1. #1461
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Utterly worthless.
    Only difference between my half-assed fanfic and Rings of Power is a hollywood budget behind it, lol.

  2. #1462
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Only difference between my half-assed fanfic and Rings of Power is a hollywood budget behind it, lol.
    Don't sell yourself short mate, you care more about the source material too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  3. #1463
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Except this story is written by a particular person and hasn't been randomly passed down, the original is there and it has it's own world.
    Are you just unaware of all the authors whose works have been retold and expanded upon over the years, or do you think Tolkien is for some reason more special than all the famous storytellers that came before him? It's not just ancient myths that get this treatment. How many good stories would we miss out on if no one was allowed to tell modernized versions of works like Hamlet, Frankenstein, War of the Worlds, Count of Monte Cristo, and so on? If adaptations and inspirations of the works of authors like H.P. Lovecraft, Ian Fleming, Arthur Conan Doyle, and Stephen King were always forced to remain stuck within the time periods of their original creations?

    No, just because the work is that of a particular person doesn't make it untouchable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    This is a remake of all of Tolkein's works, it's not an adaptation like Peter Jackson's movies of the books were
    It's not a remake, it's an inspiration using pieces of Tolkien's work to tell new stories. No different than say using the character of James Bond to tell a story that wasn't put to paper by Fleming himself (like GoldenEye, which I'd still argue is one of the best Bond movies).

    It's not like the original works cease to exist once they've been translated to a different medium. Tolkien's original work is still there to be retold and adapted in the future. Peter Jackson's versions weren't the first ones, nor will this show be the last. The lore isn't being damaged or erased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    HWat happens today is so called "modernising things" for this generation - it's a whole load of crap, it's fantasy for crying out loud, it's completley fine to be stuck in the 1940s culture or 1700s culture or whatever, the original is based in, even if it is your own made up culture. you don't have to bring your idea of 21st century life or what you think everyone believes people operate into your fantasy to make it work. they're off course either deluding htemselves or lying because they have an agenda.
    See above for why this mentality of "modernization is a load of crap" is absolutely ridiculous. That's not to say that works CAN'T be retold within their original context/time period/etc, they just don't NEED to be.

    There's nothing wrong with having an agenda either. Most (if not all) authors inject their own versions of morality into their works, whether by how they frame their protagonists and antagonists, or directly within the narrative itself laced with social and political commentaries. Tolkien's works are no exception. The idea of "agendas bad" is purely a modern reaction by conservative audiences who take issue with their ideas being challenged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    /the rest
    More than half your post was about "virtue signaling" (a term you dropped at least 5 times) and the mythological "woke movement". I'm not even going to touch any of these bad takes since they honestly have nothing to do with the quality of an artistic work.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    This is a bit like saying Iron Man and Captain America are Greek gods. They aren't, because they're not. If you want to change Tolkien, make your own IP.
    Funny how you avoided mentioning Thor... But even still, those are both examples of characters created by specific people who have since undergone a variety of changes and updates throughout the years at the hands of different artists. If anything, comic books are an excellent example of how characters, stories, and themes can refreshed over time while still adhering to the foundational building blocks of their original sources.

    But no, just like the other poster I responded to, this isn't just an ancient myths thing. There are so many classic authors from the past several hundred years whose works are adapted, retold, re-imagined, and expanded upon. The idea that Tolkien is just too special for this treatment is silly. He's not. If anything, the fact that his works can be expanded on so much is what makes them great, and elevates him to the level of all those other enduring authors.

    If Tolkien were alive today would you rail at him about making up a word other than "elf" for his stories given that his versions deviated from many of the original sources? Would you tell him to "make your own IP" that is completely devoid of any references to things he didn't make up from scratch?
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-06-23 at 03:49 PM.

  4. #1464
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    What's wrong with female orcs? They are made from elves anyways, and you know, elves also have girls.
    Well, the problem arises from the fact that it's pretty much untread territory. Female orcs are never shown or even mentioned within any of Tolkien's writings and for good reason. The only mention of them is from a letter where Tolkien concedes that they must have existed but are never seen as orcs only really appear as soldiers . Therefor it begs the question what you stand to gain from the inclusion of female orcs. Either you portray them like the (male) orcs we know and love/hate by turning them into soldiers (which already contradicts the only mention of female orcs that we have) or you simply make shit up about their "domestic lives". The latter could also open up an entirely different can of worms because showing orc women or even children unnecessarily humanizes them in a way that wasn't really intended by Tolkien because it completely defeats their purpose in regards to his stories.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  5. #1465
    Pit Lord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Well, the problem arises from the fact that it's pretty much untread territory. Female orcs are never shown or even mentioned within any of Tolkien's writings and for good reason. The only mention of them is from a letter where Tolkien concedes that they must have existed but are never seen as orcs only really appear as soldiers . Therefor it begs the question what you stand to gain from the inclusion of female orcs. Either you portray them like the (male) orcs we know and love/hate by turning them into soldiers (which already contradicts the only mention of female orcs that we have) or you simply make shit up about their "domestic lives". The latter could also open up an entirely different can of worms because showing orc women or even children unnecessarily humanizes them in a way that wasn't really intended by Tolkien because it completely defeats their purpose in regards to his stories.
    Elven women are also warriors, so why shouldn't Orc women be warriors too? And I doubt that any good hero in Middle-Earth would start to undress dead Orcs in order to find out what gender they had. Hence we never "saw" them from the perspective of the books.

  6. #1466
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Elven women are also warriors, so why shouldn't Orc women be warriors too?
    ...Because Tolkien stated that there must have been orc women but we don't know much about them because we only see orcs as soldiers which implies that these soldiers aren't women. Also Elven women generally aren't warriors.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  7. #1467
    Just because Tolkein didn't want to write about Orc female warriors doesn't mean there's no place for them ever again.

  8. #1468
    Pit Lord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    ...Because Tolkien stated that there must have been orc women but we don't know much about them because we only see orcs as soldiers which implies that these soldiers aren't women. Also Elven women generally aren't warriors.
    Yeah, probably because Tolkien came fresh out of WW1. Which you know, mostly had man fighting, atleast for frontline duty. A modern interpretation would and should be different. But I guess you will hate me because I'm "woke" and want my representation in my fantasy story.

    Also, Galadriel was described as amazon, so I don't know where your "elven women aren't warriors" come from. Just because Tolkien didn't say "and every 3rd elven warrior was a women" doesn't mean there wouldn't be any.

  9. #1469
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Yeah, probably because Tolkien came fresh out of WW1. Which you know, mostly had man fighting, atleast for frontline duty.
    That's still very much the case in 2022 in case you haven't been paying attention.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    A modern interpretation would and should be different.
    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Also, Galadriel was described as amazon, so I don't know where your "elven women aren't warriors" come from. Just because Tolkien didn't say "and every 3rd elven warrior was a women" doesn't mean there wouldn't be any.
    You already said that according to the world Tolkien lived in men fighting would have been the default and natural assumption. There's also the fact that you can count the number of female elves who actually fought on one hand. But what's the point in arguing about the lore when you've already said that the facts of the setting don't really matter to you because you want a ""modern interpretation""?

    Have fun with your trashy amazon flick, I guess.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  10. #1470
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Or, and hear me out, there's LOTR fans out there, like me, who don't judge media before it actually comes out, recognizing that PR and promotional material is often bad and unfinished, or overexposed, or just outright misleading.

    Like the amount of vitriol that gets spewed on these projects before they ever come out makes me wonder how y'all get through a normal day in the real world. And the idea that "megacorporations have corrupted media" as if Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy wasn't made by a megacorporation called New Line Cinema, or every film since Spielberg et al created blockbuster cinema in the late 70s wasn't the product of some massive production company, is comical.
    *Raises Hand*

    One of those fans as well.

    I don't so much question other people's ability to survive in the real world though, at least not just based on how they present on a forum .

    I absolutely watch almost none of the early bullshit about anything, anymore though, because of how people like to pick apart any two minute teaser they get a hold of. Which is just more about fear or wish projection than anything really being 'told' in a 90 second video clip.
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  11. #1471
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Well, the problem arises from the fact that it's pretty much untread territory. Female orcs are never shown or even mentioned within any of Tolkien's writings and for good reason. The only mention of them is from a letter where Tolkien concedes that they must have existed but are never seen as orcs only really appear as soldiers . Therefor it begs the question what you stand to gain from the inclusion of female orcs. Either you portray them like the (male) orcs we know and love/hate by turning them into soldiers (which already contradicts the only mention of female orcs that we have) or you simply make shit up about their "domestic lives". The latter could also open up an entirely different can of worms because showing orc women or even children unnecessarily humanizes them in a way that wasn't really intended by Tolkien because it completely defeats their purpose in regards to his stories.
    Or they could go for the oppression route, and have those females having similarities with the Tleilaxus...
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  12. #1472
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post

    Have fun with your trashy amazon flick, I guess.
    They said it in the article that was linked above.. "Amazon is taking the time to rethink many of the familiar elements from Tolkien's world, including Orcs." Authenticity is so passé. It is all about adaptations now.

  13. #1473
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.
    Imagine the audacity of giving sentient creatures agency....
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  14. #1474
    all I get from these arguments is I should not care about Tolkien's work. I'm not particularly interested in these incredibly shallow morality tales.

    I can at least applaud attempts to inject some new ideas into these stagnant franchises.

  15. #1475
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Imagine the audacity of giving sentient creatures agency....
    To be fair, it's a world with supernatural beings and objective good/evil. Things like "agency" become problematic once gods can meddle and mess with the substrate of reality.

    Balrogs are effectively spirits. They're not animals. They don't have to be able to reproduce or be subject to free will or anything like that. There don't have to be male OR female Balrogs (indeed the concept of gender doesn't have to make sense to them any more than it does to, say, a rock or a star or whatever).

    With orcs it's a little complicated since they were ostensibly "ordinary" beings (elves, if I recall) which were simply "twisted" into their current form by Morgoth. That IMPLIES they're organic beings that come about by the usual forms of reproduction, though we also see in the LotR movies that apparently you can just make them out of mud or whatever who knows.

    What Morgoth's influence does to their agency and free will is hard to say. Tolkien's letters imply that their orientation towards "evil" is a severe bias but not immutable, but there's no primary materials suggesting anything of the kind. Then again, "good" or "evil" are tricky to evaluate with real-world philosophy in a setting where they are pretty much objective forces rather than subjective concepts.

  16. #1476
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Also, Tolkien never finished the orcs creation, so there is no "real canon" of how they came to be, he had like, 5 theories written, the last one, and prob the one that make most sense(taking account how orcs work, the timeline, etc) is that they were in truth corrupted men, not elves. Of course the elven theory is more popular because his son chose to publish that one.
    The Elven backstory also makes more sense because Melkor hates the elves. The Valar went to war against Melkor in the first place for the sake of protecting the elves. He was captured and imprisoned for three ages for their sake. The elves were the favorite of his archenemies. It is no wonder then that Melkor would try twisting them into a mockery, trying to get back at the Valar, whilst favoring the race of Men, whom the Valar had seemingly abandoned. Even Sauron played up the Valar's favoritism of the Elves to stir up the Numenorans against them.

  17. #1477
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    To be fair, it's a world with supernatural beings and objective good/evil. Things like "agency" become problematic once gods can meddle and mess with the substrate of reality.

    Balrogs are effectively spirits. They're not animals. They don't have to be able to reproduce or be subject to free will or anything like that. There don't have to be male OR female Balrogs (indeed the concept of gender doesn't have to make sense to them any more than it does to, say, a rock or a star or whatever).

    With orcs it's a little complicated since they were ostensibly "ordinary" beings (elves, if I recall) which were simply "twisted" into their current form by Morgoth. That IMPLIES they're organic beings that come about by the usual forms of reproduction, though we also see in the LotR movies that apparently you can just make them out of mud or whatever who knows.

    What Morgoth's influence does to their agency and free will is hard to say. Tolkien's letters imply that their orientation towards "evil" is a severe bias but not immutable, but there's no primary materials suggesting anything of the kind. Then again, "good" or "evil" are tricky to evaluate with real-world philosophy in a setting where they are pretty much objective forces rather than subjective concepts.
    I'm not going to go too much into the Balrog of it all...that was a very weird, very extreme attempt at a hypothetical analog.

    Tolkien acknowledged female orcs must have existed...so there's not really any real argument regarding this shows choice of involving female orcs.

    Objective good and evil existing doesn't make agency problematic at all. Being pre-disposed to something does not mean you lose agency. You can still make the choice to go a different way. And, as you yourself just said, Tolkien said that orcs being evil is not a immutable fact...so he left the door open for non-evil Orcs.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  18. #1478
    Pandaren Monk rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Or, and hear me out, there's LOTR fans out there, like me, who don't judge media before it actually comes out, recognizing that PR and promotional material is often bad and unfinished, or overexposed, or just outright misleading.

    Like the amount of vitriol that gets spewed on these projects before they ever come out makes me wonder how y'all get through a normal day in the real world. And the idea that "megacorporations have corrupted media" as if Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy wasn't made by a megacorporation called New Line Cinema, or every film since Spielberg et al created blockbuster cinema in the late 70s wasn't the product of some massive production company, is comical.
    because of past experience 'we' know full well just how bad this shitshow is gonna turn out to be.

    not only have they rewritten already established characters with predefined lore, making whatever these new characters are purely fan fiction from the producers, the company that is bankrolling this doomed to fail project does not have ANY of the publishing rights to ANY of the material needed to make an adaptation set in this world during this specific time period, that information is held within the pages of the silmarillion and other works that go alongside that.

    lets not get started on the whole shoehorning in these 'harfoots' creatures that have been fabricated out of thin air by the show runners and do not exist in the lore of the universe created by Tolkien, not even touching on the severe lore inaccuracies of the female dwarf, as well as the buzzcut black elf who in this fantasy world would have almost certainly never existed but here we are, the man who birthed this masterpiece of literature and fantasy made these works as a fictional history for Britain, and as a way to ESCAPE the troubles of the real world, and here we are a century later these woke disciples calling themselves producers are forcing gender and race politics onto this fan fiction mess 'to include the real world as it exists today' < (an actual quote from the principal showrunner), proving beyond a shadow of a doubt these people have no desire nor the skill needed to make a faithful adaptation of source material and instead are stealing a beloved IP to push their fan fiction narrative.

    lastly, in every single 'influencer' gathering there have been gifts and what equates to essentially bribes given to those invited in order for them to come out and give it rave reviews despite it being illegal to do so in the vast majority of developed nations around the world, Amazon has deleted almost all of the negative comments it received on its' trailer videos (numbering in the 10's of thousands of comments borderline 100's of thousands overall), they are actively trying to censor any criticism of the show and they are no longer doing so quietly, they are brazenly doing it in full view and no care to who sees it.

    this is going to be such a shitstorm i genuinely can't wait for it to hit the fan and for the woke brigade defending this indefensible mess to try and come out in force to smokescreen it to the normies who are clearly the target audience since no actual fans should be touching this with a 40ft pole, and if you enjoy it, that's great, just know you're likely going to be in the absolute minority and that all the warning signs have been made clear as day to anybody and everybody, it's on you and others like you if you choose to ignore those warnings.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  19. #1479
    The question is, will this be even worse than Wheel of Time? From everything we saw, this TV show looks absolutely horrible and like a cheap cringy rip off of the Tolkien universe.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  20. #1480
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    The question is, will this be even worse than Wheel of Time? From everything we saw, this TV show looks absolutely horrible and like a cheap cringy rip off of the Tolkien universe.
    It will be worse because of how mean spirited this project is.

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