1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    It's bizarre that people nowadays are so wrapped up in the idea of their childhood stories being some sort of sacred text that should not be tampered with. For thousands of years people have been retelling and re-imagining classic stories, from the mythologies of the ancient world, to the sagas of the middle ages, to the classic works of people like Shakespeare, Austen, Poe, Dickens, and so many others in between and since.

    Tolkien built a mythology of his own, but took plenty of inspiration from those that came before him. I'm sure if he knew how his works have endured, evolved, and inspired other storytellers he'd be elated. The best stories and characters stand the test of time not because they are perfect ONLY in their original form, but rather because they present themes, teach lessons, and create worlds that can be adapted. Things like "elves are always white skinned" and "orcs are always evil" are hardly the defining pillars of Tolkien's work.
    This is a bit like saying Iron Man and Captain America are Greek gods. They aren't, because they're not. If you want to change Tolkien, make your own IP.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  2. #1442
    Titan Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    So you don't know that Balrogs were fallen Maiar, and that some of those took female forms? Fascinating. I guess no one should take you seriously ever again if you start complaining about the sanctity of Tolkien's work...seeing as you clearly know jack shit about it.
    Maiar is simply another word for 'alien' beings not from Middle Earth. They are "fallen" in the sense that they came from another planet, or "the sky". Please don't imply my take is hot garbage before it's even been fully released.

  3. #1443
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Isnt that Goblins who dont like light? there were orcs at Minas Tirith siege during the day, as well as many other places during the day time
    From glyphweb;

    Little is known for certain of the beginnings of the Orcs, the footsoldiers of the Enemy. It is said that they were in origin corrupted Elves captured by Melkor before the beginning of the First Age. In appearance, Orcs were squat, swarthy creatures. Most of them preferred the darkness, being blinded by the light of the Sun, but the kinds bred later in the Third Age such as the Uruk-hai could endure the daylight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.
    I'm sure the "evil" part is comfortably covered by the "serving Morgoth" bit.

  4. #1444
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Maiar is simply another word for 'alien' beings not from Middle Earth. They are "fallen" in the sense that they came from another planet, or "the sky". Please don't imply my take is hot garbage before it's even been fully released.
    Utterly worthless.

  5. #1445
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Maiar is simply another word for 'alien' beings not from Middle Earth. They are "fallen" in the sense that they came from another planet, or "the sky". Please don't imply my take is hot garbage before it's even been fully released.
    Under notes for Maiar

    We're given no explanation of the word Maiar, and only scarce clues to even point to a possible meaning. In earlier texts, before the word Maiar had appeared, these beings were known as Vanimor the 'Beautiful' (with a corresponding Úvanimor, the 'Ugly', for the monsters of Morgoth). The word Maiar first arose in an amendment to a reference to the Vanimor, so there is evidence that the word Maiar can also be taken to mean the 'Beautiful'. It is perhaps curious that this would make beings such as Balrogs 'beautiful', as they were also accounted Maiar. In fact there is an alternative, negative version of the word, Úmaiar (equivalent to older Úvanimor), used for beings such as this who entered the service of Melkor.

  6. #1446
    Titan Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Utterly worthless.
    Only difference between my half-assed fanfic and Rings of Power is a hollywood budget behind it, lol.

  7. #1447
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Only difference between my half-assed fanfic and Rings of Power is a hollywood budget behind it, lol.
    Don't sell yourself short mate, you care more about the source material too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  8. #1448
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Except this story is written by a particular person and hasn't been randomly passed down, the original is there and it has it's own world.
    Are you just unaware of all the authors whose works have been retold and expanded upon over the years, or do you think Tolkien is for some reason more special than all the famous storytellers that came before him? It's not just ancient myths that get this treatment. How many good stories would we miss out on if no one was allowed to tell modernized versions of works like Hamlet, Frankenstein, War of the Worlds, Count of Monte Cristo, and so on? If adaptations and inspirations of the works of authors like H.P. Lovecraft, Ian Fleming, Arthur Conan Doyle, and Stephen King were always forced to remain stuck within the time periods of their original creations?

    No, just because the work is that of a particular person doesn't make it untouchable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    This is a remake of all of Tolkein's works, it's not an adaptation like Peter Jackson's movies of the books were
    It's not a remake, it's an inspiration using pieces of Tolkien's work to tell new stories. No different than say using the character of James Bond to tell a story that wasn't put to paper by Fleming himself (like GoldenEye, which I'd still argue is one of the best Bond movies).

    It's not like the original works cease to exist once they've been translated to a different medium. Tolkien's original work is still there to be retold and adapted in the future. Peter Jackson's versions weren't the first ones, nor will this show be the last. The lore isn't being damaged or erased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    HWat happens today is so called "modernising things" for this generation - it's a whole load of crap, it's fantasy for crying out loud, it's completley fine to be stuck in the 1940s culture or 1700s culture or whatever, the original is based in, even if it is your own made up culture. you don't have to bring your idea of 21st century life or what you think everyone believes people operate into your fantasy to make it work. they're off course either deluding htemselves or lying because they have an agenda.
    See above for why this mentality of "modernization is a load of crap" is absolutely ridiculous. That's not to say that works CAN'T be retold within their original context/time period/etc, they just don't NEED to be.

    There's nothing wrong with having an agenda either. Most (if not all) authors inject their own versions of morality into their works, whether by how they frame their protagonists and antagonists, or directly within the narrative itself laced with social and political commentaries. Tolkien's works are no exception. The idea of "agendas bad" is purely a modern reaction by conservative audiences who take issue with their ideas being challenged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    /the rest
    More than half your post was about "virtue signaling" (a term you dropped at least 5 times) and the mythological "woke movement". I'm not even going to touch any of these bad takes since they honestly have nothing to do with the quality of an artistic work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    This is a bit like saying Iron Man and Captain America are Greek gods. They aren't, because they're not. If you want to change Tolkien, make your own IP.
    Funny how you avoided mentioning Thor... But even still, those are both examples of characters created by specific people who have since undergone a variety of changes and updates throughout the years at the hands of different artists. If anything, comic books are an excellent example of how characters, stories, and themes can refreshed over time while still adhering to the foundational building blocks of their original sources.

    But no, just like the other poster I responded to, this isn't just an ancient myths thing. There are so many classic authors from the past several hundred years whose works are adapted, retold, re-imagined, and expanded upon. The idea that Tolkien is just too special for this treatment is silly. He's not. If anything, the fact that his works can be expanded on so much is what makes them great, and elevates him to the level of all those other enduring authors.

    If Tolkien were alive today would you rail at him about making up a word other than "elf" for his stories given that his versions deviated from many of the original sources? Would you tell him to "make your own IP" that is completely devoid of any references to things he didn't make up from scratch?
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-06-23 at 03:49 PM.

  9. #1449
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    What's wrong with female orcs? They are made from elves anyways, and you know, elves also have girls.
    Well, the problem arises from the fact that it's pretty much untread territory. Female orcs are never shown or even mentioned within any of Tolkien's writings and for good reason. The only mention of them is from a letter where Tolkien concedes that they must have existed but are never seen as orcs only really appear as soldiers . Therefor it begs the question what you stand to gain from the inclusion of female orcs. Either you portray them like the (male) orcs we know and love/hate by turning them into soldiers (which already contradicts the only mention of female orcs that we have) or you simply make shit up about their "domestic lives". The latter could also open up an entirely different can of worms because showing orc women or even children unnecessarily humanizes them in a way that wasn't really intended by Tolkien because it completely defeats their purpose in regards to his stories.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  10. #1450
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Well, the problem arises from the fact that it's pretty much untread territory. Female orcs are never shown or even mentioned within any of Tolkien's writings and for good reason. The only mention of them is from a letter where Tolkien concedes that they must have existed but are never seen as orcs only really appear as soldiers . Therefor it begs the question what you stand to gain from the inclusion of female orcs. Either you portray them like the (male) orcs we know and love/hate by turning them into soldiers (which already contradicts the only mention of female orcs that we have) or you simply make shit up about their "domestic lives". The latter could also open up an entirely different can of worms because showing orc women or even children unnecessarily humanizes them in a way that wasn't really intended by Tolkien because it completely defeats their purpose in regards to his stories.
    Elven women are also warriors, so why shouldn't Orc women be warriors too? And I doubt that any good hero in Middle-Earth would start to undress dead Orcs in order to find out what gender they had. Hence we never "saw" them from the perspective of the books.

  11. #1451
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Elven women are also warriors, so why shouldn't Orc women be warriors too?
    ...Because Tolkien stated that there must have been orc women but we don't know much about them because we only see orcs as soldiers which implies that these soldiers aren't women. Also Elven women generally aren't warriors.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  12. #1452
    Just because Tolkein didn't want to write about Orc female warriors doesn't mean there's no place for them ever again.

  13. #1453
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    ...Because Tolkien stated that there must have been orc women but we don't know much about them because we only see orcs as soldiers which implies that these soldiers aren't women. Also Elven women generally aren't warriors.
    Yeah, probably because Tolkien came fresh out of WW1. Which you know, mostly had man fighting, atleast for frontline duty. A modern interpretation would and should be different. But I guess you will hate me because I'm "woke" and want my representation in my fantasy story.

    Also, Galadriel was described as amazon, so I don't know where your "elven women aren't warriors" come from. Just because Tolkien didn't say "and every 3rd elven warrior was a women" doesn't mean there wouldn't be any.

  14. #1454
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Yeah, probably because Tolkien came fresh out of WW1. Which you know, mostly had man fighting, atleast for frontline duty.
    That's still very much the case in 2022 in case you haven't been paying attention.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    A modern interpretation would and should be different.
    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Also, Galadriel was described as amazon, so I don't know where your "elven women aren't warriors" come from. Just because Tolkien didn't say "and every 3rd elven warrior was a women" doesn't mean there wouldn't be any.
    You already said that according to the world Tolkien lived in men fighting would have been the default and natural assumption. There's also the fact that you can count the number of female elves who actually fought on one hand. But what's the point in arguing about the lore when you've already said that the facts of the setting don't really matter to you because you want a ""modern interpretation""?

    Have fun with your trashy amazon flick, I guess.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  15. #1455
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Or, and hear me out, there's LOTR fans out there, like me, who don't judge media before it actually comes out, recognizing that PR and promotional material is often bad and unfinished, or overexposed, or just outright misleading.

    Like the amount of vitriol that gets spewed on these projects before they ever come out makes me wonder how y'all get through a normal day in the real world. And the idea that "megacorporations have corrupted media" as if Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy wasn't made by a megacorporation called New Line Cinema, or every film since Spielberg et al created blockbuster cinema in the late 70s wasn't the product of some massive production company, is comical.
    *Raises Hand*

    One of those fans as well.

    I don't so much question other people's ability to survive in the real world though, at least not just based on how they present on a forum .

    I absolutely watch almost none of the early bullshit about anything, anymore though, because of how people like to pick apart any two minute teaser they get a hold of. Which is just more about fear or wish projection than anything really being 'told' in a 90 second video clip.
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  16. #1456
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Well, the problem arises from the fact that it's pretty much untread territory. Female orcs are never shown or even mentioned within any of Tolkien's writings and for good reason. The only mention of them is from a letter where Tolkien concedes that they must have existed but are never seen as orcs only really appear as soldiers . Therefor it begs the question what you stand to gain from the inclusion of female orcs. Either you portray them like the (male) orcs we know and love/hate by turning them into soldiers (which already contradicts the only mention of female orcs that we have) or you simply make shit up about their "domestic lives". The latter could also open up an entirely different can of worms because showing orc women or even children unnecessarily humanizes them in a way that wasn't really intended by Tolkien because it completely defeats their purpose in regards to his stories.
    Or they could go for the oppression route, and have those females having similarities with the Tleilaxus...
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  17. #1457
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post

    Have fun with your trashy amazon flick, I guess.
    They said it in the article that was linked above.. "Amazon is taking the time to rethink many of the familiar elements from Tolkien's world, including Orcs." Authenticity is so passé. It is all about adaptations now.

  18. #1458
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.
    Imagine the audacity of giving sentient creatures agency....
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  19. #1459
    all I get from these arguments is I should not care about Tolkien's work. I'm not particularly interested in these incredibly shallow morality tales.

    I can at least applaud attempts to inject some new ideas into these stagnant franchises.

  20. #1460
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Imagine the audacity of giving sentient creatures agency....
    To be fair, it's a world with supernatural beings and objective good/evil. Things like "agency" become problematic once gods can meddle and mess with the substrate of reality.

    Balrogs are effectively spirits. They're not animals. They don't have to be able to reproduce or be subject to free will or anything like that. There don't have to be male OR female Balrogs (indeed the concept of gender doesn't have to make sense to them any more than it does to, say, a rock or a star or whatever).

    With orcs it's a little complicated since they were ostensibly "ordinary" beings (elves, if I recall) which were simply "twisted" into their current form by Morgoth. That IMPLIES they're organic beings that come about by the usual forms of reproduction, though we also see in the LotR movies that apparently you can just make them out of mud or whatever who knows.

    What Morgoth's influence does to their agency and free will is hard to say. Tolkien's letters imply that their orientation towards "evil" is a severe bias but not immutable, but there's no primary materials suggesting anything of the kind. Then again, "good" or "evil" are tricky to evaluate with real-world philosophy in a setting where they are pretty much objective forces rather than subjective concepts.

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