Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[karung]

Bullshit. Good stories endure because of their ability to be retold and reimagined across various media, from ancient myths to Shakespeare to more modern classics like Tolkien.

Yeah sure buddy, let there be only black gay transgender elves. While you are at it, make it more diverse, halflings can have a height of 6 feet. After all it is body shaming.

Infracted.

[Ealyssa]

make it more diverse

Yeah, yeah, the classic dipshit argument...

Everyone must be male or "political"
Everyone must be white or "political"
Everyone must be straight or "political"

At least you're honest about being a dipshit, I respect that from a burner account

[eschatological]

It is a classic piece of literature. You don't change anything. It is not a comic book, it is like Tolstoy, Dostoyevski, Turgenyev. It is not your dough to play with. Fuck me, with your mentality we will never have good things. Never.

Good luck trying to adapt The Idiot into a film. It's a 1200 page book. No adaptation of any of these men's works have been fully faithful to the novel.

[Adamas102]

Yeah sure buddy, let there be only black gay transgender elves. While you are at it, make it more diverse, halflings can have a height of 6 feet. After all it is body shaming.

Doubling down on the stupid isn’t going to make your original post any less dumb.

[karung]

Doubling down on the stupid isn’t going to make your original post any less dumb.

sure man, whatever makes you sleep well at night.

[Dhrizzle]

It is a classic piece of literature. You don't change anything. It is not a comic book, it is like Tolstoy, Dostoyevski, Turgenyev. It is not your dough to play with. Fuck me, with your mentality we will never have good things. Never.

Tolkien accepted that changes would be made to his work when he originally sold the film rights to it. Floating around somewhere is his rather scathing remarks on a film treatment for a much earlier production that never came to fruition. While he clearly disliked many of the things that were proposed he never stopped respecting the creatives behind the film, nor did he declare they had no right to make those changes.

[Celement]

Tolkien accepted that changes would be made to his work when he originally sold the film rights to it. Floating around somewhere is his rather scathing remarks on a film treatment for a much earlier production that never came to fruition. While he clearly disliked many of the things that were proposed he never stopped respecting the creatives behind the film, nor did he declare they had no right to make those changes.

I think the main issue is that the story they are telling will likely have characters behaving in absurd ways beyond maybe gandolf ( you really have to try and go out of your way to mess up that character).

It feels like the best they can hope for is to be another middling fantasy show. It doesn't help that wheel of times terrible adaptation poisoned the well to.

[Syegfryed]

I mean, plenty of people also criticized/criticize Jackson's vision. ESPECIALLY where it diverged from the original materials (the whole Faramir storyline etc.). I guess it's less visible because it was two decades ago, and also because the internet has come a long way since. There'd be no shortage of people screaming bloody murder if it was happening in the present day. I'm sure there'd be entire subreddits dedicated to the fact that Frodo looks too young alone

People think you need to shat on Peter Jackson work every time you talk about other tolkien's adaptation, otherwise you can't complain/criticize in this one

Like, its being what, almost 20 years, its not like you need to complain about some shit he did still.

[Dhrizzle]

I think the main issue is that the story they are telling will likely have characters behaving in absurd ways beyond maybe gandolf ( you really have to try and go out of your way to mess up that character).

It feels like the best they can hope for is to be another middling fantasy show. It doesn't help that wheel of times terrible adaptation poisoned the well to.

They can mess up Gandalf just by having him exist in the Second Age, though there is apparently reason to believe the Blue Wizards could turn up then as Tolkien decided they should have been sent much earlier.

From the bits I've seen so far (and I haven't been keeping up religiously) nothing seems to be too out of whack with Tolkien's various notes, especially as the Second Age is probably the most sparsely detailed.

Biggest issue I'm having at the moment is the age of Celebrimbor who was born a generation after Galadriel but is played by a much older actor.

[Celement]

They can mess up Gandalf just by having him exist in the Second Age, though there is apparently reason to believe the Blue Wizards could turn up then as Tolkien decided they should have been sent much earlier.

From the bits I've seen so far (and I haven't been keeping up religiously) nothing seems to be too out of whack with Tolkien's various notes, especially as the Second Age is probably the most sparsely detailed.

Biggest issue I'm having at the moment is the age of Celebrimbor who was born a generation after Galadriel but is played by a much older actor.

I thought they already teased Gandalf though I could be mistaken.

[Dhrizzle]

People think you need to shat on Peter Jackson work every time you talk about other tolkien's adaptation, otherwise you can't complain/criticize in this one

Like, its being what, almost 20 years, its not like you need to complain about some shit he did still.

You don't have to shit on Peter Jackson's films, but it's hypocritical when people praise him for staying consistent with Tolkien but rail against Amazon when they're both doing similar things.

- - - Updated - - -

I thought they already teased Gandalf though I could be mistaken.

I think they teased having wizards which set alarm bells ringing until someone told me Tolkien had plans for the Blues to be active in the Second Age. If it is Gandalf (as in Gandalf the Wizard, not Olorin the Maiar) then it would be a pretty grievous change as Gandalf definitely only arrived in the Third Age, and reluctantly at that.

[Syegfryed]

You don't have to shit on Peter Jackson's films, but it's hypocritical when people praise him for staying consistent with Tolkien but rail against Amazon when they're both doing similar things.

I think what is hypocrital is to compare the amazon and Jackson work as the same thing/level.

Just because they have "changes" don't mean they are he same, there is a gradient of how much is changed, how impactful the changes are and how those changes contradict the world/characters. Like, i understand they changed Aragorn from the books to the movies, but that seems to pale in comparison to what they are doing with the elf lady in the series.

So, to me, in terms of adaptation, is all about a gradient, on what is tolerable, what is done until it break the camel's back(while the lotr movies were fine, the hobbit trilogy broke the camel back imo).

From what they said about the series, is debatable if it can even be called an adaptation, since most of what i read about it, is they making something "new" with some plot points from the appendix B and the movies(?)

Now, this is personal, i would like more something made with new characters, and a new adventure done in the tolkien universe, where they don't use the character he created or using ones he vaguely talk about it, like a story about some random group with the blue wizards against a necromancer or a dragon in some corner of middle earth, or some shit like that.

[Dhrizzle]

I think what is hypocrital is to compare the amazon and Jackson work as the same thing/level.

Just because they have "changes" don't mean they are he same, there is a gradient of how much is changed, how impactful the changes are and how those changes contradict the world/characters. Like, i understand they changed Aragorn from the books to the movies, but that seems to pale in comparison to what they are doing with the elf lady in the series.

So, to me, in terms of adaptation, is all about a gradient, on what is tolerable, what is done until it break the camel's back(while the lotr movies were fine, the hobbit trilogy broke the camel back imo).

From what they said about the series, is debatable if it can even be called an adaptation, since most of what i read about it, is they making something "new" with some plot points from the appendix B and the movies(?)

Now, this is personal, i would like more something made with new characters, and a new adventure done in the tolkien universe, where they don't use the character he created or using ones he vaguely talk about it, like a story about some random group with the blue wizards against a necromancer or a dragon in some corner of middle earth, or some shit like that.

A lot of what Tolkien wrote about Middle Earth comes in broad strokes and he left unpublished many contradictory accounts. We know broadly what happened in the Second Age but exact events are not set in stone. In one of his letters Tolkien wrote;

I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths - which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. ... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.

Now assuming "the elf lady" you are talking about is Galadriel, Christopher Tolkien wrote in the Unfinished Tales,

There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

In letters Tolkien called Galadriel an "Amazon," something he likened to a soldier. She was certainly active in combat during the First Age and it isn't hard to imagine this version of Galadriel continuing as a warrior through the conflicts of the Second. It's worth noting that all elven women will fight in defence but usually only the men will actually go forth in attack. Galadriel was noted as being more like a man in her pursuits, competing athletically and desiring to rule a region of her own in Middle Earth.

Also don't be surprised to see her kicking major amounts of arse. The Sindar (elves like Legolas) were more powerful in those days, the Noldor (Galadriel's faction) were said to be as far above the Sindar as the Sindar were above men, and Galadriel was greatest of the Noldor.

[Syegfryed]

A lot of what Tolkien wrote about Middle Earth comes in broad strokes and he left unpublished many contradictory accounts. We know broadly what happened in the Second Age but exact events are not set in stone. In one of his letters Tolkien wrote;

Ok, thats means people have enough unknowing work to do something new without butchering the events of the already know work.

At least, thi is my take on this.

Now assuming "the elf lady" you are talking about is Galadriel, Christopher Tolkien wrote in the Unfinished Tales,

it seems like she will do her and Celeborn job, and have a different personality all together, that is going to be worse than aragorn changes, from what they told so far.

Also don't be surprised to see her kicking major amounts of arse. The Sindar (elves like Legolas) were more powerful in those days, the Noldor (Galadriel's faction) were said to be as far above the Sindar as the Sindar were above men, and Galadriel was greatest of the Noldor.

Meh, i don't think i will watch if its super elves story, not my cup of tea, i already eye-rolled hard with Peter Jackson boner for then in his trilogies, like out of nowhere those fuck coming to help in Rohan

[Rennadrel]

I think what is hypocrital is to compare the amazon and Jackson work as the same thing/level.

Just because they have "changes" don't mean they are he same, there is a gradient of how much is changed, how impactful the changes are and how those changes contradict the world/characters. Like, i understand they changed Aragorn from the books to the movies, but that seems to pale in comparison to what they are doing with the elf lady in the series.

So, to me, in terms of adaptation, is all about a gradient, on what is tolerable, what is done until it break the camel's back(while the lotr movies were fine, the hobbit trilogy broke the camel back imo).

From what they said about the series, is debatable if it can even be called an adaptation, since most of what i read about it, is they making something "new" with some plot points from the appendix B and the movies(?)

Now, this is personal, i would like more something made with new characters, and a new adventure done in the tolkien universe, where they don't use the character he created or using ones he vaguely talk about it, like a story about some random group with the blue wizards against a necromancer or a dragon in some corner of middle earth, or some shit like that.

Trying to make Galadrial into a warrior when she isn't one at all, just shows how little the people making this show care about staying authentic to Tolkien's work. Not to mention female dwarves have beards and they definitely don't have melanin because why would you if you lived in a fucking mountain for pretty much the entirety of your people's history? Like if they wanted to pander their diversity policies even harder they should have just done a Haradrim story since they are the only race of people in Middle Earth that aren't white. And frankly I'd be cool with that because Far Harad and the Haradrim have a pretty open ended story that could be explored involving their subjugation by the Numenorians, their hatred of Gondor and their eventual fall into servitude to Sauron during the War of the Ring in the Third Age.

[Dhrizzle]

Trying to make Galadrial into a warrior when she isn't one at all, just shows how little the people making this show care about staying authentic to Tolkien's work. Not to mention female dwarves have beards and they definitely don't have melanin because why would you if you lived in a fucking mountain for pretty much the entirety of your people's history? Like if they wanted to pander their diversity policies even harder they should have just done a Haradrim story since they are the only race of people in Middle Earth that aren't white. And frankly I'd be cool with that because Far Harad and the Haradrim have a pretty open ended story that could be explored involving their subjugation by the Numenorians, their hatred of Gondor and their eventual fall into servitude to Sauron during the War of the Ring in the Third Age.

As I mentioned, there is plenty in Tolkien's notes to justify Galadriel being portrayed as a warrior, and he also wrote a list of who in Middle Earth has beards which specified all MALE dwarves. Not saying you do this, but it'd an awesome example of people having a double-standard for the Peter Jackson movies.

BTW melanin probably doesn't work the same in Arda as it does in reality, humans and elves are sentient components of a song, dwarves were handcrafted by Aule and the sun is a piece of fruit. There's no good reason to forbid people with darker skin tones from playing certain roles unless, for some reason, you get upset about seeing them and have to whine about diversity policies or whatever.

[bledgor]

As I mentioned, there is plenty in Tolkien's notes to justify Galadriel being portrayed as a warrior, and he also wrote a list of who in Middle Earth has beards which specified all MALE dwarves. Not saying you do this, but it'd an awesome example of people having a double-standard for the Peter Jackson movies.

BTW melanin probably doesn't work the same in Arda as it does in reality, humans and elves are sentient components of a song, dwarves were handcrafted by Aule and the sun is a piece of fruit. There's no good reason to forbid people with darker skin tones from playing certain roles unless, for some reason, you get upset about seeing them and have to whine about diversity policies or whatever.

No there isnt plenty, there is one mention of it, and considering all the printed material contradicts that and makes her more of a mentor/teacher/leader (outside of war) we should go with that style of Galadrial, not this one time mentioned style of Galadrial. Not to mention so many other issues, like the lack of Celeborn (you know that pesky husband she went everywhere with), the condensing of thousands of years into what a few years they said, and the creation of a new race that didn't exist (harfoots). Oh and if you are okay with black insert non man race, have to accept that the creators of rings of powers are either racist or completely okay with the genocide of all of them considering they don't exist by the time of the lotr.

There is no reason to completely change the lore to insert darker skin tones unless you ONLY care about race because you are a racist (see that stupid ass logic).

When I was a kid we didn't need people to be cardboard cut outs to enjoy them/pretend to be them, hell I loved to be Blade because he was a badass. Instead we are raising people to focus solely on skin, and if someone doesn't share every single characteristic with you, guess you can't pretend to be them.

[Dhrizzle]

No there isnt plenty, there is one mention of it, and considering all the printed material contradicts that and makes her more of a mentor/teacher/leader (outside of war) we should go with that style of Galadrial, not this one time mentioned style of Galadrial.

You know that Tolkien only actually released 3 books set in Middle Earth, and two of those were retconned in after writing? And Galadriel only shows up in one? And that Galadriel in LotR is thousands of years older than the one in the Second Age, having settled into her role as ruler of Lothlorien after the start if the Third Age? All the other printed material is compilations of his notes, letters and unfinished tales which can be wildly contradictory, but the character of a warrior women (or Amazon as Tolkien described her) is definitely what he was working towards.

Not to mention so many other issues, like the lack of Celeborn (you know that pesky husband she went everywhere with).

Which Celeborn? Tolkien wrote several versions, do you want the one who came with her from Valinor, the one she met in the First Age or the one she met towards the end of the Second?

Oh and if you are okay with black insert non man race, have to accept that the creators of rings of powers are either racist or completely okay with the genocide of all of them considering they don't exist by the time of the lotr.

That's completely stupid.

There is no reason to completely change the lore to insert darker skin tones unless you ONLY care about race because you are a racist (see that stupid ass logic).

Skin tone of elves and dwarves has about zero effect on the lore, it just means that the creators don't think that skin colour is a good reason for forbidding actors from playing those roles.

When I was a kid we didn't need people to be cardboard cut outs to enjoy them/pretend to be them, hell I loved to be Blade because he was a badass. Instead we are raising people to focus solely on skin, and if someone doesn't share every single characteristic with you, guess you can't pretend to be them.

For someone trying to say that skin tone shouldn't matter you seem to be getting really upset about skin tone while spewing nonsense.

[bledgor]

...

You disproved none of my points. But whatever you want as long as you get what you want fuck the written word I guess. Even going so far to be cute with Celeborn. No wonder I had you ignored, back to that, ain't got time for that level of ignorance.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Snip

Man as some one who’s not at all invested in LoTR coming back to this thread is always a wild wide it’s the same people complaining about how it goes against Tolkien‘s work with nothing to back it up only to get continually smacked down by more informed people and then to run away and repeat it in a few months.