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  1. #1261
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    It could be a fantastic new story... the problem is the marketing makes it come off as a social message and without exception everything in the past decade with that attached has been a trainwreck into a sewage treatment plant.

    I know nothing about this series beyond them rewriting a beloved fantasy world to appeal to what is seen as trendy atm.
    Ehhh...I'm gonna say if what the first part is about what this forum's moderator recently warned about...then I'd say get into a PM group w/ Sinured or etc, because I'm not interested.

    I'll just judge it when it comes out, most of the time nerds are overreacting about something that doesn't even exist yet. About 2/10 times they're right
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  2. #1262
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Ehhh...I'm gonna say if what the first part is about what this forum's moderator recently warned about...then I'd say get into a PM group w/ Sinured or etc, because I'm not interested.

    I'll just judge it when it comes out, most of the time nerds are overreacting about something that doesn't even exist yet. About 2/10 times they're right
    No worries I get it. Till it goes live or leaks there just isn't anything else to talk about.

  3. #1263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    No worries I get it. Till it goes live or leaks there just isn't anything else to talk about.
    Yeah and sometimes when the leaks are legit and the backlash is strong enough, it'll result in changes or kill the project in the middle of shooting.

    Ty Internet for nuking support in that Power Puff Girls remake.
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  4. #1264
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Yeah and sometimes when the leaks are legit and the backlash is strong enough, it'll result in changes or kill the project in the middle of shooting.

    Ty Internet for nuking support in that Power Puff Girls remake.
    On the other hand, Sonic redemption arc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  5. #1265
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Yeah and sometimes when the leaks are legit and the backlash is strong enough, it'll result in changes or kill the project in the middle of shooting.

    Ty Internet for nuking support in that Power Puff Girls remake.
    Most things are best seen yourself and judged yourself. Sometimes they are not half as bad as time nerds put it out to be. But the social messaging is very annoying. The best exampled of a ruined piece of work was the Wheel of Time adaptation, and seeing what was done to that makes people very nervous about this...very nervous.


    There has been a habit of ruining very popular IPs to push messages across. I had no prejudice against many of the social issues they support, in fact I support quite a few of them myself, but the quality of the IPs has been a mess @Celement rightly puts it as trainwreck into a sewage treatment plant - except nothing gets treated. A lot, but not all i feel have been sub par, with weird directions and plots that make no sense, unless you understand the times and the messaging - I feel many of the times they have sacrificed telling a decent story to preach a message - and not all of the messaging I agree with - especially the one in the Wheel of Time..sheesh.. that was BAD !!

  6. #1266
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Most things are best seen yourself and judged yourself. Sometimes they are not half as bad as time nerds put it out to be. But the social messaging is very annoying. The best exampled of a ruined piece of work was the Wheel of Time adaptation, and seeing what was done to that makes people very nervous about this...very nervous.


    There has been a habit of ruining very popular IPs to push messages across. I had no prejudice against many of the social issues they support, in fact I support quite a few of them myself, but the quality of the IPs has been a mess @Celement rightly puts it as trainwreck into a sewage treatment plant - except nothing gets treated. A lot, but not all i feel have been sub par, with weird directions and plots that make no sense, unless you understand the times and the messaging - I feel many of the times they have sacrificed telling a decent story to preach a message - and not all of the messaging I agree with - especially the one in the Wheel of Time..sheesh.. that was BAD !!
    Ultimately I think that it's the opposite. I don't think irl topics being inserted can ruin an IP because they divert resources/effort, I think it's clumsy writers not having the skill or knowledge to make a cohesive story and they--or usually advertisers not having faith in the project-- use topical elements of what they wrote (and present it isolated in a trailer), hoping to recoup finances/ minimize a loss or criticism for an overall terrible project.

    I don't like these arguments, because sometimes it overlooks that the problem isn't the messages but how they're integrated into the lore of the world and that the person trying to tell the story flat out isn't good enough to do so.

    The IPs weren't ruined because of the messages, but because they were in bad hands from the start with people who were never going to put in the effort to please anyone.
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  7. #1267
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Ultimately I think that it's the opposite. I don't think irl topics being inserted can ruin an IP because they divert resources/effort, I think it's clumsy writers not having the skill or knowledge to make a cohesive story and they--or usually advertisers not having faith in the project-- use topical elements of what they wrote (and present it isolated in a trailer), hoping to recoup finances/ minimize a loss or criticism for an overall terrible project.

    I don't like these arguments, because sometimes it overlooks that the problem isn't the messages but how they're integrated into the lore of the world and that the person trying to tell the story flat out isn't good enough to do so.

    The IPs weren't ruined because of the messages, but because they were in bad hands from the start with people who were never going to put in the effort to please anyone.
    I guess there has always been messaging.. what makes the current stream so bad, is a combination of things, the extent to which it is done and how ridiculous the ideology is, and I think many are seeing this and going this is awful, but I wonder what the current 6-15 year olds feel, they don't know any better, can they spot what is b/s or how much?

    Don't get me wrong their has always been b/s, the 80s started it, it's insane atm, but I think some things have been ruined by it. Others have not.. Part of this issues is not the messaging as much as it is how terrible some of the new material IPs have been with insane budgets, pre-made popularity because of the past, and putting out a piece of work that fails so badly on many levels - you expect more , not just for the money spent, but also for how precious it is to you..

    But then there has been a lot of restructuring about how these companies do things. These days studios prefer to manage things themselves, pay less for talented people and boycott them altogether as they have identified a formula and feel it's just a science.. has played a role. It's more than that though, activists have often been hired and are more concerned with their politics and ideology with no talent how to convey them properly, just soap box them.

    Why have these big bosses accepted this? It's because everyone is still getting use to the impact of social media, it will take them a while to properly suss the impact, when not to rely too heavily on opinion polls, how to properly interpret fan response. .. these guys listen to crazy comments of disgruntled or upset people that have nonsense and factor it in.

    We are use to that sort of thing, we grew up with it, on wow forums, gaming forums, but the older execs, have no idea, there are all these messaging, influence platforms and trendy figures they can now put on things because of view counts, and they've just gone insane, I feel mis-understanding what the data means, because they are not intimately aware with how these things work. They rely on people with degrees who have done studies on areas not much proven, and gotten great jobs pushing the necessity of their work for marketing impossible to correlate , false statistics interpretations.. what use to be science has been a probability guessing game based opinions not on facts.

    And they've got it wrong, or rather, it's so convoluted, smart enough people can bend it to say anything you want. Senior shareholders and investors who don't realise or understand this can be conned by the people they hire who FAIL at their job and lose them money, but can blame toxic fans, and pseudo social media trends rather than the quality of their work and their bad decisions. So those trainwrecks continue because those people don't get fired, and instead push a lot of bad stuff on us as they have their goals and ideals.
    Last edited by Mace; 2022-04-13 at 07:31 PM.

  8. #1268
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Ultimately I think that it's the opposite. I don't think irl topics being inserted can ruin an IP because they divert resources/effort, I think it's clumsy writers not having the skill or knowledge to make a cohesive story and they--or usually advertisers not having faith in the project-- use topical elements of what they wrote (and present it isolated in a trailer), hoping to recoup finances/ minimize a loss or criticism for an overall terrible project.

    I don't like these arguments, because sometimes it overlooks that the problem isn't the messages but how they're integrated into the lore of the world and that the person trying to tell the story flat out isn't good enough to do so.

    The IPs weren't ruined because of the messages, but because they were in bad hands from the start with people who were never going to put in the effort to please anyone.
    I can't really agree with that.. it is going to touch on the forbidden topic but is there a single instance of a message not being ham fisted into an existing narrative?

    I can't think of an example outside of the joker and it was smeared for daring to... I think activists who have only the poorest grasp on what it is they are trying to say are at the creative wheel. Sadly its politics first story telling second in far to many cases.

  9. #1269
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I can't really agree with that.. it is going to touch on the forbidden topic but is there a single instance of a message not being ham fisted into an existing narrative?

    I can't think of an example outside of the joker and it was smeared for daring to... I think activists who have only the poorest grasp on what it is they are trying to say are at the creative wheel. Sadly its politics first story telling second in far to many cases.
    Yeah... like the moral of the story in every piece of fiction. If something feels hamfisted, it wasn't written into the story properly. Almost every story in the world is about some type of social issue or messaging. You learn though the mistakes and actions of the characters. Then you argue with other fans about the takeaways

    Like CGI, you shouldn't go "oh there is the cgi" it should feel like a natural part of the story.

    I think that gives everything a fair shake and still leaves room for everyone to have their opinion on whether that's accomplished or not.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2022-04-16 at 12:03 AM.
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  10. #1270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Yeah and sometimes when the leaks are legit and the backlash is strong enough, it'll result in changes or kill the project in the middle of shooting.

    Ty Internet for nuking support in that Power Puff Girls remake.
    I honestly don't even understand the live action adaptations of animation and anime. Like, Tolkien is easy to do because it's all built on British folklore, but a lot of these adaptations come from genres that have a style or aesthetic and is really unique to anime and animation. I think both Power Puff Girls and Fairly Odd Parents as shows did a good job of capturing that sort of cheesy, over the top style that is common in Japanese anime, and it doesn't at all translate over to live action. Same reason why Cowboy Bebop was a hack job. A lot of what made that show great can't really be conveyed in live action the same way. Whether it be emotional impact or acting itself. Even some anime dubs are terrible BECAUSE there's characters that have a certain way of acting that for whatever reason works well in Japanese but doesn't in English. Sometimes it's best to leave the work of an artist alone and not bother adapting it. I think there's a ton you can do with Tolkien's world while staying faithful to what he established as well, but unfortunately I just don't see this show being it because studios would rather scrape the bottom of the barrel to hire the cheapest people they can get rather than people with a strong vision because they cost too much. Peter Jackson would have been the first and only person I would have hired to be the producer and show runner for The Rings of Power, and it's not like they don't have the money to get someone like him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Ultimately I think that it's the opposite. I don't think irl topics being inserted can ruin an IP because they divert resources/effort, I think it's clumsy writers not having the skill or knowledge to make a cohesive story and they--or usually advertisers not having faith in the project-- use topical elements of what they wrote (and present it isolated in a trailer), hoping to recoup finances/ minimize a loss or criticism for an overall terrible project.

    I don't like these arguments, because sometimes it overlooks that the problem isn't the messages but how they're integrated into the lore of the world and that the person trying to tell the story flat out isn't good enough to do so.

    The IPs weren't ruined because of the messages, but because they were in bad hands from the start with people who were never going to put in the effort to please anyone.
    I completely agree with you here, Rozz. The issue isn't who or what is in the story, it is how the story is constructed and often times terrible script writing or lack of backstory that ruins things. It's one of my biggest issues with modern day films and a lot of TV shows. Some are great because the writers understand subplots, nuance and character development. Companies like Disney, Amazon, Netflix and WB seem to like hiring writers who don't understand what are effectively the most basic elements of creating an engaging story. Of course there's some really good shows that check all their boxes, but there aren't enough of them. The same issue is happening in the fantasy novel world as well where writers tried to cancel Brandon Sanderson because he made a ton of money off his Kickstarter campaign because he wrote nearly half a dozen books. They are mad because he's productive and a good writer who frequently tops the book sales charts because he writes what people enjoy reading. Film and TV are no different. When these shows inevitably get cancelled after a season or two for being mediocre and unengaging, the writers will be the first people on Twitter getting mad and blaming the people they should have been creating the shows for, which is fans, not activists.

    I think my biggest gripe about how Amazon presented The Rings of Power is that it's literally a nothing trailer that only shows "hey our cast is diverse". A bunch of obviously lazy CGI work and a canonically incorrect representation of Galadrial is all we got otherwise.

  11. #1271
    The movies weren't perfect but they were clearly made with a lot of respect and love for the source material.

  12. #1272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    It feels like no matter what they do, it's going to be a Witcher/MCU deal where they're going to make an abridged retelling that'll likely being easier to sell to a wide audience with Hardcore fans feeling betrayed no matter what.

    I didn't like the Hobbit movies, so maybe this will have the whimsy a lot of fantasy shows have lacked for me.
    The Hobbit films were bad because they plugged a bunch of filler content in so they could make it 3 films and they didn't feel near as real as LotR did. When someone pointed out to me that the costume and character looks were so terribly inconsistent, I couldn't unsee it once I saw it. It's actually pretty cringe too. You'd have one scene where characters would look dirty, battered and disheveled and in the next scene they'd all be cleaned up and straightened with fresh new clothes. They should have just made two movies and cut the filler, it would have been way better.

  13. #1273
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    The Hobbit films were bad because they plugged a bunch of filler content in so they could make it 3 films and they didn't feel near as real as LotR did.
    The Hobbit movies suffered from the same problem as the LotR movies: the filmmakers tried turning a book about a journey into a series of action films. That's why the final movie of both trilogies is so lackluster. People have never read the books might not know this, but the LotR books are not about fights. Tolkien hardly describes them. Nor are the movies about the big warrior people like Aragorn or Boromir. The movies are centered on the hobbits (2 of which were sadly sidelined and turned into gag characters in the movies. Gimli was also turned into a stupid joke character, but that crime doesn't hurt as bad since the books were never about him anyway). The last Hobbit movie suffers the most, as the movie focuses on all of these other characters fighting each other... and contrives Bilbo getting involved in fight scenes, when the story was never about that (Bilbo gets knocked unconscious and misses the entire battle of the five armies. Thorin dies offscreen).

    The other problem that hurt the Hobbit movies is production trouble. Guillermo del Toro was supposed to direct it but was replaced by Jackson at the last minute, who didn't have the three years of pre-production work already set up and ready to go like he had on LotR. Jackson should have told the studio no, the project wasn't ready and he wasn't going to helm it until it was.

    The one thing I will say about the Hobbit movies is that the lead actors, Martin Freeman and Richard Armitage, are far more engaging to watch than Elijah Wood and Viggo Mortensen were. Really bad directorial decisions on those latter two.

  14. #1274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The Hobbit movies suffered from the same problem as the LotR movies: the filmmakers tried turning a book about a journey into a series of action films. That's why the final movie of both trilogies is so lackluster. People have never read the books might not know this, but the LotR books are not about fights. Tolkien hardly describes them. Nor are the movies about the big warrior people like Aragorn or Boromir. The movies are centered on the hobbits (2 of which were sadly sidelined and turned into gag characters in the movies. Gimli was also turned into a stupid joke character, but that crime doesn't hurt as bad since the books were never about him anyway). The last Hobbit movie suffers the most, as the movie focuses on all of these other characters fighting each other... and contrives Bilbo getting involved in fight scenes, when the story was never about that (Bilbo gets knocked unconscious and misses the entire battle of the five armies. Thorin dies offscreen).

    The other problem that hurt the Hobbit movies is production trouble. Guillermo del Toro was supposed to direct it but was replaced by Jackson at the last minute, who didn't have the three years of pre-production work already set up and ready to go like he had on LotR. Jackson should have told the studio no, the project wasn't ready and he wasn't going to helm it until it was.

    The one thing I will say about the Hobbit movies is that the lead actors, Martin Freeman and Richard Armitage, are far more engaging to watch than Elijah Wood and Viggo Mortensen were. Really bad directorial decisions on those latter two.
    Gonna hard disagree as the LotR films are far more faithful adaptations of the books than The Hobbit is. Sure, some creative liberty has to be taken to make the films more appropriate for a box office draw, that isn't really uncommon. But they were still good liberties, especially when you go for the extended versions over the theatre releases.

  15. #1275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    I completely agree with you here, Rozz. The issue isn't who or what is in the story, it is how the story is constructed and often times terrible script writing or lack of backstory that ruins things. It's one of my biggest issues with modern day films and a lot of TV shows. Some are great because the writers understand subplots, nuance and character development. Companies like Disney, Amazon, Netflix and WB seem to like hiring writers who don't understand what are effectively the most basic elements of creating an engaging story. Of course there's some really good shows that check all their boxes, but there aren't enough of them. The same issue is happening in the fantasy novel world as well where writers tried to cancel Brandon Sanderson because he made a ton of money off his Kickstarter campaign because he wrote nearly half a dozen books. They are mad because he's productive and a good writer who frequently tops the book sales charts because he writes what people enjoy reading. Film and TV are no different. When these shows inevitably get cancelled after a season or two for being mediocre and unengaging, the writers will be the first people on Twitter getting mad and blaming the people they should have been creating the shows for, which is fans, not activists.

    I think my biggest gripe about how Amazon presented The Rings of Power is that it's literally a nothing trailer that only shows "hey our cast is diverse". A bunch of obviously lazy CGI work and a canonically incorrect representation of Galadrial is all we got otherwise.
    Tolkien was *very* protective of his IP as was his son. I feel that this adaptation is already done in bad faith purely from the representation of Galadriel. I think the phrase the showrunners used to describe her was 'full of piss and vinegar'. That is not the character Tolkien wrote, anyone who has read his works knows that. It feels as if they're sat there laughing 'well we own the rights now so we can do what the hell we like'. This is not someone like Stephen King who signs off the rights and almost hopes for the best. There's a quote from him something along the lines of 'its like sending your kids out in the world, you've done your best with them and now you have to leave them to make their own way'

    Regardless of any extraneous messaging, the showrunners have already blatantly gone against the wishes of the author and for that reason, I'm not hopeful.

    Something I see in recent writing is the trend of trying to ape things that have worked before. Things like the big reveal in 6ixth Sense or the Red Wedding from ASoIaF. It almost feels that writers rely on those devices to tell a story instead of having the confidence in their ability to tell something decent. I strongly suspect that we'll see a lot of that style of writing (if you can call it a style) from RoP but that remains to be seen. Honestly, I'd like to see some writers with a decent amount of experience take on some of these well loved IPs, instead of people who are just cutting their teeth and are trying to make a name for themselves instead of trying to tell a good story.

  16. #1276
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The Hobbit movies suffered from the same problem as the LotR movies: the filmmakers tried turning a book about a journey into a series of action films. That's why the final movie of both trilogies is so lackluster. People have never read the books might not know this, but the LotR books are not about fights. Tolkien hardly describes them. Nor are the movies about the big warrior people like Aragorn or Boromir. The movies are centered on the hobbits (2 of which were sadly sidelined and turned into gag characters in the movies. Gimli was also turned into a stupid joke character, but that crime doesn't hurt as bad since the books were never about him anyway). The last Hobbit movie suffers the most, as the movie focuses on all of these other characters fighting each other... and contrives Bilbo getting involved in fight scenes, when the story was never about that (Bilbo gets knocked unconscious and misses the entire battle of the five armies. Thorin dies offscreen).

    The other problem that hurt the Hobbit movies is production trouble. Guillermo del Toro was supposed to direct it but was replaced by Jackson at the last minute, who didn't have the three years of pre-production work already set up and ready to go like he had on LotR. Jackson should have told the studio no, the project wasn't ready and he wasn't going to helm it until it was.

    The one thing I will say about the Hobbit movies is that the lead actors, Martin Freeman and Richard Armitage, are far more engaging to watch than Elijah Wood and Viggo Mortensen were. Really bad directorial decisions on those latter two.
    Imagine having this take and thinking it should be considered serious.
    Just don't reply to me. Please. If you can help it.

  17. #1277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    Imagine having this take and thinking it should be considered serious.
    I'm just confused as to why you think its not a "serious" take (whatever that means...)

    I saw nothing wrong with his opinion outright, and certainly more reality and "fact" based (it did have production issues and switched, for example - the books aren't about action/fights - also true, etc.) than most of the other opinions I've seen around this thread. Esp. as the topic of the thread is months from release so almost everything here is an expression of people's worst fears/opinions on something no one has seen.

    So I'm confused as to what is such a big huge 'surprise' or whatever from his expressed opinion that makes you think its total trash?

    I adored the LOTR movies and found the Hobbit Trilogy to be very disappointing in most aspects and even more so when compared to the LOTR trilogy. (As in I think I would have liked/enjoyed the Hobbit 3 better if we'd never had such a great LOTR 3. My expectations would have been way lower.) And the Hobbit as a live-action movie I'd been waiting my entire life to see - was really amped when Jackson took over and was expecting another LOTR-respect-job and got... well... not that. It should have always been a single movie - period. I was very turned off by all of the additional content to make it 3 movies - when I wasn't bothered by some of the 'added' content for LOTR. *shrugs* oh well, the Rankin-Bass Hobbit remains the best adaptation to date.

    But yeah I see nothing in Val's opinion there that is at all surprising or even that 'off'. I mean I may disagree that Viggo and Elijah were 'less engaging' but again, that's standard 'normal opinion' stuff.

    I mean I don't agree with everything in the statement - but I agree with some. And I certainly didn't see anything I've not seen already expressed in various other opinions over the years *shrugs*
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  18. #1278
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Tolkien was *very* protective of his IP as was his son. I feel that this adaptation is already done in bad faith purely from the representation of Galadriel. I think the phrase the showrunners used to describe her was 'full of piss and vinegar'. That is not the character Tolkien wrote, anyone who has read his works knows that. It feels as if they're sat there laughing 'well we own the rights now so we can do what the hell we like'. This is not someone like Stephen King who signs off the rights and almost hopes for the best. There's a quote from him something along the lines of 'its like sending your kids out in the world, you've done your best with them and now you have to leave them to make their own way'

    Regardless of any extraneous messaging, the showrunners have already blatantly gone against the wishes of the author and for that reason, I'm not hopeful.

    Something I see in recent writing is the trend of trying to ape things that have worked before. Things like the big reveal in 6ixth Sense or the Red Wedding from ASoIaF. It almost feels that writers rely on those devices to tell a story instead of having the confidence in their ability to tell something decent. I strongly suspect that we'll see a lot of that style of writing (if you can call it a style) from RoP but that remains to be seen. Honestly, I'd like to see some writers with a decent amount of experience take on some of these well loved IPs, instead of people who are just cutting their teeth and are trying to make a name for themselves instead of trying to tell a good story.
    Tolkien sold film rights when he was in some trouble and the treatment they produced for it was absolutely terrible. Tolkien wrote a rather scathing criticism of it but ultimately was respectful to the people creating it and understood that final say had passed out of his hands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The Hobbit movies suffered from the same problem as the LotR movies: the filmmakers tried turning a book about a journey into a series of action films. That's why the final movie of both trilogies is so lackluster. People have never read the books might not know this, but the LotR books are not about fights. Tolkien hardly describes them. Nor are the movies about the big warrior people like Aragorn or Boromir. The movies are centered on the hobbits (2 of which were sadly sidelined and turned into gag characters in the movies. Gimli was also turned into a stupid joke character, but that crime doesn't hurt as bad since the books were never about him anyway). The last Hobbit movie suffers the most, as the movie focuses on all of these other characters fighting each other... and contrives Bilbo getting involved in fight scenes, when the story was never about that (Bilbo gets knocked unconscious and misses the entire battle of the five armies. Thorin dies offscreen).

    The other problem that hurt the Hobbit movies is production trouble. Guillermo del Toro was supposed to direct it but was replaced by Jackson at the last minute, who didn't have the three years of pre-production work already set up and ready to go like he had on LotR. Jackson should have told the studio no, the project wasn't ready and he wasn't going to helm it until it was.

    The one thing I will say about the Hobbit movies is that the lead actors, Martin Freeman and Richard Armitage, are far more engaging to watch than Elijah Wood and Viggo Mortensen were. Really bad directorial decisions on those latter two.
    It is an absolute travesty how they treated Merry in the films. In the books he is as a seasoned adventurer in the wilder parts of Hobbit territory (Buckland being almost a land apart from the Shire) and masterminds the party's surreptitious departure to Bree. Without him the Ring would have never have made it far past the borders of the Shire if Frodo could have even made it that far without Merry. He has knowledge, connections and skills and is brave and capable in a fight. Merry in the books is a heroic badass and the films turned him into a slightly dopier Pippin.

  19. #1279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Tolkien sold film rights when he was in some trouble and the treatment they produced for it was absolutely terrible. Tolkien wrote a rather scathing criticism of it but ultimately was respectful to the people creating it and understood that final say had passed out of his hands.

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    It is an absolute travesty how they treated Merry in the films. In the books he is as a seasoned adventurer in the wilder parts of Hobbit territory (Buckland being almost a land apart from the Shire) and masterminds the party's surreptitious departure to Bree. Without him the Ring would have never have made it far past the borders of the Shire if Frodo could have even made it that far without Merry. He has knowledge, connections and skills and is brave and capable in a fight. Merry in the books is a heroic badass and the films turned him into a slightly dopier Pippin.
    None of the Hobbits are heroic badasses nor seasoned adventurers at the beginning of the books. And he's certainly not a badass in combat. The only difference is that Merry is an adult (36 years old) while Pippin is still in his "tweens" (aged 29). So Merry is more mature, witty and wise than Pippin. And of course, being the future Master of Brandy Hall, he knows his ways in Buckland, which are not much less tame than the Four Farthings. Oh, he knows to drive a boat. I agree that would be considered quite "adventurous" by most Hobbits of the Farthings, but that's still not that impressive. And very quickly in the Old Forest he's not of much more help than Pippin. I agree though that both were treated as clownish characters (of about the same age) in the movies, and they lost their moment to shine because the Scouring of the Shire has been omitted. Which I expected. They also made the travel from Bag End to Bree quite shorter, so there's no "conspiracy" that Merry could have lead to spy on Frodo... But in what they left in the movies, I don't see much differences with how he behaves in the book (apart from the clownish parts).
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  20. #1280
    The Lord Of The Rings TV Show Cost Amazon $465 Million (Or One Jeffrey Bezos Mega-Yacht)
    Prime Video has a lot riding on its upcoming streaming series, "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power," and when we say a lot, we mean approximately $58 million per episode. This outpaces even the $30 million per episode that Netflix has reportedly sunk into season 4 of "Stranger Things."
    Whatever you want to say about how the series may end up, that's a lot of money sunk into it thus far.

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