide the passage from the book again and maybe this time you won't ignore it.

"Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.'

First of all that quote is after the rings of power, and you are saying they knew this before they even created the rings? Secondly,

'That what should be shall be,' she answered. 'The love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the Sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever wholly be assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron: for they know him now. For the fate of Lothlórien you are not answerable, but only for the doing of your own task. Yet I could wish, were it of any avail, that the One Ring had never been wrought, or had remained for ever lost.'"

Wow you are really trying to read a lot out of what isn't in the text. Lothlórien is a place, and does not represent the whole of elven kind. Also it says Lothlórien will fade, it does not say elven kind will. "We must depart" likely refers to the elves living in Lothlórien. Also note this is one person's view of the future. And... this quote is from Lord of the Rings, are you saying they knew exactly what the rings would do even before they created them. Remember they didn't have magical mithril in the books to show them how it could heal a tree.

[rhorle]

Wow you are really trying to read a lot out of what isn't in the text. Lothlórien is a place, and does not represent the whole of elven kind. Also it says Lothlórien will fade, it does not say elven kind will. "We must depart" likely refers to the elves living in Lothlórien. Also note this is one person's view of the future. And... this quote is from Lord of the Rings, are you saying they knew exactly what the rings would do even before they created them. Remember they didn't have magical mithril in the books to show them how it could heal a tree.

Lol. I'm not even sure how you don't understand the we depart part when it literally says they must go into the west. Elves do not fade in the Undying Lands. The elves fading is a central part of Tolkien's work. It is weird that you keep trying to deny that it is an actual thing.

[jbombard]

Lol. I'm not even sure how you don't understand the we depart part when it literally says they must go into the west. Elves do not fade in the Undying Lands. The elves fading is a central part of Tolkien's work. It is weird that you keep trying to deny that it is an actual thing.

What are you even talking about here? Fading is a part of their life process. Going to the undying lands is a choice they can make. Changing the subject because you can't refute anything I said? You could just say, "yeah they made up the whole tree thing, and it doesn't make sense".

[rhorle]

What are you even talking about here? Fading is a part of their life process. Going to the undying lands is a choice they can make. Changing the subject because you can't refute anything I said? You could just say, "yeah they made up the whole tree thing, and it doesn't make sense".

I didn't change any subject. The subject has always been about the elves fading and the rings being used to delay that. The tree does make sense as a symbol of that fading that the rings delayed.

[Syegfryed]

The Lord of the Rings brand is huge and the movies appealed to a very broad audience, it isn't surprising that something that ties in might attract a lot of tourists who decide it isn't for them.

And if 63% of the people stop watching it means it was shit and most of its audience left, indeed not surprising.

Amazon measure the success in the actual numbers - how many people have watched it, how many minutes are watched, how many new Prime subscribers join and then watch the series (probably the most important as this translates to direct profits.)

And the show had bad viewership across the board where actually count that, like sambatv and nielsen.

By the standards they have set it is considered a success

you mean the company that did the shit product consider their shit product a success instead of admitting it is actually a failure for the shareholders and stain their own image?

which is why he continues to use "Guyladriel" as a deliberate mockery of the name "Nerwen" which is the name Tolkien used to highlight Galadriel's tendencies towards traditionally masculine pursuits.

No, Guyladriel is a mockery towards the character in the show who act like a guy, it had nothing to do with Nerwen, its just you projecting

[jbombard]

I didn't change any subject. The subject has always been about the elves fading and the rings being used to delay that. The tree does make sense as a symbol of that fading that the rings delayed.

Last time. The elves fade as part of their life process. They don't all fade at once, thus even when some elves fade more elves are born. It is the cycle of life. The elves were in no danger of fading as a species. The only reason they know(in the show) that the mithril delays fading of elves(also only in the show) is because of magical mithril(also once again only in the show). The tree doesn't make sense at all, how can one tree symbolize all of elven kind, they are all different and fade at different times, and new elves are also born. They had to make up all that stuff just to prop up the motivation for creating the 3 rings first(also only in the show).

That is a whole lot of stuff that only happens in the show that does not happen in the canon. Sure they have to change some stuff, but IMHO the rings of power are central to the story, screwing around with when they were created, why they were created puts them in a place where they have to keep making shit up just to keep the lie going.

[rhorle]

They don't all fade at once, thus even when some elves fade more elves are born.

The only one that is saying they do fade all at once is yourself. It isn't something I, or the show, has stated. Elves in Middle Earth were in danger of fading. Any elf that remains in Middle Earth would fade. If they went west to the undying lands they would not.

The tree symbolizing the fading that happens to elves in Middle Earth. Objects, images, whatever can symbolize a large group. Amazon didn't make up fading. They didn't make up the motivation for the rings.

[Dhrizzle]

And if 63% of the people stop watching it means it was shit and most of its audience left, indeed not surprising.

Nah, just that they were tourists and hate-watchers who moved on to more productive endeavours.

And the show had bad viewership across the board where actually count that, like sambatv and nielsen.

You mean the Nielson chart that put it at number 2 in September, or number 1 for original series (those produced by the streaming service and not acquired from other studios?) Outside numbers paint it as a success in the streaming market and Amazon's own numbers place it up there with their shows that are generally lauded as successful too.

you mean the company that did the shit product consider their shit product a success instead of admitting it is actually a failure for the shareholders and stain their own image?

Oh get out of your bubble, plenty of people are watching and enjoying the show, external and internal numbers show it is highly ranked for viewers and what parallel universe have you been living in where streaming services don't cut their losses and cancel series if they don't see them as successful enough?

No, Guyladriel is a mockery towards the character in the show who act like a guy, it had nothing to do with Nerwen, its just you projecting

Guyladriel is mocking the idea that a female might act in the ways males traditionally do. It's essential meaning is the same as Nerwen and the mockery flies in the face of what Tolkien wrote.

[Syegfryed]

Nah, just that they were tourists and hate-watchers who moved on to more productive endeavours.

That's not how it works mate, a good series retain the audience. if it below 50% it would get cancelled in most places, this one doesn't get because amazon already paid up.

Its a fact that retaining just that viewers is a major failure of a big IP like this.

You mean the Nielson chart that put it at number 2 in September, or number 1 for original series

Lets see next month how well it will do, after the massive drop after the first episodes, just like it happened in season 1

Outside numbers paint it as a success

No.. it paints as a failure, staying behind productions with lower budget and low ip power, and that was STILL counting views of season 1 as well.

I remember previous month it was losing to prison break and the secret lives of mormon wives


Seriously, a lord of the rings show, losing to a show that was released almost 20 years ago, and another show about mormon wives? this is a success? buzz off

Oh get out of your bubble, plenty of people are watching and enjoying the show,

No, you should get out of your bubble man, the show was a failure, it had lower viewers than season 1, it ended like a fart in the wind, if it was not by the hate watchers and people shitting on it it would be even in a worse state since no one would be talking about

And yes, the entire writing team but one person got fired, if the show truly was a success and people were rly watching and enjoying they would not do that. There is a saying, “You don’t change a winning team.”

Guyladriel is mocking the idea that a female might act in the ways males traditionally do.

No, Guyladriel is mocking the show character, acting like a retarded brat girlboss that has a tempest inside her.

[Eapoe]

they have done that at least a dozen times now if not significantly more, it's become the new hot thing to use to defend this show, if you feel so inclined I suggest going back several thousand posts and reading it for yourself.

saying the writers of this mess did a good job with the source material is a sick joke right? you're just saying it ironically and trying to be funny?

not only did these hacks not have anything resembling a cohesive story for the second age in the material they have rights to, but the stuff that they do actually have access to they have twisted and changed beyond any semblance of recognition to what the ACTUAL canon story of the second age is.

and since you're so hung up on PJ movie trilogy, all 3 extended editions equate to ~12 hours of film, not only would it have been unreasonable to make them any longer, but it would also have been entirely unreasonable to expect that the movies cover every single little detail of the books, and while they were rightfully lambasted at the time for the sillier changes they made, the majority were accepted as a part of the movie making process and that in the main, the story was kept cohesive and borderline kept intact to what happens in the books, and as has been explained in this thread, something you're conveniently ignoring, is that PJ didn't make the hobbit films, he was brought it at the eleventh hour to try and salvage the project after the previous team in charge of it just noped out, so trying to point the finger of blame at him and his team when they came in after everything was already written/casted/storyboarded out is extremely disingenuous.

and since this is tangentially related, the current absolute demolition of Disney in the courts could open the floodgates against this show and other high-profile shows that have done the same sorts of things for years now, and you can guarantee that execs are shitting themselves at the thought of what could happen should the Disney court cases go all the way.

Link their posts instead of just stating they’ve done it. I’ve said I haven’t seen them do it, whereas you’re stating you have, so obviously you know the posts (roughly) where this has occurred that you can provide the evidence and I can then agree that they’ve been stating it.

Did I say they did a good job with the material? I’ve said they stuck to, and adapted the source material, faithfully to what they had to work with. That doesn’t mean they displayed it well when it comes to time frames, cinematography, or dialogue.

So you admit that PJ did not adapt the books faithfully and made changes. Awesome. Good work. You’ve finally admitted the truth to yourself and everyone else.
I also mentioned things he outright changed, such as people’s motivations and backstories, as well as how some characters were treated by others.
I’m not hung up on PJ, I’m pointing out to the people who praise his films as masterpieces and faithful recreations of the books while they crap on the show as some kind of source material deviating fan fiction.

[Syegfryed]

So you admit that PJ did not adapt the books faithfully and made changes. Awesome. Good work. You’ve finally admitted the truth to yourself and everyone else.

Since you are a fan of linking posts, link a post of someone saying PJ did not made any changes.

[Dhrizzle]

That's not how it works mate, a good series retain the audience. if it below 50% it would get cancelled in most places, this one doesn't get because amazon already paid up.

Its a fact that retaining just that viewers is a major failure of a big IP like this.

Except the raw numbers show it being a success which is why you have to cleave to the percentages. There's a huge potential audience for Tolkien based media who might check it out but not all of them are going to like the series which gives it an inflated number of people likely to check it out but not stay.

No.. it paints as a failure, staying behind productions with lower budget and low ip power, and that was STILL counting views of season 1 as well.

I remember previous month it was losing to prison break and the secret lives of mormon wives

Seriously, a lord of the rings show, losing to a show that was released almost 20 years ago, and another show about mormon wives? this is a success? buzz off

You realise those shows are massively popular though, right? There's a huge market for real-life and realistic drama. You're acting like those shows were lowdown in the charts and RoP came below them when they were all in the top 5. I think your difficulty in comprehending comes from your obvious inability to distinguish between your personal opinions and objective facts.

No, Guyladriel is mocking the show character, acting like a retarded brat girlboss that has a tempest inside her.

If Tolkien's concept of Galadriel was released today you'd still be calling her a brat girlboss, the difference is he was writing her more as a Mary Sue without the Noldorin faults you're dismissing as "retarded."

[rogoth]

Link their posts instead of just stating they’ve done it. I’ve said I haven’t seen them do it, whereas you’re stating you have, so obviously you know the posts (roughly) where this has occurred that you can provide the evidence and I can then agree that they’ve been stating it.

Did I say they did a good job with the material? I’ve said they stuck to, and adapted the source material, faithfully to what they had to work with. That doesn’t mean they displayed it well when it comes to time frames, cinematography, or dialogue.

So you admit that PJ did not adapt the books faithfully and made changes. Awesome. Good work. You’ve finally admitted the truth to yourself and everyone else.
I also mentioned things he outright changed, such as people’s motivations and backstories, as well as how some characters were treated by others.
I’m not hung up on PJ, I’m pointing out to the people who praise his films as masterpieces and faithful recreations of the books while they crap on the show as some kind of source material deviating fan fiction.

you're the one who made the initial claim, the burden of proof falls on you, I'm not wasting my time and energy looking through thousands of posts to make a point on something I care very little about.

with regards to your other comment, you're just arguing semantics, the PJ trilogy was very faithful to the source material in so much as none of the three films had ANY 'real world' political bullshit shoved in them, the entire screenplay is about the work itself, I challenge you to find In any of the 12+hours of movie footage any hint of 'modern audience' pandering.

conversely, this pisspoor fan fiction excuse for television is entirely made up of 'modern audience' pandering, 'real world' political ideology and so many examples of destroying the source material it's not even funny anymore, let's not forget they even unironically took inspiration from the infamous south park episode with the whole 'they took er jerbs' scenes.

while I very much dislike some of the changes made in the PJ trilogy, I am capable of understanding why some were made, and why they made sense to the overall story of the films, and I can still enjoy the full package while still not liking specific parts, whereas with this show, it doesn't even have that small measure of understanding, not only do ALL of the changes made not make any sense from a medium perspective, they make no logical sense from a storytelling perspective, but we are expected to clap and applaud like a bunch of trained seals.

trying to use the above comment as a 'gotcha' doesn't work, it's been well established in pages past so what you think and what are, are two very different things.

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Except the raw numbers show it being a success which is why you have to cleave to the percentages. There's a huge potential audience for Tolkien based media who might check it out but not all of them are going to like the series which gives it an inflated number of people likely to check it out but not stay.



You realise those shows are massively popular though, right? There's a huge market for real-life and realistic drama. You're acting like those shows were lowdown in the charts and RoP came below them when they were all in the top 5. I think your difficulty in comprehending comes from your obvious inability to distinguish between your personal opinions and objective facts.



If Tolkien's concept of Galadriel was released today you'd still be calling her a brat girlboss, the difference is he was writing her more as a Mary Sue without the Noldorin faults you're dismissing as "retarded."

so in summation, it's a bad show, a bad product, and that it was made for a very niche, very specific audience that doesn't actually exist and will never make this project or anything like it profitable, is that what you're telling me here?

by the time of the events this shitshow is trying to present, the character Galadriel was already an ancient wise being, she was sought out for her wisdom and counsel, she was not this bratty teen that's depicted in this show, yet somehow you want people to believe that actually, she was all of these things simultaneously?

the term guyladriel suits this fanfiction fabrication of her character well because that's exactly what she tries to be.

[Syegfryed]

Except the raw numbers show it being a success

Raw numbers show:

1. Lower viewership compared to other shows with less budget and less IP power
2. Lower viewership compared to season 1
3. Abysmal low viewership retention.

Raw numbers show it is a failure.

There's a huge potential audience for Tolkien based media who might check it out but not all of them are going to like the series which gives it an inflated number of people likely to check it out but not stay.

If there is a huge audience for tolkien based media, why the viewership and retaining viewers are so low?

Its obviously because the show is garbage and people don't want to watch it nor finish it.

You realise those shows are massively popular though, right?

You realize Tolkien stuff is even more popular right? amongst the top 5 most sold/read book in the world right? behind stuff like the bible? movies that marked a generation?

Which such MASSIVE fanbase and audience, riding the popularity and success of the movies and the IP itself, why the show can't maintain not even HALF of their viewers when the movies, and even the hobbit movies, made so much money and success?

Can you still say, with a straight face, it does not have anything to do with quality of the product? please, be honest and reasonable.

If Tolkien's concept of Galadriel

The show is not using the Tolkien concept of Galadriel, bad try