1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    If large parts of your adaptation
    Christ... So we've gone from some rando on the forums saying "I bet they're gonna do this" to "large parts of the adaptation!!!" in the span of a dozen posts. Get a fucking grip.

  2. #1442
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.

  3. #1443
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The whole discussion about "good" Orcs is facetious.

    Even if we assume that is "possible" because Tolkien didn't philosophically rule out for Orcs to be redeemed, it still doesn't answer the question why you would even focus on this most unlikely event that never actually happened as far as Tolkien's writings are concerned. Doesn't the act of filling out the most vague narrative spaces Tolkien deliberately didn't touch on already constitute a subversion of his work?

    If large parts of your adaptation are focused on some very unlikely possibilities that only exist because of some offhand remark Tolkien made in a letter then you're already missing the mark. Because at that point you are evidently making a choice to not tell the stories Tolkien was interested in and instead focus on open questions Tolkien considered unimportant or uncomfortable at the time.
    I mean, this isn't all about what this series is? just taking some tidbits of one appendix of one of the tolkien works and making up a story on it?

    Like, they are focusing on things that never actually happened, so, this isnt new

  4. #1444
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Christ... So we've gone from some rando on the forums saying "I bet they're gonna do this" to "large parts of the adaptation!!!" in the span of a dozen posts. Get a fucking grip.
    We're all arguing about hypotheticals since the show isn't actually out. The fact that we're going to see the side of the Orcs with multiple "lovable" female Orc characters already seems to indicate that a decent amount of time will be used on their characterisation. But good to know that you cannot actually engage with the argument because you choose to get hung up on the word 'large'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.
    Yeah this is basically the level of apologetics we can see from the usual preemptively obedient honor guard of corporate media.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  5. #1445
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    This quote is saying they are evil so..
    Just not created to be evil as God does not create evil, they were twisted to be by Morgoth. The "pre-existing real beings" being Elves.
    He said the orcs were creatures corrupted by evil, so, naturally evil, but said they were not irredeemable, so, they can be saved.

    Which is of course the base of Tolkien religion, everyone can be saved, no matter what they did, how foul they were, etc.

    Also, Tolkien never finished the orcs creation, so there is no "real canon" of how they came to be, he had like, 5 theories written, the last one, and prob the one that make most sense(taking account how orcs work, the timeline, etc) is that they were in truth corrupted men, not elves. Of course the elven theory is more popular because his son chose to publish that one.

  6. #1446
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    He said the orcs were creatures corrupted by evil, so, naturally evil, but said they were not irredeemable, so, they can be saved.

    Which is of course the base of Tolkien religion, everyone can be saved, no matter what they did, how foul they were, etc.

    Also, Tolkien never finished the orcs creation, so there is no "real canon" of how they came to be, he had like, 5 theories written, the last one, and prob the one that make most sense(taking account how orcs work, the timeline, etc) is that they were in truth corrupted men, not elves. Of course the elven theory is more popular because his son chose to publish that one.
    The weird part of all this Orc creationism and their origin is that we see in two towers fresh Orcs being birthed out of a mud pit or something. Since this show is based off Peter Jackson's work I wonder how that plays in to the story, or why they have a need for birthing persons

  7. #1447
    Pit Lord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Can't wait to see strong Orc women showing Elves and Humans who's boss.
    https://www.ign.com/articles/rings-of-power-female-orcs
    What's wrong with female orcs? They are made from elves anyways, and you know, elves also have girls.

  8. #1448
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.
    I'm not sure why you'd say this as if it wasn't possible for someone to write a story like that...

    I'm also not sure why there's this sudden obsession with one-dimensional characters.

  9. #1449
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.
    On the other hand I'm sure he wrote somewhere that Balrogs (as Maiar) were primeval spirits who took mortal forms according to their temperaments.

  10. #1450
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Over time, since this show was announced, it has only created a longer and longer shadow of dread. It seems like the more info comes out of the show, that the focus seems less about making a tolkien show and about making a generic fantasy-exploration show, like all the other fantasy shows out there.

    Its really a shame. Im not one to judge a show or story before it has been presented, but i think you can judge intent and design before a thing is published, and Rings of Power does not have a good intent if we look at what it pushes onto the public. The show tries to push inclusivity, story-analyses and bringing a modern story, when the original content does not really guide to that.

    I wish Rings of Power the best really, but i would not be surprised if this show ends up being another Wheel of Time, Shadow and Bone or Carnival Row, which while not being outright bad, is just bland and does not stand out as anything worth paying attention to.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  11. #1451
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The whole discussion about "good" Orcs is facetious.

    Even if we assume that is "possible" because Tolkien didn't philosophically rule out for Orcs to be redeemed, it still doesn't answer the question why you would even focus on this most unlikely event that never actually happened as far as Tolkien's writings are concerned. Doesn't the act of filling out the most vague narrative spaces Tolkien deliberately didn't touch on already constitute a subversion of his work?

    If large parts of your adaptation are focused on some very unlikely possibilities that only exist because of some offhand remark Tolkien made in a letter then you're already missing the mark. Because at that point you are evidently making a choice to not tell the stories Tolkien was interested in and instead focus on open questions Tolkien considered unimportant or uncomfortable at the time to fill them with your own dreck.
    From the sounds of it the whole second age didn’t happen as far as Tolkien's writings is concerned as he apparently left it mostly blank. So the very nature of The show is to tell stories Tolkien wasn’t interested in/felt unimportant/didn’t have time to get to.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  12. #1452
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    I'm not sure why you'd say this as if it wasn't possible for someone to write a story like that...

    I'm also not sure why there's this sudden obsession with one-dimensional characters.
    Back on the planet Bal, where the Balrogs come from, I don't doubt at all there are females there. Maybe Morgoth didn't take any females with him aboard his interdimensional spaceship back to Middle-Earth to fight the Noldor, Tolkien skipped some of the specifics here.
    Last edited by Al Gorefiend; 2022-06-23 at 01:26 PM.

  13. #1453
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Or, and hear me out, there's LOTR fans out there, like me, who don't judge media before it actually comes out, recognizing that PR and promotional material is often bad and unfinished, or overexposed, or just outright misleading.
    PR material these days has millions of dollars poured into it and usually looks better than what we get.

    There's a few odd productions with PR that makes it look worse than it actually is, but its usually few and far between.

  14. #1454
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    The weird part of all this Orc creationism and their origin is that we see in two towers fresh Orcs being birthed out of a mud pit or something. Since this show is based off Peter Jackson's work I wonder how that plays in to the story, or why they have a need for birthing persons
    Funny enough, the bit about orcs being birthed out of mud pits si actually one of the, if the THE original creation of orcs from tolkien.

    His first draft, is that orcs were created from the mud of the earth and their hearts were stone(something along this lines, i don't remember the actual wording he did use)

    Then he skip this, because he came up with the idea of "evil cannot create just corrupt kind of deal, so his second draft is that he made so that orcs were actual animals, like worgs, that were given human form, which coincide of how Morgoth create some of his "monsters" like turning lizards into dragons.

    Then he said orcs were Fallen Maiar, and there is actually fallen Maiar that took the form of orcs(there is like 3 or 5 of then).

    then he scrap all of that, and said orcs were corrupted elves, but quickly didn't like this very much because would imply orcs would have elven souls, would be immortal, and would make some weird shenanigans, the timeline also didn't made sense, so he scrap that and start working on orcs being humans corrupted.

    In the movie they used the first, to depict the creation of the hybrids of man-orc, so i guess, this will not be touched.

  15. #1455
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Back on the planet Bal, where the Balrogs come from, I don't doubt at all there are females there. Maybe Morgoth didn't take any females with him aboard his interdimensional spaceship back to Middle-Earth to fight the Noldor, Tolkien skipped some of the specifics here.
    So you don't know that Balrogs were fallen Maiar, and that some of those took female forms? Fascinating. I guess no one should take you seriously ever again if you start complaining about the sanctity of Tolkien's work...seeing as you clearly know jack shit about it.

  16. #1456
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    It's bizarre that people nowadays are so wrapped up in the idea of their childhood stories being some sort of sacred text that should not be tampered with. For thousands of years people have been retelling and re-imagining classic stories, from the mythologies of the ancient world, to the sagas of the middle ages, to the classic works of people like Shakespeare, Austen, Poe, Dickens, and so many others in between and since.

    Tolkien built a mythology of his own, but took plenty of inspiration from those that came before him. I'm sure if he knew how his works have endured, evolved, and inspired other storytellers he'd be elated. The best stories and characters stand the test of time not because they are perfect ONLY in their original form, but rather because they present themes, teach lessons, and create worlds that can be adapted. Things like "elves are always white skinned" and "orcs are always evil" are hardly the defining pillars of Tolkien's work.
    This is a bit like saying Iron Man and Captain America are Greek gods. They aren't, because they're not. If you want to change Tolkien, make your own IP.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  17. #1457
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    So you don't know that Balrogs were fallen Maiar, and that some of those took female forms? Fascinating. I guess no one should take you seriously ever again if you start complaining about the sanctity of Tolkien's work...seeing as you clearly know jack shit about it.
    Maiar is simply another word for 'alien' beings not from Middle Earth. They are "fallen" in the sense that they came from another planet, or "the sky". Please don't imply my take is hot garbage before it's even been fully released.

  18. #1458
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Isnt that Goblins who dont like light? there were orcs at Minas Tirith siege during the day, as well as many other places during the day time
    From glyphweb;

    Little is known for certain of the beginnings of the Orcs, the footsoldiers of the Enemy. It is said that they were in origin corrupted Elves captured by Melkor before the beginning of the First Age. In appearance, Orcs were squat, swarthy creatures. Most of them preferred the darkness, being blinded by the light of the Sun, but the kinds bred later in the Third Age such as the Uruk-hai could endure the daylight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.
    I'm sure the "evil" part is comfortably covered by the "serving Morgoth" bit.

  19. #1459
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Maiar is simply another word for 'alien' beings not from Middle Earth. They are "fallen" in the sense that they came from another planet, or "the sky". Please don't imply my take is hot garbage before it's even been fully released.
    Utterly worthless.

  20. #1460
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Maiar is simply another word for 'alien' beings not from Middle Earth. They are "fallen" in the sense that they came from another planet, or "the sky". Please don't imply my take is hot garbage before it's even been fully released.
    Under notes for Maiar

    We're given no explanation of the word Maiar, and only scarce clues to even point to a possible meaning. In earlier texts, before the word Maiar had appeared, these beings were known as Vanimor the 'Beautiful' (with a corresponding Úvanimor, the 'Ugly', for the monsters of Morgoth). The word Maiar first arose in an amendment to a reference to the Vanimor, so there is evidence that the word Maiar can also be taken to mean the 'Beautiful'. It is perhaps curious that this would make beings such as Balrogs 'beautiful', as they were also accounted Maiar. In fact there is an alternative, negative version of the word, Úmaiar (equivalent to older Úvanimor), used for beings such as this who entered the service of Melkor.

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