Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[eschatological]

When it comes to stuff like Tolkien, a character's story tends to be very tied to their race.



I had the exact same thoughts. If they wanted diversity so much, well, it already existed in the books. It might be a plausible idea for the heroes to run into some Haradrim or Easterling rebels fleeing from their brethren who still serve evil. But they had to start blackfacing Dwarves and Elves instead.

You literally contradicted your first sentence with your next paragraph. If the Haradrim/Easterlings were of two minds on whether or not to serve Sauron - then their story isn't tied to their race.

The Elves weren't a monolith, neither were the Dwarves, obviously neither were any human kingdom.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When it comes to stuff like Tolkien, a character's story tends to be very tied to their race.

Actual races=/= fantasy races.

in this context can you name any instances where a dwarf or elf's story is tied to them being white?

[Biomega]

It's more species than race, really.

Species would be something like elf, dwarf, human, etc.

Whereas race would be more akin to something like elves being divided into Noldor, Teleri, Vanyar, etc. which is more akin to something like real-world skin colors and phenotypes (though of course those tend to be a lot more fuzzy around the borders than "races" in fantasy works).

[Orby]

Actual races=/= fantasy races.

in this context can you name any instances where a dwarf or elf's story is tied to them being white?

Isn't fantasy races specifically species? Like a human to an orc, or orc to an elf, that's species isn't it? a human to a different human, orc to a different orc, and elf to a different elf, thats race. Doesn't race revolve around something the same as you but divided into culture and skin colour. We don't call bears a different race to us because they are not human!

Not sure where this racial thing came from when regarding what is technically species in fantasy. If aliens landed on earth are they a race? or a species? Its the same thing in fantasy... They really ned to change that.

It's more species than race, really.

Species would be something like elf, dwarf, human, etc.

Whereas race would be more akin to something like elves being divided into Noldor, Teleri, Vanyar, etc. which is more akin to something like real-world skin colors and phenotypes (though of course those tend to be a lot more fuzzy around the borders than "races" in fantasy works).

beat me to it :P

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Isn't fantasy races specifically species? Like a human to an orc, or orc to an elf, that's species isn't it? a human to a different human, orc to a different orc, and elf to a different elf, thats race. Doesn't race revolve around something the same as you but divided into culture and skin colour. We don't call bears a different race to us because they are not human!

Not sure where this racial thing came from when regarding what is technically species in fantasy. If aliens landed on earth are they a race? or a species? Its the same thing in fantasy... They really ned to change that.



beat me to it :P

Ya it is all different species though in the context of fantasy the two words are used interchangeably.

As far as the chains of rely go o believe it started with some one asking what if shaft was remade but white and my answer was as long as there race (real race not species) isn’t tires to there story I wouldn’t care and as far as LoTR goes dwarfs and elfs don’t have any story’s tied to race that would be impacted by a black or any other non whitemane actor playing them.

[Fantomen]

I wouldn’t care and as far as LoTR goes dwarfs and elfs don’t have any story’s tied to race that would be impacted by a black or any other non whitemane actor playing them.

Becuse that will involve a massive immigration and later emigration (alternative genocide) Tolkin did not wrote about. Sure you can change it, but then you can do a new ip like Elfquest, that have dark/brown skinned elfs.

How will you react if a story about native americans (pre-columbus) have black peopel in it? Especially if the story was a attempt to re-create the history myths that was lost during the colonization of america?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Becuse that will involve a massive immigration and later emigration (alternative genocide) Tolkin did not wrote about. Sure you can change it, but then you can do a new ip like Elfquest, that have dark/brown skinned elfs.

How will you react if a story about native americans (pre-columbus) have black peopel in it? Especially if the story was a attempt to re-create the history myths that was lost during the colonization of america?

It wouldn't require either of those things either as a stand alone product or a actual cannon tie in to the LoTR movies as the movies don't show dawrf or elf civilization at large outside of like one elf army.

also Tolkin didn't wire any of this that's the whole point of the show they don't have the rights to most of the stuff tolken wrote so there making something with what little they do have.

and ya I have no problem if a show about pre colonial native myths had black people in it unless there going for super strict historical accuracy based on real myths/legends passed down, something Lotr's very much isn't.

[bledgor]

I love how people celebrate Hollywood bastardizing stories to fit current political agenda instead of pushing them to create new stories, sad state of affairs.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I love how people celebrate Hollywood bastardizing stories to fit current political agenda instead of pushing them to create new stories, sad state of affairs.

Ignoring that this is a new story just set in a existing universe, If black people simply existing in roles that have nothing to do with race is bastardizing stories to you that kind of says alot.

[bledgor]

Ignoring that this is a new story just set in a existing universe, If black people simply existing in roles that have nothing to do with race is bastardizing stories to you that kind of says alot.

New story set in a universe with rules, there is a reason they had a COMPLETELY different script while Christopher Tolkein was alive and completely revamped it upon his death. I also never said anything about black people, seems racism is the only thing on your mind, says a lot about you.

Though the fact you think giving black people token roles in a setting they weren't originally in shows you are completely okay with it, pretty racist to me. Also if Hollywood really gave a shit about diversity and representation, they should have less blacks and more Hispanics, and Asians, black people tend to be over represented in movies.

[bledgor]

Do we really need more of this whinging from fragile people when it's already been done to death in so many other threads and this one? Just don't fucking watch it when it finally comes out, months from now.

Lol, being upset with people shitting on another mans legacy isn't fragile, demanding changes in a story because of your beliefs is fragile. If you don't like the conversation feel free to not read/post/engage on the thread. YOU CHOOSE to be here, don't bitch about it.

[bledgor]

You choose to bitch and moan on a dead man's behalf.

Your right, I am here on behalf of a war hero and the most renowned fantasy author ever, while people destroy the world he built, because its fucking disgusting how up their own asses people are that they think they know best, and they need to change everything. Its fucking hubris and arrogance on an unmatched scale.

Also, while I'm here, you may not have explicitly stated anything to do with race originally, but you quite clearly were talking about that specific "political agenda." Especially when you got so defensive in your next post and had to try project the racism onto others lol

Not projecting, they are projecting. I have more issues with warrior Glardrial and the lack of Celebron which I have said in this thread. I do point out the other shit they have needlessly injected into the show, because might as well point out bullshit, especially when Hollywood wants to pretend they care when really its tokenism at its worst.

But yeah, we're done. There is a reason I don't venture into this part of the forum much, because it's populated by fragile children like you crying over anything that might have changed in some bit of media instead of just enjoying it, or heaven forbid, just not engaging with it if it upsets you so much. Nothing at all to do with me disliking a conversation, there is no conversation. It's just impotent whining over nothing that's been done a million times before.

"YOU CHOOSE to be here, don't bitch about" indeed.

I could bother to respond to this, but honestly you aren't worth the brain cells. Bye bye.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

New story set in a universe with rules, there is a reason they had a COMPLETELY different script while Christopher Tolkein was alive and completely revamped it upon his death. I also never said anything about black people, seems racism is the only thing on your mind, says a lot about you.

Though the fact you think giving black people token roles in a setting they weren't originally in shows you are completely okay with it, pretty racist to me. Also if Hollywood really gave a shit about diversity and representation, they should have less blacks and more Hispanics, and Asians, black people tend to be over represented in movies.

It's already been pointed out in this thread that none of Tolkein's rule's are being broken by atleast having black people as dwarfs as they never had a stated skin color, and ya you don't need to say it when the thread gets bumped and that was the topic and you just happen to jump in with your comment, you can pretend it's not what you meant but every one knows it is.

and again there are no roles not originally in the show as this is completely new series not based on any thing other then the universe it self, but ya I'm all for giving black people roles Id also be all for increasing those roles to what never number you deem need for you not to count them as token but I doubt you'd agree on that. Same thing with Hispanics and Asian's I'm all for giving them representation though again I bet you'd disagree if they actually put some in Lotr.

[Syegfryed]

I love how people celebrate Hollywood bastardizing stories to fit current political agenda instead of pushing them to create new stories, sad state of affairs.

Which is funny, it feels to me people are rly in need to something new and fresh in the fantasy genre, they could have done this story, this show as a standalone original universe with their own set of rules since apparently, the only thing they are using is the name and the characters(and not the lore, at all).

If its rly good, it would pay off

[Sinured]

Your right, I am here on behalf of a war hero and the most renowned fantasy author ever, while people destroy the world he built, because its fucking disgusting how up their own asses people are that they think they know best, and they need to change everything. Its fucking hubris and arrogance on an unmatched scale.



Not projecting, they are projecting. I have more issues with warrior Glardrial and the lack of Celebron which I have said in this thread. I do point out the other shit they have needlessly injected into the show, because might as well point out bullshit, especially when Hollywood wants to pretend they care when really its tokenism at its worst.



I could bother to respond to this, but honestly you aren't worth the brain cells. Bye bye.

I agree with you 100%.
Woke people destroy everything they touch.
Havent watched ghetto elfes gypsy mage witcher.
will not watch this.

and yes, i would not watch a movie about Nubians if you would only get white people for it.
I like my shit close to the source, no bbc style:"half the romans where black, and black centurions and did you know every one was black in the past, and dont forget the trans kaisers and shieeet".

Infracted.

[bledgor]

Which is funny, it feels to me people are rly in need to something new and fresh in the fantasy genre, they could have done this story, this show as a standalone original universe with their own set of rules since apparently, the only thing they are using is the name and the characters(and not the lore, at all).

If its rly good, it would pay off

The issue they never want to properly adapt the good series that haven't been adapted before, they have to make all these changes that degrade the product from the story that people love into something not near as good. If they instead just stayed more true the original material, we would have a lot of shows that people love. There is a reason in the past 10 or so years a decent amount of people have gone from craving Hollywood to adapt whatever story they love to fearing it.

I also find it so odd that this is second series that Amazon has taken with a rich universe (Wheel of time being the other) and given over to a basically nobody producer, like why didn't they get someone with great experience in the field, who had proven themselves? It is so sad, because veteran hands could have at least turned WoT from a shitshow into something tolerable.

[Othraerir]

as long as azamong make bag from this they're not gonna care how much they butcher the world.

[Syegfryed]

The issue they never want to properly adapt the good series that haven't been adapted before, they have to make all these changes that degrade the product from the story that people love into something not near as good. If they instead just stayed more true the original material, we would have a lot of shows that people love. There is a reason in the past 10 or so years a decent amount of people have gone from craving Hollywood to adapt whatever story they love to fearing it.

I also find it so odd that this is second series that Amazon has taken with a rich universe (Wheel of time being the other) and given over to a basically nobody producer, like why didn't they get someone with great experience in the field, who had proven themselves? It is so sad, because veteran hands could have at least turned WoT from a shitshow into something tolerable.

From what i see, most of those problems are hubris, and people not want to go far away from the "hollywood formula".

Hubris, because 1.They think they can make it better, 2.They think the original is not good enough, 3. They don't like the original/how the original is

And they part from a presupposition/assumption, that a movie or a show will only make success/people if they follow a set of pre-determined rules/formula, so they will either have the cliches or it will go against the cliche, both going against the original. Like, always make some cheesy romantic pair/love interest when the story doesn't have it.

Im not a 100% purist that think any change, regardless, is a great sin, some changes need to happen sure, but some shit you can't excuse, i still have nightmares of how they ruined eragon, sure isn't a masterpiece, but what they did should be a crime.

[eschatological]

Hi. Do not derail this thread into discussion of perceived political or social agendas. As always, it is offtopic and considering derailing for this subforum. This is another in a series of warnings that stretch across this subforum, so learn the rules of this subforum. If you want to discuss these topics - take it to GenOT.

[Rennadrel]

Which is funny, it feels to me people are rly in need to something new and fresh in the fantasy genre, they could have done this story, this show as a standalone original universe with their own set of rules since apparently, the only thing they are using is the name and the characters(and not the lore, at all).

If its rly good, it would pay off

They didn't have the rights to any of the lore, that is why the show is going to be crap. It's fanfiction rather than something actually based in Tolkien's world. Also, Middle Earth itself is based entirely on British folklore and Anglo Saxon history, which goes entirely against Amazon Studios own diversity agenda, which is why the series isn't going to be faithful to Tolkien's work. I'd rather them do something unique and new rather than try and adapt someone else's work with their own worldview on it because that does a disservice to the creator. And yes, I probably would watch something that is new and fresh so long as the characters and writing are good. I'm not going to watch an adaptation that doesn't at all abide by even the basic framework that the creator set out originally.