Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

New story set in a universe with rules, there is a reason they had a COMPLETELY different script while Christopher Tolkein was alive and completely revamped it upon his death. I also never said anything about black people, seems racism is the only thing on your mind, says a lot about you.

Though the fact you think giving black people token roles in a setting they weren't originally in shows you are completely okay with it, pretty racist to me. Also if Hollywood really gave a shit about diversity and representation, they should have less blacks and more Hispanics, and Asians, black people tend to be over represented in movies.

It's already been pointed out in this thread that none of Tolkein's rule's are being broken by atleast having black people as dwarfs as they never had a stated skin color, and ya you don't need to say it when the thread gets bumped and that was the topic and you just happen to jump in with your comment, you can pretend it's not what you meant but every one knows it is.

and again there are no roles not originally in the show as this is completely new series not based on any thing other then the universe it self, but ya I'm all for giving black people roles Id also be all for increasing those roles to what never number you deem need for you not to count them as token but I doubt you'd agree on that. Same thing with Hispanics and Asian's I'm all for giving them representation though again I bet you'd disagree if they actually put some in Lotr.

[Syegfryed]

I love how people celebrate Hollywood bastardizing stories to fit current political agenda instead of pushing them to create new stories, sad state of affairs.

Which is funny, it feels to me people are rly in need to something new and fresh in the fantasy genre, they could have done this story, this show as a standalone original universe with their own set of rules since apparently, the only thing they are using is the name and the characters(and not the lore, at all).

If its rly good, it would pay off

[Sinured]

Your right, I am here on behalf of a war hero and the most renowned fantasy author ever, while people destroy the world he built, because its fucking disgusting how up their own asses people are that they think they know best, and they need to change everything. Its fucking hubris and arrogance on an unmatched scale.



Not projecting, they are projecting. I have more issues with warrior Glardrial and the lack of Celebron which I have said in this thread. I do point out the other shit they have needlessly injected into the show, because might as well point out bullshit, especially when Hollywood wants to pretend they care when really its tokenism at its worst.



I could bother to respond to this, but honestly you aren't worth the brain cells. Bye bye.

I agree with you 100%.
Woke people destroy everything they touch.
Havent watched ghetto elfes gypsy mage witcher.
will not watch this.

and yes, i would not watch a movie about Nubians if you would only get white people for it.
I like my shit close to the source, no bbc style:"half the romans where black, and black centurions and did you know every one was black in the past, and dont forget the trans kaisers and shieeet".

Infracted.

[bledgor]

Which is funny, it feels to me people are rly in need to something new and fresh in the fantasy genre, they could have done this story, this show as a standalone original universe with their own set of rules since apparently, the only thing they are using is the name and the characters(and not the lore, at all).

If its rly good, it would pay off

The issue they never want to properly adapt the good series that haven't been adapted before, they have to make all these changes that degrade the product from the story that people love into something not near as good. If they instead just stayed more true the original material, we would have a lot of shows that people love. There is a reason in the past 10 or so years a decent amount of people have gone from craving Hollywood to adapt whatever story they love to fearing it.

I also find it so odd that this is second series that Amazon has taken with a rich universe (Wheel of time being the other) and given over to a basically nobody producer, like why didn't they get someone with great experience in the field, who had proven themselves? It is so sad, because veteran hands could have at least turned WoT from a shitshow into something tolerable.

[Othraerir]

as long as azamong make bag from this they're not gonna care how much they butcher the world.

[Syegfryed]

The issue they never want to properly adapt the good series that haven't been adapted before, they have to make all these changes that degrade the product from the story that people love into something not near as good. If they instead just stayed more true the original material, we would have a lot of shows that people love. There is a reason in the past 10 or so years a decent amount of people have gone from craving Hollywood to adapt whatever story they love to fearing it.

I also find it so odd that this is second series that Amazon has taken with a rich universe (Wheel of time being the other) and given over to a basically nobody producer, like why didn't they get someone with great experience in the field, who had proven themselves? It is so sad, because veteran hands could have at least turned WoT from a shitshow into something tolerable.

From what i see, most of those problems are hubris, and people not want to go far away from the "hollywood formula".

Hubris, because 1.They think they can make it better, 2.They think the original is not good enough, 3. They don't like the original/how the original is

And they part from a presupposition/assumption, that a movie or a show will only make success/people if they follow a set of pre-determined rules/formula, so they will either have the cliches or it will go against the cliche, both going against the original. Like, always make some cheesy romantic pair/love interest when the story doesn't have it.

Im not a 100% purist that think any change, regardless, is a great sin, some changes need to happen sure, but some shit you can't excuse, i still have nightmares of how they ruined eragon, sure isn't a masterpiece, but what they did should be a crime.

[eschatological]

Hi. Do not derail this thread into discussion of perceived political or social agendas. As always, it is offtopic and considering derailing for this subforum. This is another in a series of warnings that stretch across this subforum, so learn the rules of this subforum. If you want to discuss these topics - take it to GenOT.

[Rennadrel]

Which is funny, it feels to me people are rly in need to something new and fresh in the fantasy genre, they could have done this story, this show as a standalone original universe with their own set of rules since apparently, the only thing they are using is the name and the characters(and not the lore, at all).

If its rly good, it would pay off

They didn't have the rights to any of the lore, that is why the show is going to be crap. It's fanfiction rather than something actually based in Tolkien's world. Also, Middle Earth itself is based entirely on British folklore and Anglo Saxon history, which goes entirely against Amazon Studios own diversity agenda, which is why the series isn't going to be faithful to Tolkien's work. I'd rather them do something unique and new rather than try and adapt someone else's work with their own worldview on it because that does a disservice to the creator. And yes, I probably would watch something that is new and fresh so long as the characters and writing are good. I'm not going to watch an adaptation that doesn't at all abide by even the basic framework that the creator set out originally.

[jonnysensible]

which goes entirely against Amazon Studios own diversity agenda

Jeff Bezos wrote his 13 elements of epic storytelling :



He made executives at amazon studies make spreadsheets tracking every show in development to 'track' his elements.

Diversity agenda? nah just billionaire brainrot.

I'd also hazard a guess that the hundreds of millions (billions?) of dollars spent on tracking consumer habits in order to 'know the audience' feeds into program making. Maybe this show isn't meant for you.

[bledgor]

Jeff Bezos wrote his 13 elements of epic storytelling :



He made executives at amazon studies make spreadsheets tracking every show in development to 'track' his elements.

Diversity agenda? nah just billionaire brainrot.

I'd also hazard a guess that the hundreds of millions (billions?) of dollars spent on tracking consumer habits in order to 'know the audience' feeds into program making. Maybe this show isn't meant for you.

Surprised sex isn't on there if the rumors of a sex coordinate are to be believed about The Rings of Power (I hated how they forced into WoT).

[Rennadrel]

Jeff Bezos wrote his 13 elements of epic storytelling :



He made executives at amazon studies make spreadsheets tracking every show in development to 'track' his elements.

Diversity agenda? nah just billionaire brainrot.

I'd also hazard a guess that the hundreds of millions (billions?) of dollars spent on tracking consumer habits in order to 'know the audience' feeds into program making. Maybe this show isn't meant for you.

And none of those things existed in their terrible adaptation of WoT so what makes you think this show is going to somehow be better considering it already reeks of Tumblr grade fanfiction.

Also telling Tolkien fans that something using his work isn't for them is pretty fucking rich. If it's not for the fans, then the fans won't watch and it'll ultimately fail.

[jonnysensible]

And none of those things existed in their terrible adaptation of WoT so what makes you think this show is going to somehow be better considering it already reeks of Tumblr grade fanfiction.

Also telling Tolkien fans that something using his work isn't for them is pretty fucking rich. If it's not for the fans, then the fans won't watch and it'll ultimately fail.

you are so entitled it hurts. wheel of time was fine. This will probably be fine too.

[Shadowferal]

Shannara Chronicles was fine too...

[Triceron]

Actual races=/= fantasy races.

in this context can you name any instances where a dwarf or elf's story is tied to them being white?

The classification of 'Orc' being a completely different race could apply here, considering in the Silmarillion they were described to be corrupted and twisted Elves with swarthy (dark) complexions and slant eyes. None of the monstrous traits we usually associate with Orcs in pop culture today, at least not at the time of the Silmarillion.

At this point in the narrative, physical trait differences were enough of a distinction that they were given a completely different name. They weren't newly created, since Morgoth had no ability to create life on his own, only twist that which already exists.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The classification of 'Orc' being a completely different race could apply here, considering in the Silmarillion they were described to be corrupted and twisted Elves with swarthy (dark) complexions and slant eyes. None of the monstrous traits we usually associate with Orcs in pop culture today, at least not at the time of the Silmarillion.

At this point in the narrative, physical trait differences were enough of a distinction that they were given a completely different name. They weren't newly created, since Morgoth had no ability to create life on his own, only twist that which already exists.

So I’m just going off wiki as I don’t have access to nor know where to look for first hand descriptions but this is what I found which sounds like it falls into fantasy race and wouldn’t at all be tied to elfs not being white.

Orcs are of human shape, and of varying size;[T 4] in The Hobbit they are called "goblins", though Thorin's Elvish sword from Gondolin is named as "Orcrist, Goblin-cleaver, but the goblins called it simply Biter".[T 5] They are depicted as ugly and filthy, with a taste for human flesh. They are fanged, bow-legged and long-armed.[T 6] Most are small and avoid daylight.

If you have a more detailed excerpt from a book id love to read it.

[Mazza]

you are so entitled it hurts. wheel of time was fine. This will probably be fine too.

While I do think people's opinions on the LOTR show are very early (I mean, give the first episode or 2-3 a chance maybe?) I'd say the WoT show was mediocre at best. If I forget it supposedly is based on the book series. Imo, as an interpretation to the small screen it was goddamn awful.

[Triceron]

So I’m just going off wiki as I don’t have access to nor know where to look for first hand descriptions but this is what I found which sounds like it falls into fantasy race and wouldn’t at all be tied to elfs not being white.

Well I'm not making any case to say there is intentional racism/discrimination written into the books, so I just want to make that clear it is not my intention.

I'm just providing what information we have on the different races and species that exist in the mythology, and how Tolkien seems to have characterized their physical traits. A lot of what we have portrayed in today's fiction are merely adaptations of adaptations of adaptations of art, rather than being any 'true to the source' depictions. Like Elves with pointy ears? It's debateable whether all Elves have them. It's only ever described for one tribe of Elves, and we don't know whether it is meant to describe all Elves, or if it's a unique characteristic of the one tribe.

And to be honest, many races descriptions are fairly broad and left to interpretation, with many of the things we now characterize visually being drawn from the minds of artists like Alan Howe. Like, for example, we never really get a clear picture of the different hairstyles Elves prefer, or what hair color varieties they have. Even Legolas does not have any clear hair color description. Most simply assume he is blonde because Thranduil was described as being blonde. So if we're going off 'white skin' as a narrative feature, then the closest we have is how Tolkien describes the different charactistics of other races, such as the Orcs or the Haradrim, Southron and Easterlings. Descriptions of darker complexions are used specifically for other races/species, which is what informs us that this is not common among the Elves, Humans and Dwarves we are familiar with. And whenever Tolkien does introduce darker skinned characters, it is usually associated with corrupted or evil-aligned characters/races.

Now this isn't just a blanket discrimination thing, just an intentional visual dichotomy that was meant to help illustrate the lines between good and evil, more than be any political statement.

If you have a more detailed excerpt from a book id love to read it.

That's sort of the thing. Tolkien doesn't really go into detail, so everything we know is fairly vague and left to interpretation. I mean the whole concept of 'greenskin' Orcs that is common and popular in fantasy is all a product of many adaptations and offshoots playing 'telephone' sourcing back to those few lines you quoted above.

If anything, Orcs were simply meant to be a representation of human(oid) that was 'ugly' by European standards, and that can be interpreted any which way.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And to be honest, many races descriptions are fairly broad and left to interpretation, with many of the things we now characterize visually being drawn from the minds of artists like Alan Howe. Like, for example, we never really get a clear picture of the different hairstyles Elves prefer, or what hair color varieties they have. Even Legolas does not have any clear hair color description. Most simply assume he is blonde because Thranduil was described as being blonde. So if we're going off 'white skin' as a narrative feature, then the closest we have is how Tolkien describes the different charactistics of other races, such as the Orcs or the Haradrim, Southron and Easterlings. Descriptions of darker complexions are used specifically for other races/species, which is what informs us that this is not common among the Elves, Humans and Dwarves we are familiar with. And whenever Tolkien does introduce darker skinned characters, it is usually associated with corrupted or evil-aligned characters/races.

If anything, Orcs were simply meant to be a representation of human(oid) that was 'ugly' by European standards, and that can be interpreted any which way.

I don’t know enough about Tolkiens work to know if there are any instances that would make this unlikely but from the scarce description I found I would expect orcs to be dark beyond real human skin tones something like the salamanders from 40k

Though If it is just a case of telephone based off of little info it could be any of a million different versions and it’s up in the air how close any of them would be.

[Dhrizzle]

If you have a more detailed excerpt from a book id love to read it.

From one of his letters criticising the treatment for an unmade film -

"The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."

[Lorgar Aurelian]

From one of his letters criticising the treatment for an unmade film -

"The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."

Thanks for the expert way better then what I found.