1. #1141
    Ah, we're talking about comics yet again?

    American comic books begin to collapse in the 90s due to genrefication. Comics became about capeshit, and they were all soap operas following the same heroes regurgitated over and over again for the past half century. Thus, comics go from being mainstream to being niche.

    X-Men was cancelled for low sales in 1969, but it was still selling almost 250,000 copies per issue, and X-men was on the newstand at Wallgreens. Compare that today's comic sales, where Marvel and DC are struggling to sell even 5,000 copies a month, sold in a comicbook store that is a 40 minute drive away from your house run by a fat smelly guy who knows way too much about them, and the comics are made by unlikeable narcissists.



    Anime overtook over American comics and cartoons because Americans renounced their ability to tell good stories about 40 years ago. It took anime and manga a long time of building up a word of mouth reputation before Americans realized that they had a choice to consume stuff that wasn't garbage.

    The manga industry also puts out high quality art in a timely manner. Meanwhile, American comics don't even look good, and you barely get 40 pages every 2 months, and the plot moves at a snails pace. *Snooooore*

    Japanese Manga is extremely popular because it serves multiple markets. You have highschool slice of life. You have fetish manga. You have epic shounen adventure stories. You have sword and sorcery manga like Berserk. You have romantic comedies. You certainly don't see any romance comics coming out in America. Marvel is stuck in a genre that died 30 years ago. This is why American indie kickstarters that promise YET ANOTHER SUPERHERO COMIC struggle so much, and indie kickstarters that don't fill that hole are so successful.

    The hate for manga in the West comes from the West's jealously. The West is upset that their comics haven't been mainstream since the 90's. Eastern European comics also exist, but they didn't have the decades of word of mouth built up like manga did.

    You can't have stakes in American comics when the story is going to be rebooted in a couple years or so. The stories aren't as interesting when they are variations of the same story (Batman protecting Gotham from the Joker, interacts with Gordon, etc etc). Notice how in Japanese manga, you don't have stories that go on for forever. You don't really have sequel mangas or spinoff mangas or alternate continuity reboots. You have the one story, with a beginning, middle, and end, and that's it. That's the manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    while yes the big bucks come from else where the comic industry has been over a billion a year since 2015 and has been on the rise since every year but 2017 since atleast 2012.

    -snip-
    This does not account for inflation. Sure, the American comics business might be making more money today than it was 10 years ago, but it is still dwarfed by comics industry of eld.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Imo, comics books died the death it deserved when it imploded in the late 90s. Breevort (editor) said the thing that saved them later was creating controversial shit that pissed the readership off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It wasn't a billion dollar industry back then. Like I said...imploded. Marvel went bankrupt in '96.
    Yup. When Jim Shooter was fired and Marvel started turning into soap opera crap, that was the death knell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Not at all true. The comic implosion happened because of poor business practices. Reading quality wasn’t relevant. Every time a comic makes someone angry, someone else is delighted by it. A fair chunk of the business is driven by people who like their monthly stories and want to keep what they have after they read it. Combine that with the North American industry being somewhat more diverse in its offerings and a variety of Japanese and European comics being more readily available, we have an industry that’s at least functional. It’s tough to compete in a streaming universe but some people just like the format.
    In addition to the abysmal quality of Marvel comics, awful distribution practices also killed the business. Customers buying a comic does not result in that comic being renewed to continue/prevent it from being cancelled. The fate of the line is decided before it even goes on sale. Readers don't know what's coming out until it's already out and that pre-release period is when the business decides whether or not to axe a line.

  2. #1142
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Not at all true. The comic implosion happened because of poor business practices. Reading quality wasn’t relevant. Every time a comic makes someone angry, someone else is delighted by it. A fair chunk of the business is driven by people who like their monthly stories and want to keep what they have after they read it. Combine that with the North American industry being somewhat more diverse in its offerings and a variety of Japanese and European comics being more readily available, we have an industry that’s at least functional. It’s tough to compete in a streaming universe but some people just like the format.

    They've only had to go the controversial route in comic books relatively recently. The quote is from a decade ago. (After the late 80s...they tried to hold on, but the 90s became a hole sucking away interest.. after years collecting comics I myself quit, only sporadically poring through an occasional issue in a book store of all places.

  3. #1143
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Anime overtook over American comics and cartoons because Americans renounced their ability to tell good stories about 40 years ago. It took anime and manga a long time of building up a word of mouth reputation before Americans realized that they had a choice to consume stuff that wasn't garbage.
    While yes western comic's have been over taken by manga globally it's important to note that this is solely because manga sells well in the east and not because westerners prefer it over comics.

    magna sales in the west make up less then 20% of comic industry and notably sell less then floppies alone which are only a faction of the industry.

    here are the relevent link's for any one who is curios or if you just want to look at charts and not read through stuff my post here has charts for 2020 that I'm not gonna clog this thread up with.

    https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...time-high-2020
    https://www.comichron.com/yearlycomi...ustrywide.html



    This does not account for inflation. Sure, the American comics business might be making more money today than it was 10 years ago, but it is still dwarfed by comics industry of eld.
    Sure they make less then at there peak but that's kinda irreverent to them being a billion dollar industry that has been growing almost none stop since the 90's crash.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #1144
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Yup. When Jim Shooter was fired and Marvel started turning into soap opera crap, that was the death knell.
    Oh...where's the like button?
    The x-men...used to be my favorite...but when Shooter got kicked to the curb in the late 80s they turned that title into garbage. And worse, they expanded it..."X-Factor" wtf..?

  5. #1145
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    comics are a billion dollar industry if they make that much out of making people mad then Lotr and every other part of "nerd culture" should likely aim for the same.
    I doubt any studio was ever even close to making that much money.

    Hell, sadly even IDW is losing liscences and continuing to lose money fiscally every year.

  6. #1146
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Ah, we're talking about comics yet again?

    American comic books begin to collapse in the 90s due to genrefication. Comics became about capeshit, and they were all soap operas following the same heroes regurgitated over and over again for the past half century. Thus, comics go from being mainstream to being niche.

    X-Men was cancelled for low sales in 1969, but it was still selling almost 250,000 copies per issue, and X-men was on the newstand at Wallgreens. Compare that today's comic sales, where Marvel and DC are struggling to sell even 5,000 copies a month, sold in a comicbook store that is a 40 minute drive away from your house run by a fat smelly guy who knows way too much about them, and the comics are made by unlikeable narcissists.
    American comics were mostly about superheroes since the sixties. There were always some diversity such as the Undergrounds* but the direct market allowed people to start experimenting. TMNT, for example, is arguably a superhero comic but only in the same way Dragonball is. It took awhile but eventually we started to see well-produced comics that aren't about super heroes.

    Furthermore, I'm not overweight and I bath daily. I do know a lot about comics though. Much more than you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Yup. When Jim Shooter was fired and Marvel started turning into soap opera crap, that was the death knell.
    Jim Shooter loved soap opera super hero crap. For every good comic produced under his tenure there were 5-10 shitty ones. Jim Shooter was an effective EIC because he was a disciplined business man. He was still producing dozens of comics every month and its not easy to keep that quality consistently high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The fate of the line is decided before it even goes on sale. Readers don't know what's coming out until it's already out and that pre-release period is when the business decides whether or not to axe a line.
    Final orders for a comic are about 3-4 weeks before release. Solicitation details are known much further in advance. Most comics are cancelled because of poor sales after release.


    *I bought the ZAP Comix slipcase a couple months ago. Watching the Freak Brothers cartoon made me nostalgic. Its really nice. Every serious comic fan should get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post

    They've only had to go the controversial route in comic books relatively recently. The quote is from a decade ago. (After the late 80s...they tried to hold on, but the 90s became a hole sucking away interest.. after years collecting comics I myself quit, only sporadically poring through an occasional issue in a book store of all places.
    There are plenty of people who love nineties marvel comics. I know people who actually like Rob Liefeld. Controversy is relative. I have two female customers who are big Gambit fans and I clown both of them for liking a shitty character. Gambit made me stop reading the X-men but it won't stop me from selling his comics. Pick any controversial story and you won't have to dig too hard to find someone who likes it.

    Getting back on subject here with LotR, some people are angry about "changes" but some people want to see these "changes". Personally, I'm ambivalent because I'm old, crusty and patient. Also I get to mock snowflakes who are butthurt about something they haven't even seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Hell, sadly even IDW is losing liscences and continuing to lose money fiscally every year.
    IDW lacks diversity in their offers. They mostly do a good job of peddling licensed material but licenses cost money and that hurts the bottom line. Dark Horse always had a healthy combination of licensed products, European and Japanese comics, original content and collectibles. They're relatively more stable. Same with Boom.

  7. #1147
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    There are plenty of people who love nineties marvel comics. I know people who actually like Rob Liefeld. Controversy is relative.
    So is good taste;



    Those "plenty of people" weren't enough to keep Marvel from bankruptcy.

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    So is good taste;



    Those "plenty of people" weren't enough to keep Marvel from bankruptcy.
    Its like a child used a fridge as the base for his chest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  9. #1149
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polyxo View Post
    What are we supposed to be mad about?
    Well, you know, they're brown.

    *sigh*
    Tiriél US-Stormrage

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  10. #1150
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    So is good taste;

    Those "plenty of people" weren't enough to keep Marvel from bankruptcy.
    I didn't say I understood why people like Liefeld. I only know that they do. Most of those early Image guys I find baffling nowadays.

    Let's consider an actual good comic produced in the nineties: The Sandman. Was that good enough to keep the industry from crashing? There were tonnes of great stuff produced in the 90s.

    Lots of things weren't great back then but comic quality is simply relative. I don't like 90s Marvel but its failures were business related.

  11. #1151
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    while yes the big bucks come from else where the comic industry has been over a billion a year since 2015 and has been on the rise since every year but 2017 since atleast 2012.


    https://www.comichron.com/yearlycomi...ustrywide.html
    And what share of that is manga and related products?
    "It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks, and become one with all the people."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Ethics for Tomorrow"

  12. #1152
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Let's consider an actual good comic produced in the nineties: The Sandman.
    I never mentioned DC. And I certainly didn't collect as many of those or any other publisher.

  13. #1153
    I guess this is now a general discussion thread about anything you like...

  14. #1154
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    I guess this is now a general discussion thread about anything you like...
    It's a change of pace from all the racism talk.
    Just a "wait and see" until September.

  15. #1155
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    I guess this is now a general discussion thread about anything you like...
    Sometimes you just fall down the analogy hole. We got two separate threads were we have people whining about conspiracies ruining their entertainment.

  16. #1156
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    And what share of that is manga and related products?
    about 200M slightly less then what floppies made alone.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #1157
    ...fine.
    I'm watching "the Two Towers" extended version...just because.

  18. #1158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    ...fine.
    I'm watching "the Two Towers" extended version...just because.

    Extended Edition is the only way I watch LotR now
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

  19. #1159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Extended Edition is the only way I watch LotR now
    Makes me laugh that the original versions of the films would be deemed too long by today's cinema goers since they are over 2.5 hours. God forbid the extended versions actually were what released in theaters initially.

  20. #1160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Makes me laugh that the original versions of the films would be deemed too long by today's cinema goers since they are over 2.5 hours.
    Maybe if they were in the cinema a full extended edition may still be, but at home I feel happy. One disc is like 1 movie, basically with all the extended editions together its basically 6 movies lol
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

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