1. #1461
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Also, Tolkien never finished the orcs creation, so there is no "real canon" of how they came to be, he had like, 5 theories written, the last one, and prob the one that make most sense(taking account how orcs work, the timeline, etc) is that they were in truth corrupted men, not elves. Of course the elven theory is more popular because his son chose to publish that one.
    The Elven backstory also makes more sense because Melkor hates the elves. The Valar went to war against Melkor in the first place for the sake of protecting the elves. He was captured and imprisoned for three ages for their sake. The elves were the favorite of his archenemies. It is no wonder then that Melkor would try twisting them into a mockery, trying to get back at the Valar, whilst favoring the race of Men, whom the Valar had seemingly abandoned. Even Sauron played up the Valar's favoritism of the Elves to stir up the Numenorans against them.

  2. #1462
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    To be fair, it's a world with supernatural beings and objective good/evil. Things like "agency" become problematic once gods can meddle and mess with the substrate of reality.

    Balrogs are effectively spirits. They're not animals. They don't have to be able to reproduce or be subject to free will or anything like that. There don't have to be male OR female Balrogs (indeed the concept of gender doesn't have to make sense to them any more than it does to, say, a rock or a star or whatever).

    With orcs it's a little complicated since they were ostensibly "ordinary" beings (elves, if I recall) which were simply "twisted" into their current form by Morgoth. That IMPLIES they're organic beings that come about by the usual forms of reproduction, though we also see in the LotR movies that apparently you can just make them out of mud or whatever who knows.

    What Morgoth's influence does to their agency and free will is hard to say. Tolkien's letters imply that their orientation towards "evil" is a severe bias but not immutable, but there's no primary materials suggesting anything of the kind. Then again, "good" or "evil" are tricky to evaluate with real-world philosophy in a setting where they are pretty much objective forces rather than subjective concepts.
    I'm not going to go too much into the Balrog of it all...that was a very weird, very extreme attempt at a hypothetical analog.

    Tolkien acknowledged female orcs must have existed...so there's not really any real argument regarding this shows choice of involving female orcs.

    Objective good and evil existing doesn't make agency problematic at all. Being pre-disposed to something does not mean you lose agency. You can still make the choice to go a different way. And, as you yourself just said, Tolkien said that orcs being evil is not a immutable fact...so he left the door open for non-evil Orcs.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  3. #1463
    Banned rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Or, and hear me out, there's LOTR fans out there, like me, who don't judge media before it actually comes out, recognizing that PR and promotional material is often bad and unfinished, or overexposed, or just outright misleading.

    Like the amount of vitriol that gets spewed on these projects before they ever come out makes me wonder how y'all get through a normal day in the real world. And the idea that "megacorporations have corrupted media" as if Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy wasn't made by a megacorporation called New Line Cinema, or every film since Spielberg et al created blockbuster cinema in the late 70s wasn't the product of some massive production company, is comical.
    because of past experience 'we' know full well just how bad this shitshow is gonna turn out to be.

    not only have they rewritten already established characters with predefined lore, making whatever these new characters are purely fan fiction from the producers, the company that is bankrolling this doomed to fail project does not have ANY of the publishing rights to ANY of the material needed to make an adaptation set in this world during this specific time period, that information is held within the pages of the silmarillion and other works that go alongside that.

    lets not get started on the whole shoehorning in these 'harfoots' creatures that have been fabricated out of thin air by the show runners and do not exist in the lore of the universe created by Tolkien, not even touching on the severe lore inaccuracies of the female dwarf, as well as the buzzcut black elf who in this fantasy world would have almost certainly never existed but here we are, the man who birthed this masterpiece of literature and fantasy made these works as a fictional history for Britain, and as a way to ESCAPE the troubles of the real world, and here we are a century later these woke disciples calling themselves producers are forcing gender and race politics onto this fan fiction mess 'to include the real world as it exists today' < (an actual quote from the principal showrunner), proving beyond a shadow of a doubt these people have no desire nor the skill needed to make a faithful adaptation of source material and instead are stealing a beloved IP to push their fan fiction narrative.

    lastly, in every single 'influencer' gathering there have been gifts and what equates to essentially bribes given to those invited in order for them to come out and give it rave reviews despite it being illegal to do so in the vast majority of developed nations around the world, Amazon has deleted almost all of the negative comments it received on its' trailer videos (numbering in the 10's of thousands of comments borderline 100's of thousands overall), they are actively trying to censor any criticism of the show and they are no longer doing so quietly, they are brazenly doing it in full view and no care to who sees it.

    this is going to be such a shitstorm i genuinely can't wait for it to hit the fan and for the woke brigade defending this indefensible mess to try and come out in force to smokescreen it to the normies who are clearly the target audience since no actual fans should be touching this with a 40ft pole, and if you enjoy it, that's great, just know you're likely going to be in the absolute minority and that all the warning signs have been made clear as day to anybody and everybody, it's on you and others like you if you choose to ignore those warnings.

  4. #1464
    The question is, will this be even worse than Wheel of Time? From everything we saw, this TV show looks absolutely horrible and like a cheap cringy rip off of the Tolkien universe.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  5. #1465
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    The question is, will this be even worse than Wheel of Time? From everything we saw, this TV show looks absolutely horrible and like a cheap cringy rip off of the Tolkien universe.
    It will be worse because of how mean spirited this project is.

  6. #1466
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    --------------------------




    Seems like Tolkien put a lot more thought into this stuff than """fans""" of his work care to. Imagine that.
    And Men can be pure evil you realize that right? Orcs are corrupted beyond belief it's arguably the most horrible thing that Morgoth did.

  7. #1467
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    It will be worse because of how mean spirited this project is.
    See I might disagree with you, as the executive producer for The Rafe of Time series was going around saying he will ruin fans favorite characters if they said something mean on twitter, and boy did he ruin a lot of characters. Not to mention the lore, the magic system, the history, just about everything. Not saying it isn't possible for the Ring of Power to do the same, but it is a step hill to climb.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-06-23 at 11:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  8. #1468
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    Yeah, i dont know anyone who loved and grew upp with Tolkien that isnt excited about this show. All the hate and drama is hilarious.

    Some even think they are "protecting and defending" Tokiens honor. Like, daym..
    Grew up loving Tolkien my mom literally read me the hobbit in bed cover to cover by the time I was 6. He's one of the biggest reasons I ended up reading so much. I am not excited by this show it looks like an absolute dumpster fire made by people who want to tell their own story and are using Tolkien's world to do it much like Rafe of Time. Why do they do this? Usually because their ideas are terrible and would never get made if not attached to an established work.

  9. #1469
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Isnt that Goblins who dont like light? there were orcs at Minas Tirith siege during the day, as well as many other places during the day time
    Orcs don't like sunlight, but it doesn't straight up kill them like stone trolls.

    With the right amount of fear put in their heart by their masters, they will march under the sun. It'll suck every step of the way, but they'll do it

  10. #1470
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    It will be worse because of how mean spirited this project is.
    In a thread bemoaning the evils of fanfiction, people sure do like inventing their own headcanon about the showrunners' motivations...

  11. #1471
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    The question is, will this be even worse than Wheel of Time?
    That's an achievement in and of itself, but I suppose there's always room to expand at the bottom

  12. #1472
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    It will be worse because of how mean spirited this project is.
    Rafe of Time was made by a dude who is on record as saying his favorite ajah in the red, it's kind of hard for it to be even more mean spirited.

  13. #1473
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Back on the planet Bal, where the Balrogs come from, I don't doubt at all there are females there. Maybe Morgoth didn't take any females with him aboard his interdimensional spaceship back to Middle-Earth to fight the Noldor, Tolkien skipped some of the specifics here.

    You made me choke on my dessert with this comment. Thank you for that. No seriously, it was actually quite funny.

  14. #1474
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Rafe of Time was made by a dude who is on record as saying his favorite ajah in the red, it's kind of hard for it to be even more mean spirited.
    Amazon waited for Christopher Tolkien to die before they began shitting on Tolkien's legacy. The day Christopher Tolkien died, they fired the actors, recast the show, and completely changed it. They gloated on twitter about it. While his body was still warm. That tells you everything you need to know about how despicable these people are. It absolutely is about destroying Tolkien.

  15. #1475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Isnt that Goblins who dont like light? there were orcs at Minas Tirith siege during the day, as well as many other places during the day time
    during the siege of minas tirith and the battle of the pellennor fields, prior to any troops taking the field Sauron sent forth a great storm cloud to cover the land between the mountains of Ephel Dúath and the city of minas tirith, in order to shroud the sunlight from the marching hordes of orcs and other fell creatures that answered Saurons call to war. it is Goblins that have the best time in the sun of all the 'evil creatures' of the world, goblins of middle earth were usually great hulking creatures with thick leathery skin and great muscle mass, what you're getting confused about are the small little moria screechers which are more akin to orcs than to goblins.

  16. #1476
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Amazon waited for Christopher Tolkien to die before they began shitting on Tolkien's legacy. The day Christopher Tolkien died, they fired the actors, recast the show, and completely changed it. They gloated on twitter about it. While his body was still warm. That tells you everything you need to know about how despicable these people are. It absolutely is about destroying Tolkien.
    They did the same shit with Jordan my dude.

  17. #1477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bladesyphon View Post
    You made me choke on my dessert with this comment. Thank you for that. No seriously, it was actually quite funny.
    It's even funnier seeing the posts replying to it about how ridiculous a fanfic like this is, while defending... get this, a ridiculous fanfic. But because it's big budget and coming to Amazon, it MUST be more true to Tolkiens work!

  18. #1478
    The Lightbringer Hansworst's Avatar
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    It never cease to amaze me how people already have their verdict ready when not a single second has aired yet.

  19. #1479
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Amazon waited for Christopher Tolkien to die before they began shitting on Tolkien's legacy. The day Christopher Tolkien died, they fired the actors, recast the show, and completely changed it. They gloated on twitter about it.
    Oh, this should be good. Give me a source.

  20. #1480
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    I kinda liked the screenshots of the new orcs. Weren't the orcs spawned from elves after all.
    The LOTR movies of bulky warriors (not talking about Uruk-hai) with twice the body mass made no sense to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    With the right amount of fear put in their heart by their masters, they will march under the sun. It'll suck every step of the way, but they'll do it
    Dont bring US GOP politics into this thread please
    Last edited by Bakis; 2022-06-24 at 04:12 AM.
    Ukraine’s government has officially registered the Moskva cruiser wreck on the Black Sea bottom as a national underwater cultural heritage site.

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