1. #1421
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    It will be worse because of how mean spirited this project is.
    Rafe of Time was made by a dude who is on record as saying his favorite ajah in the red, it's kind of hard for it to be even more mean spirited.

  2. #1422
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Back on the planet Bal, where the Balrogs come from, I don't doubt at all there are females there. Maybe Morgoth didn't take any females with him aboard his interdimensional spaceship back to Middle-Earth to fight the Noldor, Tolkien skipped some of the specifics here.

    You made me choke on my dessert with this comment. Thank you for that. No seriously, it was actually quite funny.

  3. #1423
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Rafe of Time was made by a dude who is on record as saying his favorite ajah in the red, it's kind of hard for it to be even more mean spirited.
    Amazon waited for Christopher Tolkien to die before they began shitting on Tolkien's legacy. The day Christopher Tolkien died, they fired the actors, recast the show, and completely changed it. They gloated on twitter about it. While his body was still warm. That tells you everything you need to know about how despicable these people are. It absolutely is about destroying Tolkien.

  4. #1424
    Herald of the Titans rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Isnt that Goblins who dont like light? there were orcs at Minas Tirith siege during the day, as well as many other places during the day time
    during the siege of minas tirith and the battle of the pellennor fields, prior to any troops taking the field Sauron sent forth a great storm cloud to cover the land between the mountains of Ephel Dúath and the city of minas tirith, in order to shroud the sunlight from the marching hordes of orcs and other fell creatures that answered Saurons call to war. it is Goblins that have the best time in the sun of all the 'evil creatures' of the world, goblins of middle earth were usually great hulking creatures with thick leathery skin and great muscle mass, what you're getting confused about are the small little moria screechers which are more akin to orcs than to goblins.

  5. #1425
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Amazon waited for Christopher Tolkien to die before they began shitting on Tolkien's legacy. The day Christopher Tolkien died, they fired the actors, recast the show, and completely changed it. They gloated on twitter about it. While his body was still warm. That tells you everything you need to know about how despicable these people are. It absolutely is about destroying Tolkien.
    They did the same shit with Jordan my dude.

  6. #1426
    Quote Originally Posted by Bladesyphon View Post
    You made me choke on my dessert with this comment. Thank you for that. No seriously, it was actually quite funny.
    It's even funnier seeing the posts replying to it about how ridiculous a fanfic like this is, while defending... get this, a ridiculous fanfic. But because it's big budget and coming to Amazon, it MUST be more true to Tolkiens work!

  7. #1427
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    It never cease to amaze me how people already have their verdict ready when not a single second has aired yet.

  8. #1428
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Amazon waited for Christopher Tolkien to die before they began shitting on Tolkien's legacy. The day Christopher Tolkien died, they fired the actors, recast the show, and completely changed it. They gloated on twitter about it.
    Oh, this should be good. Give me a source.

  9. #1429
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    I kinda liked the screenshots of the new orcs. Weren't the orcs spawned from elves after all.
    The LOTR movies of bulky warriors (not talking about Uruk-hai) with twice the body mass made no sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    With the right amount of fear put in their heart by their masters, they will march under the sun. It'll suck every step of the way, but they'll do it
    Dont bring US GOP politics into this thread please
    Last edited by Bakis; 2022-06-24 at 04:12 AM.
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

  10. #1430
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    The LOTR movies of bulky warriors (not talking about Uruk-hai) with twice the body mass made no sense to me.
    I don't remember them showing orcs that were that much bigger than what you'd expect from a juiced human/elf. Well...there were those couple of hero orcs in the Hobbit movies, but it seems pretty easy to explain the handful of large ones by them receiving extra favor/power from their dark lord, or evolution over thousands of years of combat.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-06-24 at 05:14 AM.

  11. #1431
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    Yeah, i dont know anyone who loved and grew upp with Tolkien that isnt excited about this show. All the hate and drama is hilarious.
    Lifelong Tolkien fan here. This about perfectly sums up how I feel about it:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Tolkien was *very* protective of his IP as was his son. I feel that this adaptation is already done in bad faith purely from the representation of Galadriel. I think the phrase the showrunners used to describe her was 'full of piss and vinegar'. That is not the character Tolkien wrote, anyone who has read his works knows that. It feels as if they're sat there laughing 'well we own the rights now so we can do what the hell we like'. This is not someone like Stephen King who signs off the rights and almost hopes for the best. There's a quote from him something along the lines of 'its like sending your kids out in the world, you've done your best with them and now you have to leave them to make their own way'

    Regardless of any extraneous messaging, the showrunners have already blatantly gone against the wishes of the author and for that reason, I'm not hopeful.
    As someone who has read Tolkien's works, his take on Galadriel was never fixed and the precise details of her history wandered over the years, but here are a few of his words on her,
    "[Galadriel] was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats"
    "she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor,"
    and
    "She fought fiercely in defence of her motherkin against Feanor"
    Galadriel, despairing now of Valinor and horrified by the violence and cruelty of Feanor, set sail into the darkness without waiting for Manwe’s leave, which would undoubtedly have been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself. It was thus that she came under the ban set upon all departure, and Valinor was shut against her return.
    Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle Earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the domination of Middle Earth of which she had dreamed, and her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle Earth forever.
    And finally, in the Appendices of LotR,
    "when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."

    All the above quotes are from Tolkien, at various places in the Legendarium. They describe a woman who:

    Fought (as in elves killing elves with swords) her father's people because she despised what they were doing (stealing the Sea-Elves ships and killing them if they fought back).

    Left the Blessed Realm by herself, defying the Gods and the elves alike.

    Told the Gods "no thanks" when offered absolution and a return to paradise.

    And finally, sans Ring, personally ripped Sauron's #2 stronghold apart.

    Now, there's a lot of huge gaps in Tolkien's writings on Galadriel, particularly in the Second Age. For example, there's nothing about her actions during the Last Alliance, even though she's described as one of Sauron's greatest foes. But 'full of piss and vinegar' seems a very apt description of her younger self, many long centuries and centuries before the Fellowship meets her in Lothlorien. That doesn't mean the show will be good, but from the little they've shown so far, their depiction of, to quote the good Professor again, "the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe" seems fine.
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  12. #1432
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    "the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe"
    And to be sure, she literally gave said Fëanor the middle finger straight in his face. Three times.

    She is the OG badass of Tolkien's world.

  13. #1433
    Oh cool maybe we're gonna have a tear jerking romance between Elrond and a female orc lady fighting against the tyranny of her dark lord and patriarchy society.

    Yes, wouldn't surprise me anymore.

  14. #1434
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    during the siege of minas tirith and the battle of the pellennor fields, prior to any troops taking the field Sauron sent forth a great storm cloud to cover the land between the mountains of Ephel Dúath and the city of minas tirith, in order to shroud the sunlight from the marching hordes of orcs and other fell creatures that answered Saurons call to war. it is Goblins that have the best time in the sun of all the 'evil creatures' of the world, goblins of middle earth were usually great hulking creatures with thick leathery skin and great muscle mass, what you're getting confused about are the small little moria screechers which are more akin to orcs than to goblins.
    I think its in the Hobbit where its mentioned that neither like daylight, but by Lord of the Rings its only mentioned that away about Goblins, where as Orcs can come out in daylight (with the whole cloud of darkness thing). I know that in the movies both Goblins and Orcs were seen in light, so maybe I am getting my wires crossed somewhere, its been a while since i went over the books. :P
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

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  15. #1435
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    This quote is saying they are evil so..
    Just not created to be evil as God does not create evil, they were twisted to be by Morgoth. The "pre-existing real beings" being Elves.

    I'm not sure Tolkien thought ahead enough to think someday his IP would be hijacked by producers looking to bankroll on people's nostalgia.

    Even doubly ironic, it's not Tolkien's actual vision this show will be capitalizing off of and drawing source material from - its Peter Jackson's. Because they aren't actually going to be writing screenplay for the Silmarillion, thats a book only the few diehard fans show interest in. They are spinning off of the LotR trilogy that made big hollywood money, looking to slice a piece for themselves.

    But anyone who is a fan of LotR enough to have read the books is already aware Peter Jackson only loosely stuck to the source material, and the hobbit trilogy again attempted to capitalize on the success of the original trilogy to mixed reception.

    I guess it's up to the individual to decide just how much deviation from someone's original story is enough to justify calling it fanfic. Hobbit was a made for Hollywood bastardizing of a slim book, this Amazon show I would consider entirely fanfic. I'm not saying it will be bad, but I am predicting it won't be good.
    The thing with Rings of Power is by concentrating on the Second Age they have more of a blank canvas to work with. Tolkien never finalised the exact events of those times and several conflicting accounts and ideas exist for the writers to play around with. If nothing else I'm very interested to see which of Tolkien's writings they will draw inspiration from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Really because every single Tolkein fan I know of think its a nostalgia cash grab from one of the worst mega corporations to exist.
    The people I see complaining mostly seem to be fans of internet drama or people who think Tolkien was just a scriptwriter for Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    It's bizarre that people nowadays are so wrapped up in the idea of their childhood stories being some sort of sacred text that should not be tampered with. For thousands of years people have been retelling and re-imagining classic stories, from the mythologies of the ancient world, to the sagas of the middle ages, to the classic works of people like Shakespeare, Austen, Poe, Dickens, and so many others in between and since.

    Tolkien built a mythology of his own, but took plenty of inspiration from those that came before him. I'm sure if he knew how his works have endured, evolved, and inspired other storytellers he'd be elated. The best stories and characters stand the test of time not because they are perfect ONLY in their original form, but rather because they present themes, teach lessons, and create worlds that can be adapted. Things like "elves are always white skinned" and "orcs are always evil" are hardly the defining pillars of Tolkien's work.
    "I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths - which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. ... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Except this story is written by a particular person and hasn't been randomly passed down, the original is there and it has it's own world.

    If you come in and make sweeping changes to that world, then it is no longer that world any longer.
    Except Tolkien never wrote a finished story for this time period, outside of the LotR appendix there are just lots of unpublished notes that frequently contradict themselves as his ideas changed in the decades following LotR being published.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Isnt that Goblins who dont like light? there were orcs at Minas Tirith siege during the day, as well as many other places during the day time
    Orcs and goblins are synonymous in Tolkien's world, though goblins often seem different as that term is mostly used in The Hobbit which is a children's book retconned into his Middle Earth myths after publishing.

    Anyway it's just sunlight that the Orcs hate as it comes from the Valar. Originally it had something to do with the Orcs being created before the sun but Tolkien apparently planned to change the cosmology so it always existed, dunno if he intended for that to change the orcs' relationship to the sun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The whole discussion about "good" Orcs is facetious.

    Even if we assume that is "possible" because Tolkien didn't philosophically rule out for Orcs to be redeemed, it still doesn't answer the question why you would even focus on this most unlikely event that never actually happened as far as Tolkien's writings are concerned. Doesn't the act of filling out the most vague narrative spaces Tolkien deliberately didn't touch on already constitute a subversion of his work?

    If large parts of your adaptation are focused on some very unlikely possibilities that only exist because of some offhand remark Tolkien made in a letter then you're already missing the mark. Because at that point you are evidently making a choice to not tell the stories Tolkien was interested in and instead focus on open questions Tolkien considered unimportant or uncomfortable at the time to fill them with your own dreck.
    Isn't it more respectful to look at Tolkien's ideas and fill in the stories he never got around to completing, rather than taking the stories he had completed and changing them foe your own purposes?

    If they do follow Tolkien's ideas about Orcs not being completely irredeemable this time period is probably the best stage for it. Many Orcs at this point are homeless and masterless following the War of Wrath, a good time to show them more deserving of pity than loathing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.
    Other Maia (including Sauron) were given the chance to repent so it stands to reason the Balrogs would have been too, though it seems that for their spirits to clothe themselves as Balrogs requires a dedication to Morgoth such that they would never accept forgiveness from the Valar.

    All the Ainu were male or female in spirit though this was not necessarily reflected in their form and Tolkien didn't go in to enough detail to definitely say if they were gendered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    The weird part of all this Orc creationism and their origin is that we see in two towers fresh Orcs being birthed out of a mud pit or something. Since this show is based off Peter Jackson's work I wonder how that plays in to the story, or why they have a need for birthing persons
    It isn't directly based on Jackson's interpretation of LotR, it's their own thing based on the writings of Tolkien.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Over time, since this show was announced, it has only created a longer and longer shadow of dread. It seems like the more info comes out of the show, that the focus seems less about making a tolkien show and about making a generic fantasy-exploration show, like all the other fantasy shows out there.

    Its really a shame. Im not one to judge a show or story before it has been presented, but i think you can judge intent and design before a thing is published, and Rings of Power does not have a good intent if we look at what it pushes onto the public. The show tries to push inclusivity, story-analyses and bringing a modern story, when the original content does not really guide to that.

    I wish Rings of Power the best really, but i would not be surprised if this show ends up being another Wheel of Time, Shadow and Bone or Carnival Row, which while not being outright bad, is just bland and does not stand out as anything worth paying attention to.
    I definitely disagree with you here. The more I read about the show the more it looks like the creators have been delving into the more obscure parts of what Tolkien wrote. That doesn't meant it will definitely be good but it will certainly be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Maiar is simply another word for 'alien' beings not from Middle Earth. They are "fallen" in the sense that they came from another planet, or "the sky". Please don't imply my take is hot garbage before it's even been fully released.
    Maiar refers specifically to members of the Ainur who are lesser than the Valar. They took part in the music of Illuvatar before the creation of Arda and went down into the world to prepare it for the coming of the Children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Only difference between my half-assed fanfic and Rings of Power is a hollywood budget behind it, lol.
    That and your total lack of reference to what Tolkien had to say on the matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Well, the problem arises from the fact that it's pretty much untread territory. Female orcs are never shown or even mentioned within any of Tolkien's writings and for good reason. The only mention of them is from a letter where Tolkien concedes that they must have existed but are never seen as orcs only really appear as soldiers . Therefor it begs the question what you stand to gain from the inclusion of female orcs. Either you portray them like the (male) orcs we know and love/hate by turning them into soldiers (which already contradicts the only mention of female orcs that we have) or you simply make shit up about their "domestic lives". The latter could also open up an entirely different can of worms because showing orc women or even children unnecessarily humanizes them in a way that wasn't really intended by Tolkien because it completely defeats their purpose in regards to his stories.
    At the time period Rings of Power is set the Orcs had been scattered following Morgoth's defeat and the destruction of Beleriand. This means they won't be seen in organised military groups as seen in LotR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    ...Because Tolkien stated that there must have been orc women but we don't know much about them because we only see orcs as soldiers which implies that these soldiers aren't women. Also Elven women generally aren't warriors.
    All Elven women would fight in defence of their homes but generally it was only the men who would organise into attacking armies, the notable exceptions being Galadriel the "man-maiden."

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    <snip>
    What a pile of absolute rot. The standout part is you not knowing that the Harfoots very much exist in Tolkien's work, though special mention has to go to your twisted logic that leaving racial discrimination out of the casting decisions somehow detracts from the escapism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Amazon waited for Christopher Tolkien to die before they began shitting on Tolkien's legacy. The day Christopher Tolkien died, they fired the actors, recast the show, and completely changed it. They gloated on twitter about it. While his body was still warm. That tells you everything you need to know about how despicable these people are. It absolutely is about destroying Tolkien.
    I don't think Christopher Tolkien would have cared though. He was scathing enough about the LogR trilogy and had pretty much totally checked out by the time the Hobbits films came out.

  16. #1436
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post

    Isn't it more respectful to look at Tolkien's ideas and fill in the stories he never got around to completing, rather than taking the stories he had completed and changing them foe your own purposes?

    If they do follow Tolkien's ideas about Orcs not being completely irredeemable this time period is probably the best stage for it. Many Orcs at this point are homeless and masterless following the War of Wrath, a good time to show them more deserving of pity than loathing.
    It's not more "respectful" since we're not talking about "completing Tolkien's ideas" here. Tolkien never really humanised or redeemed his orcs. That has nothing to do with a lack of time or the fact that much of his work only exists in fragments. He simply didn't intend to because he knew it would heavily clash with the kind of stories he told. The only reason why he didn't describe the orcs as outright irredeemable was because of his Christian worldview that heavily influenced LOTR but in that context we're more talking about some kind of spiritual redemption. They are still "naturally bad" and irredeemable to Elves and Men.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  17. #1437
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    The weird part of all this Orc creationism and their origin is that we see in two towers fresh Orcs being birthed out of a mud pit or something. Since this show is based off Peter Jackson's work I wonder how that plays in to the story, or why they have a need for birthing persons
    To be fair, we only saw that for Saruman's Uruk-Hai, which could be created entierly differently than normal Orcs. I imagine they could be more like lab/test-tube babies, or even clones or something rather than natural born Orcs, simply because they are said to be a fusion of Orcs and Men created through magic and alchemy.

  18. #1438
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's not more "respectful" since we're not talking about "completing Tolkien's ideas" here. Tolkien never really humanised or redeemed his orcs. That has nothing to do with a lack of time or the fact that much of his work only exists in fragments. He simply didn't intend to because he knew it would heavily clash with the kind of stories he told. The only reason why he didn't describe the orcs as outright irredeemable was because of his Christian worldview that heavily influenced LOTR but in that context we're more talking about some kind of spiritual redemption. They are still "naturally bad" and irredeemable to Elves and Men.
    We're talking about telling a story in an age Tolken has not fully realised. This is something he had spoken of quite positively in letters, whereas he was definitely not happy with the idea of people changing stories and dialogue he had put to paper.

  19. #1439
    Herald of the Titans rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The thing with Rings of Power is by concentrating on the Second Age they have more of a blank canvas to work with. Tolkien never finalised the exact events of those times and several conflicting accounts and ideas exist for the writers to play around with. If nothing else I'm very interested to see which of Tolkien's writings they will draw inspiration from.

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    The people I see complaining mostly seem to be fans of internet drama or people who think Tolkien was just a scriptwriter for Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings.

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    "I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths - which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. ... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."

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    Except Tolkien never wrote a finished story for this time period, outside of the LotR appendix there are just lots of unpublished notes that frequently contradict themselves as his ideas changed in the decades following LotR being published.

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    Orcs and goblins are synonymous in Tolkien's world, though goblins often seem different as that term is mostly used in The Hobbit which is a children's book retconned into his Middle Earth myths after publishing.

    Anyway it's just sunlight that the Orcs hate as it comes from the Valar. Originally it had something to do with the Orcs being created before the sun but Tolkien apparently planned to change the cosmology so it always existed, dunno if he intended for that to change the orcs' relationship to the sun.

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    Isn't it more respectful to look at Tolkien's ideas and fill in the stories he never got around to completing, rather than taking the stories he had completed and changing them foe your own purposes?

    If they do follow Tolkien's ideas about Orcs not being completely irredeemable this time period is probably the best stage for it. Many Orcs at this point are homeless and masterless following the War of Wrath, a good time to show them more deserving of pity than loathing.

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    Other Maia (including Sauron) were given the chance to repent so it stands to reason the Balrogs would have been too, though it seems that for their spirits to clothe themselves as Balrogs requires a dedication to Morgoth such that they would never accept forgiveness from the Valar.

    All the Ainu were male or female in spirit though this was not necessarily reflected in their form and Tolkien didn't go in to enough detail to definitely say if they were gendered.

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    It isn't directly based on Jackson's interpretation of LotR, it's their own thing based on the writings of Tolkien.

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    I definitely disagree with you here. The more I read about the show the more it looks like the creators have been delving into the more obscure parts of what Tolkien wrote. That doesn't meant it will definitely be good but it will certainly be interesting.

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    Maiar refers specifically to members of the Ainur who are lesser than the Valar. They took part in the music of Illuvatar before the creation of Arda and went down into the world to prepare it for the coming of the Children.

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    That and your total lack of reference to what Tolkien had to say on the matter.

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    At the time period Rings of Power is set the Orcs had been scattered following Morgoth's defeat and the destruction of Beleriand. This means they won't be seen in organised military groups as seen in LotR.

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    All Elven women would fight in defence of their homes but generally it was only the men who would organise into attacking armies, the notable exceptions being Galadriel the "man-maiden."

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    What a pile of absolute rot. The standout part is you not knowing that the Harfoots very much exist in Tolkien's work, though special mention has to go to your twisted logic that leaving racial discrimination out of the casting decisions somehow detracts from the escapism.

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    I don't think Christopher Tolkien would have cared though. He was scathing enough about the LogR trilogy and had pretty much totally checked out by the time the Hobbits films came out.
    please show me the exact line of text in any of the Lord of the Rings books, or the Hobbit book where these creatures are mentioned to have lived during the years of the second age, don't worry i'll wait.

    i still haven't seen anybody able to come up with a valid reason as to how a black dwarf could exist in the world when they live exclusively underground and rarely see sunlight, not to mention the lack of facial hair which is canon to exist and yet Amazon and these show runners seem to disagree with that, and the whole super elf with shaven head who would never have existed in the middle earth universe but somehow is a 'faithful adaptation' by these showrunners speaks volumes to your sycophancy, and then shoehorning in a taboo romance that's purely fan fiction, a rewritten galadriel who is purely fan fiction, and Elrond who is nothing like his canonical character once again a pure fabrication of fan fiction from these show runners, so tell me again with a straight face where i'm wrong and how this show is going to be the 'best thing ever' because i'm not seeing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The Elven backstory also makes more sense because Melkor hates the elves. The Valar went to war against Melkor in the first place for the sake of protecting the elves. He was captured and imprisoned for three ages for their sake. The elves were the favorite of his archenemies. It is no wonder then that Melkor would try twisting them into a mockery, trying to get back at the Valar, whilst favoring the race of Men, whom the Valar had seemingly abandoned. Even Sauron played up the Valar's favoritism of the Elves to stir up the Numenorans against them.
    The problem with that is that orcs would be immortal, and would definitely bring problems with his idea and concept of men and elvish afterlife. And, Everything Melkor/Morgoth created usually became more powerful, like dragons made out of lizards.

    In fact, this was one of the theories he came up after the idea of corrupted elves, that orcs were beasts animated by the will of Morgoth, thus explanning their characters of smaller than men, more bruttish, with yellow eyes, fanged teeth and the nose.

    Then there is theories that orcs were Fallen Maiar, who breed like Melian. Being fallen Maiar and "demonic/evil spirits" actually take direct context from the original meaning of the word orc/ork/orcenas who means "evil spirits" or spectres or even hell devil. which is funny cause there is Maiar who took the form of orcs in the lore afaik

    From what i read about, the last letters of tolkien talk of how he was rewriting the first age, and so, leaning to the idea of orcs being corrupted men again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The thing with Rings of Power is by concentrating on the Second Age they have more of a blank canvas to work with. Tolkien never finalised the exact events of those times and several conflicting accounts and ideas exist for the writers to play around with. If nothing else I'm very interested to see which of Tolkien's writings they will draw inspiration from.
    They didn't already straight up said, they will not take any of his writings as inspiration, and instead, create th story tolkien never did? like, from what i read, they can only use appendix B, so they rly don't have much, thats why they will make like events who take years apart to be quickly followed

    Anyway it's just sunlight that the Orcs hate as it comes from the Valar. Originally it had something to do with the Orcs being created before the sun but Tolkien apparently planned to change the cosmology so it always existed, dunno if he intended for that to change the orcs' relationship to the sun.

    Probably as some of then,(not counting the uruk-hai, didn't seem to be much affected by it.


    Its also funny to see how much tolkiien was going to rewrite before he died

    It isn't directly based on Jackson's interpretation of LotR, it's their own thing based on the writings of Tolkien.
    The Jackson interpretation for creating the hybrids comes from the very first draft of orc creation "bred by Morgoth from the heats and the slimes of the earth", but then he decided only Ilúvatar could create sentient life

    At the time period Rings of Power is set the Orcs had been scattered following Morgoth's defeat and the destruction of Beleriand. This means they won't be seen in organised military groups as seen in LotR.
    Good to point that out that without the influence of Morgoth, and the later influence of Sauron, the Orcs were pretty much independent in places like blue mountains, living a "normal society" who had their own conflicts against each other and other races.

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