Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

It is impossible for the story to be the same because Arwen does not do those things in the book but she does in the movie.

Plot is the same tho. Parts given to a diff char retains the story.

The post I referenced with sisters of different skin tones had you switching the meaning of Watsonian and Doylist. I also used that switch because I had just read your past post with that mistake.

That means i wanted the RopP creators to explain their choices. That is not what your question asked about one piece because in one piece, nami and nojiko were never blood related, no need for a doylist explanation there. Race can be swapped because in the story they are both orphans from different places eith no biological connection.

If they were passed off as natural sisters, then yes i would expect both a watsonian and doylist explanation.

[rhorle]

As an Italian, I do not feel represented at all by this. There was absolutely no way that Shakespeare envisioned that. But, due to modern politics, I need to shut my gob, because otherwise I will be forevermore be considered a racist.

Because that is a bigoted viewpoint? Adaptations change things and not everything is always a faithful adaptation. This isn't a symptom of modern times either. Romeo + Juilet from 1996 featured people of color and guns as it was the story set in a modern day suburb of Miami. It didn't even take place in Italy. Stuff isn't being changed for the sake of being changed. It is being changed because the person making the adaptation wants to change it.

Modern Cinema is not creatively bankrupt and movies have always been political. Some studios banned films that were political while others made socially conscious films (Warner Brothers was more the exception then the rule). Hollywood didn't shy away from pushing messaging if it was non-partisan though and post-WW2 things changed to definitely push political messages. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...ry-1235970524/

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Plot is the same tho. Parts given to a diff char retains the story.

In the books Elrond causes the river to flood. In the films Arwen does it. In the books Frodo is carried by the horse alone while in the film Arwen does it. The plot is not the same because Arwen was given a different role in the plot which was because of "woke/PC" as stated by Peter Jackson.

Re-read the part I qouted from that post. You were talking about human fictional characters in Middle Earth. One piece is not from Middle Earth. The context of your answer is talking about Dwarves in middle earth being derived from real world human skin tones. So either you made a mistake then or you are making one now. You can't argue that you both did and did not ask for a certain type of explanation.

Yes, from a Watsonian perspective, there is no need to explain it. But from a Doylist point of view, that of the choice to have Black skin present in the 'Human' fictional characters in Middle Earth, there would be expectations for some measure of explanation to make sense of it.

[Triceron]

Because that is a bigoted viewpoint? Adaptations change things and not everything is always a faithful adaptation. This isn't a symptom of modern times either. Romeo + Juilet from 1996 featured people of color and guns as it was the story set in a modern day suburb of Miami. It didn't even take place in Italy. Stuff isn't being changed for the sake of being changed. It is being changed because the person making the adaptation wants to change it.

Modern Cinema is not creatively bankrupt and movies have always been political. Some studios banned films that were political while others made socially conscious films (Warner Brothers was more the exception then the rule). Hollywood didn't shy away from pushing messaging if it was non-partisan though and post-WW2 things changed to definitely push political messages. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...ry-1235970524/

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In the books Elrond causes the river to flood. In the films Arwen does it. In the books Frodo is carried by the horse alone while in the film Arwen does it. The plot is not the same because Arwen was given a different role in the plot which was because of "woke/PC" as stated by Peter Jackson.

Re-read the part I qouted from that post. You were talking about human fictional characters in Middle Earth. One piece is not from Middle Earth. The context of your answer is talking about Dwarves in middle earth being derived from real world human skin tones. So either you made a mistake then or you are making one now. You can't argue that you both did and did not ask for a certain type of explanation.

Yes i expect it in nifddle earth because the natural assumption isn't that Dwarveshave random skin tones with genetics like cats. If they are, it should be established.

Even one piece merman biology is totally random but it gets ecplained in the manga.

[Fabinas]

The story is part of the world. Characters, and the powers they have, are part of the world Tolkien built. She replaced Glorfindel who was given power nearly equal to a Maiar to help on his mission in Middle Earth. One that Jackson erased. Tolkien never defined the skin tone of dwarves so Rings of Power has proper world building for an adaptation. If Tolkien didn't do it then why is it bad world building that Amazon did not?

Peter Jackson pandered to the same "modern day" stuff with Arwen and you praise him as respecting and honoring Tolkien. Strange, right?

Story is whatever happens to a person.
World is whatever surrounds a person.

There's nothing here to argue. You're wrong.

[rhorle]

Yes i expect it in nifddle earth because the natural assumption isn't that Dwarveshave random skin tones with genetics like cats. If they are, it should be established.

Tolkien didn't establish their skin tones. So there is nothing to base the assumption that dwarves are white only. The presence of different shades of skin tones in a population does not mean they have the genetics of cats. Twins of mixed race parents can have different skin tones. DC comics first black superheroine was a Nubia a fraternal twin of Wonder Woman that had black skin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_twins

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There's nothing here to argue. You're wrong.

Arwen was both conveying information about the setting and telling a story.

[Syegfryed]

Cate Blanchet is 5'7". Morfydd Clark is 5'4". Is three inches the difference between well cast and not well cast?

Yes, actually it is.

1,70m is a lot more than 1,62, that's almost 10 centimeters, and it gets even more blatantly when she is fighting or talking with people who tower over her, which is almost everyone in the show, making it a bad cast, not just for that, but for acting as well.

The scene where she grabs Adar from behind is so impractical because of the heigh difference that looks goofy

Another thing to consider is average height was different when Tolkien started his story. What is "amazonian tall" then might not be the same now.

Lmao the cope

[rhorle]

Lmao the cope

So it is cope to reference heights from Tolkien wrote his story but it isn't cope to say the story should only have skin tones of England from when he wrote his story? Do you have a consistency to what modern things you do and do not accept? Or is it just in the moment based on how you need to respond?

[Mace]

Tolkien never defined dwarven skin tone so what expectation is subverted? It is hilarious that you it is something new to hollywood. Silent films in the early 1900's were subverting expectations. Peter Jackson subverted expectations and it wasn't an issue. He made his changes because he thought Tolkien's story would work as it was written. Are you telling me that elves at Helm's Deep was superceeding Tolkien?

The diversity worked against it to be honest, and it shows they care more about the messaging than they do about preserving the authenticity of Tolkien's work. You can do both, I hear them say, and true, but when you get so obsessed with ensuring everyone is culturally diverse, you are certainly losing a lot of the essence of the franchise just to prove your point.

It ends up looking weird, and it looked weird to me. So much so the diversity works against the show, not enhances it.

Nothing wrong with having a diverse cast or different peoples and genders,, and female heroes taking dominance etc, but when it is culturally appropriate and fits the context.

It doesn't here,

#without a doubt Rings of powers would have been better without this show of diversity, as much as i like diversity, iit doesn't make sense the way they've implemented it here.

@Dhrizzle
Anyway, Season 2 was a lot more enjoyable for me, as long as I forgot it was the Lord of the Rings world. There are some good bits and some terrible bits. The lore breaking made up stuff was the worse, but you can get over that.= and still enjoy the show relatively speaking.. at least that's what I think imo.

I did like how they handled some things @Dhrizzle, but didn't like how they handled others, most of the criticism is with regards to the Lord of the Rings lore and ethos that made what some of what they id "terrible".. but once you don't care about upholding Tolkien's views, authenticity and world building, , a lot of it becomes a lot more enjoyable even with the plot, script and acting flaws, things you forgive far more easily when they are enough of other things to make you enjoy, but things you do not, when the changes to Tolkien's world are so egregious, you can't look past them.


Rhorle, you can call or think a black, gay , man, a racist, homophobe, fascist, bigot, misogynist and all the other ists , because he made this point.

And I am 100% convinced this show would have been a much bigger hit if they stuck rigidly to Tolkien's version of his world and wrote within that frame work exclusively, rather than use it as a guiding light only , so they could add their messaging.


Look for some people.. "modernising" it or converting it to their world view is pretty cool, you can have the female version, the gay version, the leftist version, the punk rock version the sci-fi version, hip -hop version, and those can all be interesting and fun, and I'm sure those into the respective ones would love that version, but if you're going to go for something to be authentically LoTR and Tolkien, you can't and shouldn't do any of that.

@Triceron season 2 was better than season 1 in many ways, - if you can turn a blind eye to the forced insertions and swaps, ignore that it's Tolkien's world, you could actually enjoy it, - if you remember though, it will spoil it, because you'd be disappointed it isn't living up to the standard of Tolkien's work in so many areas - especially the liberties with the story and time line before we even address the gender and race changes.

[rhorle]

The diversity worked against it to be honest, and it shows they care more about the messaging than they do about preserving the authenticity of Tolkien's work. You can do both, I hear them say, and true, but when you get so obsessed with ensuring everyone is culturally diverse, you are certainly losing a lot of the essence of the franchise just to prove your point.

No essence of Tolkien is lost by having people of color on the show. The "essence" was never about skin tone or racial purity. Tolkien didn't write a story of white nationalism disquised as a fantasy tale. He just wrote a story based on places that were predominately white at the time. Your view about the essence being ruined by people of color is exactly why bigotry is brought up.

Did Amazon say they were going for as authentic as possible? You are arguing that something that doesn't exist just so you can justify hating something. Remember you said different interpretations can be interesting and fun which seems to contradict you implying a Tolkien adaptation has to be authentic and nothing else. It also ignores how the Jackson adaptation is well loved and changed to be more action-centric and has "modern" insertions.

[Syegfryed]

So it is cope to reference heights from Tolkien wrote his story but it isn't cope to say the story should only have skin tones of England from when he wrote his story? Do you have a consistency to what modern things you do and do not accept? Or is it just in the moment based on how you need to respond?

Calm down to not choke on this cope man, elves are not humans, they are described as tall, you using Height of average england person in england means shit here, when elves would be way above then, exactly because they are described as taller than other races, pretty sure, also, the material say elves have more than 1.80m

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Did Amazon say they were going for as authentic as possible? .

yeah, they did LOL

[Mace]

No essence of Tolkien is lost by having people of color on the show. The "essence" was never about skin tone or racial purity. Tolkien didn't write a story of white nationalism disquised as a fantasy tale. He just wrote a story based on places that were predominately white at the time. Your view about the essence being ruined by people of color is exactly why bigotry is brought up.

That's your opinion. You don't think so, cos you're fine with the substitutions and only see them as a positive thing, but you're not thinking of Tolkien or the world but about DEi messaging - at least it comes across that way.

Did Amazon say they were going for as authentic as possible? You are arguing that something that doesn't exist just so you can justify hating something. Remember you said different interpretations can be interesting and fun which seems to contradict you implying a Tolkien adaptation has to be authentic and nothing else. It also ignores how the Jackson adaptation is well loved and changed to be more action-centric and has "modern" insertions.

You are making excuses, the point being made is where this fails for me, and my observations - whether Amazon intended to do an authentic product or not, by calling this project the Lord of the Rings The Rings of Power this is the expectation, we came to see Middle Earth and Tolkien's works again, it's his standard that was enjoyed and anticipated not theirs, so we will expect what we are advertised - whether it was the intention or not,

You make so many assumptions about anyone who criticises anything about it.. what is it to you?

Anyway, Rhorle, if you enjoyed it, what do you care that others didn't?

You trying to convert or argue them into liking it?

If I enjoyed watching it when i pretended it wasn't Tolkien, what's it to others if they didn't enjoy it or couldn't because of those reasons? How long wil lou keep insisting?

Do you work for them? Do you want veryone to love it just as you do? And are now franticalky posting and responding to everything to be their evangelist? What is it to you?

Good for you if you love it, but you can't force people to share your views or your likes.

[rhorle]

Calm down to not choke on this cope man, elves are not humans

You are the one that brought up Amazonian tall as a point of reference which means we can talk about the real world and what those terms might have meant at different points in history. Wonder Woman for example was originally 5'8".

yeah, they did LOL

Do you have a link so we can see their wording?

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That's your opinion. You don't think so, cos you're fine with the substitutions and only see them as a positive thing, but you're not thinking of Tolkien or the world but about DEi messaging - at least it comes across that way.

Is there a reason why you are not talking about what essence is lost? What about Tolkien, the person, required racial purity?

You are making excuses, the point being made is where this fails for me, and my observations - whether Amazon intended to do an authentic product or not, by calling this project the Lord of the Rings The Rings of Power this is the expectation, we came to see Middle Earth and Tolkien's works again, it's his standard that was enjoyed and anticipated not theirs, so we will expect what we are advertised - whether it was the intention or not,

You are the only one making excuses here though. You accused Amazon of not being authentic but then can't show where they said they would. Which means it falls into the adaptations that you said could be fun and interesting, right? Just being called Lord of the Rings doesn't mean it will be 100% faithful to the books. Peter Jackson was not faithful and no one complains about his work being called Lord of the Rings.

I'm not making any assumptions but taking you and the words you are saying. It is hilarious that you accuse me of working for Amazon just because I am questioning you. Is discussing on these forums now a bad thing? Do you realize that is why these forums, and this topic, exists? To discuss stuff. Why can things only be discussed if they agree with you?

[Syegfryed]

You are the one that brought up Amazonian tall as a point of reference which means we can talk about the real world and what those terms might have meant at different points in history.

And we know very well what the term meant, without you trying to twist in your own cope

And regardless what different point in history you try to look, amazonians are not morfid clark heigh

Do you have a link so we can see their wording?

lmao, the classic ""back to the book, back to the book, back to the book"

but sure keep coping

[rhorle]

lmao, the classic ""back to the book, back to the book, back to the book" but sure keep coping

So that is a no. We have to take your word for it despite your clear bias against the show. It isn't copium to ask you to prove what you say.

[Eapoe]

The diversity worked against it to be honest, and it shows they care more about the messaging than they do about preserving the authenticity of Tolkien's work. You can do both, I hear them say, and true, but when you get so obsessed with ensuring everyone is culturally diverse, you are certainly losing a lot of the essence of the franchise just to prove your point.

It ends up looking weird, and it looked weird to me. So much so the diversity works against the show, not enhances it.

Nothing wrong with having a diverse cast or different peoples and genders,, and female heroes taking dominance etc, but when it is culturally appropriate and fits the context.

It doesn't here,

#without a doubt Rings of powers would have been better without this show of diversity, as much as i like diversity, iit doesn't make sense the way they've implemented it here.

@Dhrizzle
Anyway, Season 2 was a lot more enjoyable for me, as long as I forgot it was the Lord of the Rings world. There are some good bits and some terrible bits. The lore breaking made up stuff was the worse, but you can get over that.= and still enjoy the show relatively speaking.. at least that's what I think imo.

I did like how they handled some things @Dhrizzle, but didn't like how they handled others, most of the criticism is with regards to the Lord of the Rings lore and ethos that made what some of what they id "terrible".. but once you don't care about upholding Tolkien's views, authenticity and world building, , a lot of it becomes a lot more enjoyable even with the plot, script and acting flaws, things you forgive far more easily when they are enough of other things to make you enjoy, but things you do not, when the changes to Tolkien's world are so egregious, you can't look past them.


Rhorle, you can call or think a black, gay , man, a racist, homophobe, fascist, bigot, misogynist and all the other ists , because he made this point.

And I am 100% convinced this show would have been a much bigger hit if they stuck rigidly to Tolkien's version of his world and wrote within that frame work exclusively, rather than use it as a guiding light only , so they could add their messaging.


Look for some people.. "modernising" it or converting it to their world view is pretty cool, you can have the female version, the gay version, the leftist version, the punk rock version the sci-fi version, hip -hop version, and those can all be interesting and fun, and I'm sure those into the respective ones would love that version, but if you're going to go for something to be authentically LoTR and Tolkien, you can't and shouldn't do any of that.

@Triceron season 2 was better than season 1 in many ways, - if you can turn a blind eye to the forced insertions and swaps, ignore that it's Tolkien's world, you could actually enjoy it, - if you remember though, it will spoil it, because you'd be disappointed it isn't living up to the standard of Tolkien's work in so many areas - especially the liberties with the story and time line before we even address the gender and race changes.

So, just to be clear, you’re okay with a gay version of LotR, a black version of LotR, etc, as long as they stay in their lane? There can be no diversity in YOUR LotR?
Also, just so we’re on the same page, can you please link me the specific parts in Tolkien’s work where he states his entire world is a white washed straights only fantasy land?

[Syegfryed]

So that is a no. We have to take your word for it despite your clear bias against the show. It isn't copium to ask you to prove what you say.

Thats literally a quote from the showrunners saying they would be back to the book, meaning yes, they said they went "authentic as possible"

We know they didn't mean that, but they straight up said it

They even said season 2 would be more faithful, which was all horse shit

but go on, cope more

[rhorle]

Thats literally a quote from the showrunners saying they would be back to the book, meaning yes, they said they went "authentic as possible"

They didn't literally say it if you have to interpret their meaning. Again, provide what they said. Saying something will be more faithful doesn't mean the entire thing will be book accurate. 10% would be more than 5%.

[rogoth]

Calm down to not choke on this cope man, elves are not humans, they are described as tall, you using Height of average england person in england means shit here, when elves would be way above then, exactly because they are described as taller than other races, pretty sure, also, the material say elves have more than 1.80m

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yeah, they did LOL

just for some context of heights in Middle Earth, the men of Numenor were roughly about 6'2"-6'4" on average, with Elendil THE TALL being over 7 feet in height, none of this is shown in the show, as a point of reference all elves in middle earth were on average 6'5"-6'6", the watered down blood of regular men would have seen an average height of roughly 5'8"-5'10".

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They didn't literally say it if you have to interpret their meaning. Again, provide what they said. Saying something will be more faithful doesn't mean the entire thing will be book accurate. 10% would be more than 5%.

are you having some memory issues? This was all shown in both the pre-release shit they threw out, not to mention the various interviews they did talking about they would 'go back to the books', are you being ignorant on purpose or do you genuinely not remember this whole farce?

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So, just to be clear, you’re okay with a gay version of LotR, a black version of LotR, etc, as long as they stay in their lane? There can be no diversity in YOUR LotR?
Also, just so we’re on the same page, can you please link me the specific parts in Tolkien’s work where he states his entire world is a white washed straights only fantasy land?

not only was Tolkien a devout catholic, but during his life homosexuality was illegal, so there's a DOUBLE FUCKING WHAMMY of 'straights only' for you, not to mention that as a direct result of his faith, he believed in the union of man and woman, meaning that there would never be, and should never be ANY same-sex couples in his works/world.

as for your other shit, the person you're quoting is a gay black man, he was making the point that if you want to pander to a specific group of people with a different version of a piece of work, you can do that, but it's no longer authentically related to the original creator of that work, you really need to get your head out of your arse because you're suffocating in there.

[Eapoe]

just for some context of heights in Middle Earth, the men of Numenor were roughly about 6'2"-6'4" on average, with Elendil THE TALL being over 7 feet in height, none of this is shown in the show, as a point of reference all elves in middle earth were on average 6'5"-6'6", the watered down blood of regular men would have seen an average height of roughly 5'8"-5'10".

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are you having some memory issues? This was all shown in both the pre-release shit they threw out, not to mention the various interviews they did talking about they would 'go back to the books', are you being ignorant on purpose or do you genuinely not remember this whole farce?

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not only was Tolkien a devout catholic, but during his life homosexuality was illegal, so there's a DOUBLE FUCKING WHAMMY of 'straights only' for you, not to mention that as a direct result of his faith, he believed in the union of man and woman, meaning that there would never be, and should never be ANY same-sex couples in his works/world.

as for your other shit, the person you're quoting is a gay black man, he was making the point that if you want to pander to a specific group of people with a different version of a piece of work, you can do that, but it's no longer authentically related to the original creator of that work, you really need to get your head out of your arse because you're suffocating in there.

So is the pope.
Again, link me a post where The Hobbit, LotR, or the Silmarillon was a straights only world, or that they can not be anywhere in it. Even as a burn in hell, sinful, and evil act, that you believe Tolkien would adhere to.

I don’t care if they’re gay, black, white, straight, Asian, Hispanic, trans, pan, or anything else that exists. They literally stated that they are fine with something/someone existing if it/they stay out of what they enjoy.
RoP isn’t doing a different version in the vein of The Wiz. It is adapting directly from Tolkien and just happened to include PoC, and the fact that some people can’t wrap their head around someone that isn’t white exists is hilarious.

[rhorle]

are you having some memory issues? This was all shown in both the pre-release shit they threw out, not to mention the various interviews they did talking about they would 'go back to the books', are you being ignorant on purpose or do you genuinely not remember this whole farce?

With your great memory you should have no problem providing a link, right? Lets see what they actually said and not what you and others think they said.

not only was Tolkien a devout catholic, but during his life homosexuality was illegal, so there's a DOUBLE FUCKING WHAMMY of 'straights only' for you, not to mention that as a direct result of his faith, he believed in the union of man and woman, meaning that there would never be, and should never be ANY same-sex couples in his works/world.

Tolkien did essentially imply that other races think dwarves have no females. Jackson also used that notion to basically say dwarven males are attracted to dwarven males.

Gimli: It’s true you don’t see many dwarf women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for dwarf men.
Aragorn: [whispering] It’s the beards.
Gimli: And this in turn has given rise to the belief that there are no dwarf women, and that dwarves just spring out of holes in the ground!