Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[bledgor]

Jeff Bezos wrote his 13 elements of epic storytelling :



He made executives at amazon studies make spreadsheets tracking every show in development to 'track' his elements.

Diversity agenda? nah just billionaire brainrot.

I'd also hazard a guess that the hundreds of millions (billions?) of dollars spent on tracking consumer habits in order to 'know the audience' feeds into program making. Maybe this show isn't meant for you.

Surprised sex isn't on there if the rumors of a sex coordinate are to be believed about The Rings of Power (I hated how they forced into WoT).

[Rennadrel]

Jeff Bezos wrote his 13 elements of epic storytelling :



He made executives at amazon studies make spreadsheets tracking every show in development to 'track' his elements.

Diversity agenda? nah just billionaire brainrot.

I'd also hazard a guess that the hundreds of millions (billions?) of dollars spent on tracking consumer habits in order to 'know the audience' feeds into program making. Maybe this show isn't meant for you.

And none of those things existed in their terrible adaptation of WoT so what makes you think this show is going to somehow be better considering it already reeks of Tumblr grade fanfiction.

Also telling Tolkien fans that something using his work isn't for them is pretty fucking rich. If it's not for the fans, then the fans won't watch and it'll ultimately fail.

[jonnysensible]

And none of those things existed in their terrible adaptation of WoT so what makes you think this show is going to somehow be better considering it already reeks of Tumblr grade fanfiction.

Also telling Tolkien fans that something using his work isn't for them is pretty fucking rich. If it's not for the fans, then the fans won't watch and it'll ultimately fail.

you are so entitled it hurts. wheel of time was fine. This will probably be fine too.

[Shadowferal]

Shannara Chronicles was fine too...

[Triceron]

Actual races=/= fantasy races.

in this context can you name any instances where a dwarf or elf's story is tied to them being white?

The classification of 'Orc' being a completely different race could apply here, considering in the Silmarillion they were described to be corrupted and twisted Elves with swarthy (dark) complexions and slant eyes. None of the monstrous traits we usually associate with Orcs in pop culture today, at least not at the time of the Silmarillion.

At this point in the narrative, physical trait differences were enough of a distinction that they were given a completely different name. They weren't newly created, since Morgoth had no ability to create life on his own, only twist that which already exists.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The classification of 'Orc' being a completely different race could apply here, considering in the Silmarillion they were described to be corrupted and twisted Elves with swarthy (dark) complexions and slant eyes. None of the monstrous traits we usually associate with Orcs in pop culture today, at least not at the time of the Silmarillion.

At this point in the narrative, physical trait differences were enough of a distinction that they were given a completely different name. They weren't newly created, since Morgoth had no ability to create life on his own, only twist that which already exists.

So I’m just going off wiki as I don’t have access to nor know where to look for first hand descriptions but this is what I found which sounds like it falls into fantasy race and wouldn’t at all be tied to elfs not being white.

Orcs are of human shape, and of varying size;[T 4] in The Hobbit they are called "goblins", though Thorin's Elvish sword from Gondolin is named as "Orcrist, Goblin-cleaver, but the goblins called it simply Biter".[T 5] They are depicted as ugly and filthy, with a taste for human flesh. They are fanged, bow-legged and long-armed.[T 6] Most are small and avoid daylight.

If you have a more detailed excerpt from a book id love to read it.

[Mazza]

you are so entitled it hurts. wheel of time was fine. This will probably be fine too.

While I do think people's opinions on the LOTR show are very early (I mean, give the first episode or 2-3 a chance maybe?) I'd say the WoT show was mediocre at best. If I forget it supposedly is based on the book series. Imo, as an interpretation to the small screen it was goddamn awful.

[Triceron]

So I’m just going off wiki as I don’t have access to nor know where to look for first hand descriptions but this is what I found which sounds like it falls into fantasy race and wouldn’t at all be tied to elfs not being white.

Well I'm not making any case to say there is intentional racism/discrimination written into the books, so I just want to make that clear it is not my intention.

I'm just providing what information we have on the different races and species that exist in the mythology, and how Tolkien seems to have characterized their physical traits. A lot of what we have portrayed in today's fiction are merely adaptations of adaptations of adaptations of art, rather than being any 'true to the source' depictions. Like Elves with pointy ears? It's debateable whether all Elves have them. It's only ever described for one tribe of Elves, and we don't know whether it is meant to describe all Elves, or if it's a unique characteristic of the one tribe.

And to be honest, many races descriptions are fairly broad and left to interpretation, with many of the things we now characterize visually being drawn from the minds of artists like Alan Howe. Like, for example, we never really get a clear picture of the different hairstyles Elves prefer, or what hair color varieties they have. Even Legolas does not have any clear hair color description. Most simply assume he is blonde because Thranduil was described as being blonde. So if we're going off 'white skin' as a narrative feature, then the closest we have is how Tolkien describes the different charactistics of other races, such as the Orcs or the Haradrim, Southron and Easterlings. Descriptions of darker complexions are used specifically for other races/species, which is what informs us that this is not common among the Elves, Humans and Dwarves we are familiar with. And whenever Tolkien does introduce darker skinned characters, it is usually associated with corrupted or evil-aligned characters/races.

Now this isn't just a blanket discrimination thing, just an intentional visual dichotomy that was meant to help illustrate the lines between good and evil, more than be any political statement.

If you have a more detailed excerpt from a book id love to read it.

That's sort of the thing. Tolkien doesn't really go into detail, so everything we know is fairly vague and left to interpretation. I mean the whole concept of 'greenskin' Orcs that is common and popular in fantasy is all a product of many adaptations and offshoots playing 'telephone' sourcing back to those few lines you quoted above.

If anything, Orcs were simply meant to be a representation of human(oid) that was 'ugly' by European standards, and that can be interpreted any which way.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And to be honest, many races descriptions are fairly broad and left to interpretation, with many of the things we now characterize visually being drawn from the minds of artists like Alan Howe. Like, for example, we never really get a clear picture of the different hairstyles Elves prefer, or what hair color varieties they have. Even Legolas does not have any clear hair color description. Most simply assume he is blonde because Thranduil was described as being blonde. So if we're going off 'white skin' as a narrative feature, then the closest we have is how Tolkien describes the different charactistics of other races, such as the Orcs or the Haradrim, Southron and Easterlings. Descriptions of darker complexions are used specifically for other races/species, which is what informs us that this is not common among the Elves, Humans and Dwarves we are familiar with. And whenever Tolkien does introduce darker skinned characters, it is usually associated with corrupted or evil-aligned characters/races.

If anything, Orcs were simply meant to be a representation of human(oid) that was 'ugly' by European standards, and that can be interpreted any which way.

I don’t know enough about Tolkiens work to know if there are any instances that would make this unlikely but from the scarce description I found I would expect orcs to be dark beyond real human skin tones something like the salamanders from 40k

Though If it is just a case of telephone based off of little info it could be any of a million different versions and it’s up in the air how close any of them would be.

[Dhrizzle]

If you have a more detailed excerpt from a book id love to read it.

From one of his letters criticising the treatment for an unmade film -

"The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."

[Lorgar Aurelian]

From one of his letters criticising the treatment for an unmade film -

"The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."

Thanks for the expert way better then what I found.

[Rozz]

It feels like no matter what they do, it's going to be a Witcher/MCU deal where they're going to make an abridged retelling that'll likely being easier to sell to a wide audience with Hardcore fans feeling betrayed no matter what.

I didn't like the Hobbit movies, so maybe this will have the whimsy a lot of fantasy shows have lacked for me.

[Celement]

It feels like no matter what they do, it's going to be a Witcher/MCU deal where they're going to make an abridged retelling that'll likely being easier to sell to a wide audience with Hardcore fans feeling betrayed no matter what.

I didn't like the Hobbit movies, so maybe this will have the whimsy a lot of fantasy shows have lacked for me.

It could be a fantastic new story... the problem is the marketing makes it come off as a social message and without exception everything in the past decade with that attached has been a trainwreck into a sewage treatment plant.

I know nothing about this series beyond them rewriting a beloved fantasy world to appeal to what is seen as trendy atm.

[Rozz]

It could be a fantastic new story... the problem is the marketing makes it come off as a social message and without exception everything in the past decade with that attached has been a trainwreck into a sewage treatment plant.

I know nothing about this series beyond them rewriting a beloved fantasy world to appeal to what is seen as trendy atm.

Ehhh...I'm gonna say if what the first part is about what this forum's moderator recently warned about...then I'd say get into a PM group w/ Sinured or etc, because I'm not interested.

I'll just judge it when it comes out, most of the time nerds are overreacting about something that doesn't even exist yet. About 2/10 times they're right

[Celement]

Ehhh...I'm gonna say if what the first part is about what this forum's moderator recently warned about...then I'd say get into a PM group w/ Sinured or etc, because I'm not interested.

I'll just judge it when it comes out, most of the time nerds are overreacting about something that doesn't even exist yet. About 2/10 times they're right

No worries I get it. Till it goes live or leaks there just isn't anything else to talk about.

[Rozz]

No worries I get it. Till it goes live or leaks there just isn't anything else to talk about.

Yeah and sometimes when the leaks are legit and the backlash is strong enough, it'll result in changes or kill the project in the middle of shooting.

Ty Internet for nuking support in that Power Puff Girls remake.

[bledgor]

Yeah and sometimes when the leaks are legit and the backlash is strong enough, it'll result in changes or kill the project in the middle of shooting.

Ty Internet for nuking support in that Power Puff Girls remake.

On the other hand, Sonic redemption arc.

[Mace]

Yeah and sometimes when the leaks are legit and the backlash is strong enough, it'll result in changes or kill the project in the middle of shooting.

Ty Internet for nuking support in that Power Puff Girls remake.

Most things are best seen yourself and judged yourself. Sometimes they are not half as bad as time nerds put it out to be. But the social messaging is very annoying. The best exampled of a ruined piece of work was the Wheel of Time adaptation, and seeing what was done to that makes people very nervous about this...very nervous.


There has been a habit of ruining very popular IPs to push messages across. I had no prejudice against many of the social issues they support, in fact I support quite a few of them myself, but the quality of the IPs has been a mess @Celement rightly puts it as trainwreck into a sewage treatment plant - except nothing gets treated. A lot, but not all i feel have been sub par, with weird directions and plots that make no sense, unless you understand the times and the messaging - I feel many of the times they have sacrificed telling a decent story to preach a message - and not all of the messaging I agree with - especially the one in the Wheel of Time..sheesh.. that was BAD !!

[Rozz]

Most things are best seen yourself and judged yourself. Sometimes they are not half as bad as time nerds put it out to be. But the social messaging is very annoying. The best exampled of a ruined piece of work was the Wheel of Time adaptation, and seeing what was done to that makes people very nervous about this...very nervous.


There has been a habit of ruining very popular IPs to push messages across. I had no prejudice against many of the social issues they support, in fact I support quite a few of them myself, but the quality of the IPs has been a mess @Celement rightly puts it as trainwreck into a sewage treatment plant - except nothing gets treated. A lot, but not all i feel have been sub par, with weird directions and plots that make no sense, unless you understand the times and the messaging - I feel many of the times they have sacrificed telling a decent story to preach a message - and not all of the messaging I agree with - especially the one in the Wheel of Time..sheesh.. that was BAD !!

Ultimately I think that it's the opposite. I don't think irl topics being inserted can ruin an IP because they divert resources/effort, I think it's clumsy writers not having the skill or knowledge to make a cohesive story and they--or usually advertisers not having faith in the project-- use topical elements of what they wrote (and present it isolated in a trailer), hoping to recoup finances/ minimize a loss or criticism for an overall terrible project.

I don't like these arguments, because sometimes it overlooks that the problem isn't the messages but how they're integrated into the lore of the world and that the person trying to tell the story flat out isn't good enough to do so.

The IPs weren't ruined because of the messages, but because they were in bad hands from the start with people who were never going to put in the effort to please anyone.

[Mace]

Ultimately I think that it's the opposite. I don't think irl topics being inserted can ruin an IP because they divert resources/effort, I think it's clumsy writers not having the skill or knowledge to make a cohesive story and they--or usually advertisers not having faith in the project-- use topical elements of what they wrote (and present it isolated in a trailer), hoping to recoup finances/ minimize a loss or criticism for an overall terrible project.

I don't like these arguments, because sometimes it overlooks that the problem isn't the messages but how they're integrated into the lore of the world and that the person trying to tell the story flat out isn't good enough to do so.

The IPs weren't ruined because of the messages, but because they were in bad hands from the start with people who were never going to put in the effort to please anyone.

I guess there has always been messaging.. what makes the current stream so bad, is a combination of things, the extent to which it is done and how ridiculous the ideology is, and I think many are seeing this and going this is awful, but I wonder what the current 6-15 year olds feel, they don't know any better, can they spot what is b/s or how much?

Don't get me wrong their has always been b/s, the 80s started it, it's insane atm, but I think some things have been ruined by it. Others have not.. Part of this issues is not the messaging as much as it is how terrible some of the new material IPs have been with insane budgets, pre-made popularity because of the past, and putting out a piece of work that fails so badly on many levels - you expect more , not just for the money spent, but also for how precious it is to you..

But then there has been a lot of restructuring about how these companies do things. These days studios prefer to manage things themselves, pay less for talented people and boycott them altogether as they have identified a formula and feel it's just a science.. has played a role. It's more than that though, activists have often been hired and are more concerned with their politics and ideology with no talent how to convey them properly, just soap box them.

Why have these big bosses accepted this? It's because everyone is still getting use to the impact of social media, it will take them a while to properly suss the impact, when not to rely too heavily on opinion polls, how to properly interpret fan response. .. these guys listen to crazy comments of disgruntled or upset people that have nonsense and factor it in.

We are use to that sort of thing, we grew up with it, on wow forums, gaming forums, but the older execs, have no idea, there are all these messaging, influence platforms and trendy figures they can now put on things because of view counts, and they've just gone insane, I feel mis-understanding what the data means, because they are not intimately aware with how these things work. They rely on people with degrees who have done studies on areas not much proven, and gotten great jobs pushing the necessity of their work for marketing impossible to correlate , false statistics interpretations.. what use to be science has been a probability guessing game based opinions not on facts.

And they've got it wrong, or rather, it's so convoluted, smart enough people can bend it to say anything you want. Senior shareholders and investors who don't realise or understand this can be conned by the people they hire who FAIL at their job and lose them money, but can blame toxic fans, and pseudo social media trends rather than the quality of their work and their bad decisions. So those trainwrecks continue because those people don't get fired, and instead push a lot of bad stuff on us as they have their goals and ideals.