Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[UnifiedDivide]

I have Prime and watching something there is a pain.

Big agree on this. Its so slow I usually just close it and open Netflix instead lol

[Nyel]

It'd be the height of irony if this turns out to be poorly written fan-fiction.

It will. Everything about it looks like cheap CGI and terrible writing. I am so ashamed they're turning this prestigious and epic brand into something so cringy.

[Grimbold21]

These era elves are supposed to be looking young, yes.

In the beginning, men and elves were immortal. Men sinned (by worshipping Morgoth and blaspheming against Eru) and were thus were cursed and became frail and had short lifespans. Elves didn't. However, Morgoth imbued the whole world with a little bit of his being. A person who eats an apple consumes a tiny bit of Morgoth's evil. These trace amounts of corruption are so small that they weren't apparent early on. However, by the time of LotR (set at the end of the Third Age), the effects of thousands of years of accumulated corruption starts becoming noticeable on the elves. This show takes place during the Second Age so the accumulated corruption shouldn't be noticeable yet.

Did I miss something?

Men were mortal from the get go. Primordial men, so to speak, just had longer lifespans than your average human.

The gift of Illuvatar and all that, that men were "able" to die and have their spirits leave the world.

The only result of Morgoth's corruption, which greatest impact was seen much later, was men beginning to resent that died. Yada, yada and later they invade the undying lands.

[Dhrizzle]

These era elves are supposed to be looking young, yes.

In the beginning, men and elves were immortal. Men sinned (by worshipping Morgoth and blaspheming against Eru) and were thus were cursed and became frail and had short lifespans. Elves didn't. However, Morgoth imbued the whole world with a little bit of his being. A person who eats an apple consumes a tiny bit of Morgoth's evil. These trace amounts of corruption are so small that they weren't apparent early on. However, by the time of LotR (set at the end of the Third Age), the effects of thousands of years of accumulated corruption starts becoming noticeable on the elves. This show takes place during the Second Age so the accumulated corruption shouldn't be noticeable yet.

That's incredibly inaccurate. Elves were the First Born Children of Illuvatar and are immortal, their souls bound to Arda for all time. After a relatively rapid growth phase (becoming equivalent to age 18 after 72 years-of-the-sun) they enter their Life-Years. Their "Youth" lasts around 7000 years of the sun and "Maturity" another 7000. They then enter a time of "Fading" but this is not really dealt with in Tolkien's work as few reached that age by the end of the Third Age. Elves can die through physical trauma or, in essence, great sadness and their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos where they may remain or become Incarnate again.

Men, the Second Born Children of Illuvatar, were always supposed to be mortal, their bodies age and die naturally and their spirits pass through the Halls of Mandos where their fate is known to none, not even the Valar. The only Human known to return from the Halls of Mandos is Beren who was allowed to live out his days with Tinuviel the Elf (part Maiar) who gave up her immortality. This was only allowed by the Valar beseeching Illuvatar.

The Elves of later ages, and particularly those who dwell in Middle Earth, are lesser because they are not spiritually nourished the same way. Living in Valinor close to the Valar under the Light of the Trees created the mightiest of Elves including Feanor and Galadriel. After they came to Middle Earth in the Ages of the Sun their powers and those of their descendents diminished.

There was a race of men ruled over by the half-elven descendents of Beren and Luthien who dwelt on the island of Numenor, positioned halfway between Valinor and Middle Earth. They were rewarded for their acts against Morgoth with long life measurable in centuries. However in generations this long life gave way to a great fear of death and Sauron manipulated them to resent the Valar, eventually leading to a rebellion, the destruction of Numenor and the Closing of the Way where Illuvater made the flat world into a globe with a single path to Valinor that Men could not find. Those who remained loyal and fled before the destruction of Numenor saw their lifespans diminish until most were the same as other races of Men, though their royal line kept some longevity, hence Aragorn being 86 years old during Lord of the Rings and living to be 210.

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I'm on the fence about looks, for a visual medium there needs to be more than costume differentiating characters with similar looks, I don't mind that. Where I get uncomfortable is when a character is completely changed for a show. Galadrial, is NOT full of piss and vinegar (as the showrunners described her) the character in this series is described as 'not the same Galadrial'. It is not 'an interpretation', it is a completely different character -made up and given a book characters name. This was done repeatedly with Wheel of Time.

Instead of bastardising well loved stories, I want to see these studios come up with their own. Galadrial was not a warrior woman stalking around in armour, it isn't necessary to write her as such. Why not write your own character in your own universe instead of trying to ride someone else' coat tails to success. If the general feeling is that the tone of older stories don't match our current age thinking then let them stay in the past and write new stories.

The Galadriel they're presenting in Rings of Power seems to be based on Tolkien's later notes. Her story and character underwent many revisions and Tolkien had barely scratched actual events in this period. Remember the Silmarillion was not a finished piece of work and Christopher Tolkien scraped it together for release after JRR's death. His many notes, letters and unfinished tales tell often contradictory stories. "Full of piss and vinegar" is probably a decent way to describe the restless Galadriel Tolkien described as an "Amazon" (warrior woman) who's mother-name meant "Man-maiden," who chafed under the tutelage of the Valar, fought fiercely against Feanor at the kinslaying and remained ever wary and vigilant for the evil of Sauron after the banishment of Morgoth. Also don't forget that by Tolkien's reckoning of elven aging she was just leaving her "Years of Youth" and entering the "Years of Maturity" at the end of the Third Age when she sailed West (at the end of Lord of the Rings.) Her mortal-equivalent age during the Second Age was early 20s to early 30s.

[Fuiking]

Did I miss something?

Men were mortal from the get go. Primordial men, so to speak, just had longer lifespans than your average human.

The gift of Illuvatar and all that, that men were "able" to die and have their spirits leave the world.

The only result of Morgoth's corruption, which greatest impact was seen much later, was men beginning to resent that died. Yada, yada and later they invade the undying lands.

You missed the Ring of Morgots and the tale of Andreth I think.. which both refer to those things happening.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Did I miss something?

This:

'Yet among my people, from Wise unto Wise out of the darkness, comes the voice saying that Men are not now as they were, nor as their true nature was in the beginning. And clearer still is this said by the Wise of the people of Marach, who have preserved in memory a name for Him that ye call Eru, though in my folk He was almost forgotten. So I learn from Adanel. They say plainly that Men are not by nature short-lived, but have become so through the malice of the Lord of the Darkness whom they do not name.

...

That is not the voice that the Wise hear out of the darkness and from beyond it. Nay, lord, the Wise among Men say: "We were not made for death, nor born ever to die. Death was imposed upon us."

...

[Finrod said,] 'Therefore I say to you, Andreth, what did ye do, ye Men, long ago in the dark? How did ye anger Eru? For otherwise all your tales are but dark dreams devised in a Dark Mind. Will you say what you know or have heard?'
'I will not,' said Andreth. 'We do not speak of this to those of other race. But indeed the Wise are uncertain and speak with contrary voices; but whatever happened long ago, we have fled from it; we have tried to forget, and so long have we tried that now we cannot remember any time when we were not as we are - save only legends of days when death came less swiftly and our span was still far longer, but already there was death.'

'Ye cannot remember?' said Finrod. 'Are there no tales of your days before death, though ye will not tell them to strangers?'

'Maybe,' said Andreth. 'If not among my folk, then among the folk of Adanel, perhaps.' She fell silent, and gazed at the fire.

...

[Andreth said] 'We may have been mortal when we first met the Elves far away, or maybe we were not: our lore does not say, or at least none that I have learned. But we already had our lore, and needed none from the Elves: we knew that in our beginning, we had been born never to die. And by that, my lord, we meant: born to life everlasting, without any shadow of any end.'

[Nerovar]

Extremely bewildering choice to give the elves 16th century plate armor.

[Shadowferal]

Looks...mannish

[tomten]

Feel like Strange New Worlds and the Mandalorian are interested examples here, because they are broadly being accepted as great shows by most fans while stuff like Picard and Book of Boba are widely criticized.

I think it's really as simple as people like good things and hate bad ones!

What Picard? Because lately, i find myself really enjoying the things internet hate on... Like book of boba fat, halo etc etc.

[Dhrizzle]

This:

"But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world;wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope."

It's thought that Andreth's myths are the result of Morgoth or Sauron influencing Men in their earliest days to resent their mortality. This is exploited by Sauron when he convinces the Numenorians they had been deceived by the Valar, and Illuvatar was their creation devised to keep Men in their place. Following this came the attempted invasion of the Undying Lands, the Fall of Numenor and the Changing of the World.

[s_bushido]

Extremely bewildering choice to give the elves 16th century plate armor.

I hope you don't think the stuff in the Jackson movies are the first/only concepts of what elves would wear.

[Nerovar]

I hope you don't think the stuff in the Jackson movies are the first/only concepts of what elves would wear.

What an awfully defensive response.

[s_bushido]

What an awfully defensive response.

...what? My only takeaway from this is that you do think that. Bewildering, indeed.

[Nerovar]

...what? My only takeaway from this is that you do think that. Bewildering, indeed.

Are you capable of reading and engaging with something without bringing your own dull assumptions into the discussion? Keep fighting windmills, I guess.

[Shadowferal]

Considering that the Elves for much of the history were the greatest smiths I should think we will see far better.

[Dhrizzle]

Considering that the Elves for much of the history were the greatest smiths I should think we will see far better.

Elven smiths predominantly made chain mail and besides the dwarves were greater smiths than even the Noldor.

It would be interesting if only the elves of Eregion wore plate to symbolise their friendship with the dwarves of Moria but it's probably a stylistic choice like the Men of Gondor wearing plate in LotR movies.

[DarkAmbient]

Extremely bewildering choice to give the elves 16th century plate armor.

It's already been established that the showrunners don't really care about the integrity of the world Tolkien created so things like this are to be expected.

[Gumble]

It'd be the height of irony if this turns out to be poorly written fan-fiction.

How would that be ironic?

Going by the vast majority of adapted stories in the past 5+ years, how many of them have been anything but poorly written fan-fiction? They almost all end up this way with only a small group of online trolls shilling for them, who generally don't even watch the shows in question.



Honestly, its more ironic if after ALL OF THE NEGATIVE PRESS for this show, it turned out to be utterly faithful to Tolkien and was liked by lots of people.

[Dhrizzle]

It's already been established that the showrunners don't really care about the integrity of the world Tolkien created so things like this are to be expected.

Is that your opinion on Peter Jackson's LotR trilogy too? Genuinely curious as a lot of people who seem to care about the purity of Tolkien's vision are more than happy to handwave changes Jackson made while railing against Amazon.

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How would that be ironic?

Going by the vast majority of adapted stories in the past 5+ years, how many of them have been anything but poorly written fan-fiction? They almost all end up this way with only a small group of online trolls shilling for them, who generally don't even watch the shows in question.



Honestly, its more ironic if after ALL OF THE NEGATIVE PRESS for this show, it turned out to be utterly faithful to Tolkien and was liked by lots of people.

The Boys, Good Omens and The Expanse were all pretty good. American Gods started strong at least.

[Infinity Cubed]

Going by the vast majority of adapted stories in the past 5+ years, how many of them have been anything but poorly written fan-fiction?

Quite a few, actually.

But most of those were passion projects by people who wanted to adapt them. The problem here is a shitty company secured rights to a property because they're just desperate to create a new Game of Thrones. That's how you end up with drek like what this is almost assuredly going to be. It only adds to the garbage when they then go on to hire people for their names rather than their interest in the actual property; see anything Michael Bay or J.J. Abrams put their disgusting hands on, such as The Transformers and Star Wars/Trek.

It extends past adaptations, too. For example, it's why a show like The Mandalorian rocks while the entire sequel Star Wars trilogy was utter tripe.