1. #1501
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    This quote is saying they are evil so..
    Just not created to be evil as God does not create evil, they were twisted to be by Morgoth. The "pre-existing real beings" being Elves.

    I'm not sure Tolkien thought ahead enough to think someday his IP would be hijacked by producers looking to bankroll on people's nostalgia.

    Even doubly ironic, it's not Tolkien's actual vision this show will be capitalizing off of and drawing source material from - its Peter Jackson's. Because they aren't actually going to be writing screenplay for the Silmarillion, thats a book only the few diehard fans show interest in. They are spinning off of the LotR trilogy that made big hollywood money, looking to slice a piece for themselves.

    But anyone who is a fan of LotR enough to have read the books is already aware Peter Jackson only loosely stuck to the source material, and the hobbit trilogy again attempted to capitalize on the success of the original trilogy to mixed reception.

    I guess it's up to the individual to decide just how much deviation from someone's original story is enough to justify calling it fanfic. Hobbit was a made for Hollywood bastardizing of a slim book, this Amazon show I would consider entirely fanfic. I'm not saying it will be bad, but I am predicting it won't be good.
    The thing with Rings of Power is by concentrating on the Second Age they have more of a blank canvas to work with. Tolkien never finalised the exact events of those times and several conflicting accounts and ideas exist for the writers to play around with. If nothing else I'm very interested to see which of Tolkien's writings they will draw inspiration from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Really because every single Tolkein fan I know of think its a nostalgia cash grab from one of the worst mega corporations to exist.
    The people I see complaining mostly seem to be fans of internet drama or people who think Tolkien was just a scriptwriter for Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    It's bizarre that people nowadays are so wrapped up in the idea of their childhood stories being some sort of sacred text that should not be tampered with. For thousands of years people have been retelling and re-imagining classic stories, from the mythologies of the ancient world, to the sagas of the middle ages, to the classic works of people like Shakespeare, Austen, Poe, Dickens, and so many others in between and since.

    Tolkien built a mythology of his own, but took plenty of inspiration from those that came before him. I'm sure if he knew how his works have endured, evolved, and inspired other storytellers he'd be elated. The best stories and characters stand the test of time not because they are perfect ONLY in their original form, but rather because they present themes, teach lessons, and create worlds that can be adapted. Things like "elves are always white skinned" and "orcs are always evil" are hardly the defining pillars of Tolkien's work.
    "I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths - which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. ... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Except this story is written by a particular person and hasn't been randomly passed down, the original is there and it has it's own world.

    If you come in and make sweeping changes to that world, then it is no longer that world any longer.
    Except Tolkien never wrote a finished story for this time period, outside of the LotR appendix there are just lots of unpublished notes that frequently contradict themselves as his ideas changed in the decades following LotR being published.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Isnt that Goblins who dont like light? there were orcs at Minas Tirith siege during the day, as well as many other places during the day time
    Orcs and goblins are synonymous in Tolkien's world, though goblins often seem different as that term is mostly used in The Hobbit which is a children's book retconned into his Middle Earth myths after publishing.

    Anyway it's just sunlight that the Orcs hate as it comes from the Valar. Originally it had something to do with the Orcs being created before the sun but Tolkien apparently planned to change the cosmology so it always existed, dunno if he intended for that to change the orcs' relationship to the sun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The whole discussion about "good" Orcs is facetious.

    Even if we assume that is "possible" because Tolkien didn't philosophically rule out for Orcs to be redeemed, it still doesn't answer the question why you would even focus on this most unlikely event that never actually happened as far as Tolkien's writings are concerned. Doesn't the act of filling out the most vague narrative spaces Tolkien deliberately didn't touch on already constitute a subversion of his work?

    If large parts of your adaptation are focused on some very unlikely possibilities that only exist because of some offhand remark Tolkien made in a letter then you're already missing the mark. Because at that point you are evidently making a choice to not tell the stories Tolkien was interested in and instead focus on open questions Tolkien considered unimportant or uncomfortable at the time to fill them with your own dreck.
    Isn't it more respectful to look at Tolkien's ideas and fill in the stories he never got around to completing, rather than taking the stories he had completed and changing them foe your own purposes?

    If they do follow Tolkien's ideas about Orcs not being completely irredeemable this time period is probably the best stage for it. Many Orcs at this point are homeless and masterless following the War of Wrath, a good time to show them more deserving of pity than loathing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.
    Other Maia (including Sauron) were given the chance to repent so it stands to reason the Balrogs would have been too, though it seems that for their spirits to clothe themselves as Balrogs requires a dedication to Morgoth such that they would never accept forgiveness from the Valar.

    All the Ainu were male or female in spirit though this was not necessarily reflected in their form and Tolkien didn't go in to enough detail to definitely say if they were gendered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    The weird part of all this Orc creationism and their origin is that we see in two towers fresh Orcs being birthed out of a mud pit or something. Since this show is based off Peter Jackson's work I wonder how that plays in to the story, or why they have a need for birthing persons
    It isn't directly based on Jackson's interpretation of LotR, it's their own thing based on the writings of Tolkien.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Over time, since this show was announced, it has only created a longer and longer shadow of dread. It seems like the more info comes out of the show, that the focus seems less about making a tolkien show and about making a generic fantasy-exploration show, like all the other fantasy shows out there.

    Its really a shame. Im not one to judge a show or story before it has been presented, but i think you can judge intent and design before a thing is published, and Rings of Power does not have a good intent if we look at what it pushes onto the public. The show tries to push inclusivity, story-analyses and bringing a modern story, when the original content does not really guide to that.

    I wish Rings of Power the best really, but i would not be surprised if this show ends up being another Wheel of Time, Shadow and Bone or Carnival Row, which while not being outright bad, is just bland and does not stand out as anything worth paying attention to.
    I definitely disagree with you here. The more I read about the show the more it looks like the creators have been delving into the more obscure parts of what Tolkien wrote. That doesn't meant it will definitely be good but it will certainly be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Maiar is simply another word for 'alien' beings not from Middle Earth. They are "fallen" in the sense that they came from another planet, or "the sky". Please don't imply my take is hot garbage before it's even been fully released.
    Maiar refers specifically to members of the Ainur who are lesser than the Valar. They took part in the music of Illuvatar before the creation of Arda and went down into the world to prepare it for the coming of the Children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Only difference between my half-assed fanfic and Rings of Power is a hollywood budget behind it, lol.
    That and your total lack of reference to what Tolkien had to say on the matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Well, the problem arises from the fact that it's pretty much untread territory. Female orcs are never shown or even mentioned within any of Tolkien's writings and for good reason. The only mention of them is from a letter where Tolkien concedes that they must have existed but are never seen as orcs only really appear as soldiers . Therefor it begs the question what you stand to gain from the inclusion of female orcs. Either you portray them like the (male) orcs we know and love/hate by turning them into soldiers (which already contradicts the only mention of female orcs that we have) or you simply make shit up about their "domestic lives". The latter could also open up an entirely different can of worms because showing orc women or even children unnecessarily humanizes them in a way that wasn't really intended by Tolkien because it completely defeats their purpose in regards to his stories.
    At the time period Rings of Power is set the Orcs had been scattered following Morgoth's defeat and the destruction of Beleriand. This means they won't be seen in organised military groups as seen in LotR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    ...Because Tolkien stated that there must have been orc women but we don't know much about them because we only see orcs as soldiers which implies that these soldiers aren't women. Also Elven women generally aren't warriors.
    All Elven women would fight in defence of their homes but generally it was only the men who would organise into attacking armies, the notable exceptions being Galadriel the "man-maiden."

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    <snip>
    What a pile of absolute rot. The standout part is you not knowing that the Harfoots very much exist in Tolkien's work, though special mention has to go to your twisted logic that leaving racial discrimination out of the casting decisions somehow detracts from the escapism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Amazon waited for Christopher Tolkien to die before they began shitting on Tolkien's legacy. The day Christopher Tolkien died, they fired the actors, recast the show, and completely changed it. They gloated on twitter about it. While his body was still warm. That tells you everything you need to know about how despicable these people are. It absolutely is about destroying Tolkien.
    I don't think Christopher Tolkien would have cared though. He was scathing enough about the LogR trilogy and had pretty much totally checked out by the time the Hobbits films came out.

  2. #1502
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post

    Isn't it more respectful to look at Tolkien's ideas and fill in the stories he never got around to completing, rather than taking the stories he had completed and changing them foe your own purposes?

    If they do follow Tolkien's ideas about Orcs not being completely irredeemable this time period is probably the best stage for it. Many Orcs at this point are homeless and masterless following the War of Wrath, a good time to show them more deserving of pity than loathing.
    It's not more "respectful" since we're not talking about "completing Tolkien's ideas" here. Tolkien never really humanised or redeemed his orcs. That has nothing to do with a lack of time or the fact that much of his work only exists in fragments. He simply didn't intend to because he knew it would heavily clash with the kind of stories he told. The only reason why he didn't describe the orcs as outright irredeemable was because of his Christian worldview that heavily influenced LOTR but in that context we're more talking about some kind of spiritual redemption. They are still "naturally bad" and irredeemable to Elves and Men.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  3. #1503
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    The weird part of all this Orc creationism and their origin is that we see in two towers fresh Orcs being birthed out of a mud pit or something. Since this show is based off Peter Jackson's work I wonder how that plays in to the story, or why they have a need for birthing persons
    To be fair, we only saw that for Saruman's Uruk-Hai, which could be created entierly differently than normal Orcs. I imagine they could be more like lab/test-tube babies, or even clones or something rather than natural born Orcs, simply because they are said to be a fusion of Orcs and Men created through magic and alchemy.

  4. #1504
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's not more "respectful" since we're not talking about "completing Tolkien's ideas" here. Tolkien never really humanised or redeemed his orcs. That has nothing to do with a lack of time or the fact that much of his work only exists in fragments. He simply didn't intend to because he knew it would heavily clash with the kind of stories he told. The only reason why he didn't describe the orcs as outright irredeemable was because of his Christian worldview that heavily influenced LOTR but in that context we're more talking about some kind of spiritual redemption. They are still "naturally bad" and irredeemable to Elves and Men.
    We're talking about telling a story in an age Tolken has not fully realised. This is something he had spoken of quite positively in letters, whereas he was definitely not happy with the idea of people changing stories and dialogue he had put to paper.

  5. #1505
    Banned rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The thing with Rings of Power is by concentrating on the Second Age they have more of a blank canvas to work with. Tolkien never finalised the exact events of those times and several conflicting accounts and ideas exist for the writers to play around with. If nothing else I'm very interested to see which of Tolkien's writings they will draw inspiration from.

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    The people I see complaining mostly seem to be fans of internet drama or people who think Tolkien was just a scriptwriter for Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings.

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    "I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths - which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. ... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."

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    Except Tolkien never wrote a finished story for this time period, outside of the LotR appendix there are just lots of unpublished notes that frequently contradict themselves as his ideas changed in the decades following LotR being published.

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    Orcs and goblins are synonymous in Tolkien's world, though goblins often seem different as that term is mostly used in The Hobbit which is a children's book retconned into his Middle Earth myths after publishing.

    Anyway it's just sunlight that the Orcs hate as it comes from the Valar. Originally it had something to do with the Orcs being created before the sun but Tolkien apparently planned to change the cosmology so it always existed, dunno if he intended for that to change the orcs' relationship to the sun.

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    Isn't it more respectful to look at Tolkien's ideas and fill in the stories he never got around to completing, rather than taking the stories he had completed and changing them foe your own purposes?

    If they do follow Tolkien's ideas about Orcs not being completely irredeemable this time period is probably the best stage for it. Many Orcs at this point are homeless and masterless following the War of Wrath, a good time to show them more deserving of pity than loathing.

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    Other Maia (including Sauron) were given the chance to repent so it stands to reason the Balrogs would have been too, though it seems that for their spirits to clothe themselves as Balrogs requires a dedication to Morgoth such that they would never accept forgiveness from the Valar.

    All the Ainu were male or female in spirit though this was not necessarily reflected in their form and Tolkien didn't go in to enough detail to definitely say if they were gendered.

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    It isn't directly based on Jackson's interpretation of LotR, it's their own thing based on the writings of Tolkien.

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    I definitely disagree with you here. The more I read about the show the more it looks like the creators have been delving into the more obscure parts of what Tolkien wrote. That doesn't meant it will definitely be good but it will certainly be interesting.

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    Maiar refers specifically to members of the Ainur who are lesser than the Valar. They took part in the music of Illuvatar before the creation of Arda and went down into the world to prepare it for the coming of the Children.

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    That and your total lack of reference to what Tolkien had to say on the matter.

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    At the time period Rings of Power is set the Orcs had been scattered following Morgoth's defeat and the destruction of Beleriand. This means they won't be seen in organised military groups as seen in LotR.

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    All Elven women would fight in defence of their homes but generally it was only the men who would organise into attacking armies, the notable exceptions being Galadriel the "man-maiden."

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    What a pile of absolute rot. The standout part is you not knowing that the Harfoots very much exist in Tolkien's work, though special mention has to go to your twisted logic that leaving racial discrimination out of the casting decisions somehow detracts from the escapism.

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    I don't think Christopher Tolkien would have cared though. He was scathing enough about the LogR trilogy and had pretty much totally checked out by the time the Hobbits films came out.
    please show me the exact line of text in any of the Lord of the Rings books, or the Hobbit book where these creatures are mentioned to have lived during the years of the second age, don't worry i'll wait.

    i still haven't seen anybody able to come up with a valid reason as to how a black dwarf could exist in the world when they live exclusively underground and rarely see sunlight, not to mention the lack of facial hair which is canon to exist and yet Amazon and these show runners seem to disagree with that, and the whole super elf with shaven head who would never have existed in the middle earth universe but somehow is a 'faithful adaptation' by these showrunners speaks volumes to your sycophancy, and then shoehorning in a taboo romance that's purely fan fiction, a rewritten galadriel who is purely fan fiction, and Elrond who is nothing like his canonical character once again a pure fabrication of fan fiction from these show runners, so tell me again with a straight face where i'm wrong and how this show is going to be the 'best thing ever' because i'm not seeing it.

  6. #1506
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The Elven backstory also makes more sense because Melkor hates the elves. The Valar went to war against Melkor in the first place for the sake of protecting the elves. He was captured and imprisoned for three ages for their sake. The elves were the favorite of his archenemies. It is no wonder then that Melkor would try twisting them into a mockery, trying to get back at the Valar, whilst favoring the race of Men, whom the Valar had seemingly abandoned. Even Sauron played up the Valar's favoritism of the Elves to stir up the Numenorans against them.
    The problem with that is that orcs would be immortal, and would definitely bring problems with his idea and concept of men and elvish afterlife. And, Everything Melkor/Morgoth created usually became more powerful, like dragons made out of lizards.

    In fact, this was one of the theories he came up after the idea of corrupted elves, that orcs were beasts animated by the will of Morgoth, thus explanning their characters of smaller than men, more bruttish, with yellow eyes, fanged teeth and the nose.

    Then there is theories that orcs were Fallen Maiar, who breed like Melian. Being fallen Maiar and "demonic/evil spirits" actually take direct context from the original meaning of the word orc/ork/orcenas who means "evil spirits" or spectres or even hell devil. which is funny cause there is Maiar who took the form of orcs in the lore afaik

    From what i read about, the last letters of tolkien talk of how he was rewriting the first age, and so, leaning to the idea of orcs being corrupted men again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The thing with Rings of Power is by concentrating on the Second Age they have more of a blank canvas to work with. Tolkien never finalised the exact events of those times and several conflicting accounts and ideas exist for the writers to play around with. If nothing else I'm very interested to see which of Tolkien's writings they will draw inspiration from.
    They didn't already straight up said, they will not take any of his writings as inspiration, and instead, create th story tolkien never did? like, from what i read, they can only use appendix B, so they rly don't have much, thats why they will make like events who take years apart to be quickly followed

    Anyway it's just sunlight that the Orcs hate as it comes from the Valar. Originally it had something to do with the Orcs being created before the sun but Tolkien apparently planned to change the cosmology so it always existed, dunno if he intended for that to change the orcs' relationship to the sun.

    Probably as some of then,(not counting the uruk-hai, didn't seem to be much affected by it.


    Its also funny to see how much tolkiien was going to rewrite before he died

    It isn't directly based on Jackson's interpretation of LotR, it's their own thing based on the writings of Tolkien.
    The Jackson interpretation for creating the hybrids comes from the very first draft of orc creation "bred by Morgoth from the heats and the slimes of the earth", but then he decided only Ilúvatar could create sentient life

    At the time period Rings of Power is set the Orcs had been scattered following Morgoth's defeat and the destruction of Beleriand. This means they won't be seen in organised military groups as seen in LotR.
    Good to point that out that without the influence of Morgoth, and the later influence of Sauron, the Orcs were pretty much independent in places like blue mountains, living a "normal society" who had their own conflicts against each other and other races.

  7. #1507
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    please show me the exact line of text in any of the Lord of the Rings books, or the Hobbit book where these creatures are mentioned to have lived during the years of the second age, don't worry i'll wait.
    Hang on a second, just need to adjust to this massive goalpost move from "conjured out of thin air" and "never existed in the lore of the universe" to "show me the exact line of text" from specific books about specific times. Such a line doesn't exist, the Red Book of Westmarch (the fictional manuscript Tolkien pretended was the source of his Middle Earth novels) maintains that Hobbits know nothing of their origins and all the authors could find was myths and stories from the Rohirim.

    However we know from other works that Hobbits are of the race of Men which means their ancestors awoke at Hildorien at the dawn of the First Age of the Sun. Anything between then and their making contact with other peoples during the Third Age is pure speculation and it will be interesting to see how exactly they handle it.

    i still haven't seen anybody able to come up with a valid reason as to how a black dwarf could exist in the world when they live exclusively underground and rarely see sunlight,
    The actress they chose to play the role has dark skin. As dwarves were originally carved from rock by Aule and the sun is a magic piece of fruit whatever ideas you have about skin-tone in the real world probably doesn't apply the same, unless you're also upset about how Gimli didn't spend all his time complaining about sunburn and the symptoms of vitamin D deficiency.

    not to mention the lack of facial hair which is canon to exist and yet Amazon and these show runners seem to disagree with that,
    In Tolkien's words;

    "When I came to think of it, in my own imagination, beards were not found among Hobbits (as stated in text); nor among the Eldar (not stated). All male Dwarves had them. The wizards had them, though Radagast (not stated) had only short, curling, light brown hair on his chin. Men normally had them when full-grown, hence Eomer, Theoden and all others named. But not Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, Aragorn, Isildur, or other Númenórean chieftains."


    and the whole super elf with shaven head who would never have existed in the middle earth universe but somehow is a 'faithful adaptation' by these showrunners speaks volumes to your sycophancy, and then shoehorning in a taboo romance that's purely fan fiction,
    I don't know what you're talking about here.

    a rewritten galadriel who is purely fan fiction,
    This was already covered beautifully by @ringpriest (go back to their post to see Tolkien's actual quotes.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    All the above quotes are from Tolkien, at various places in the Legendarium. They describe a woman who:

    Fought (as in elves killing elves with swords) her father's people because she despised what they were doing (stealing the Sea-Elves ships and killing them if they fought back).

    Left the Blessed Realm by herself, defying the Gods and the elves alike.

    Told the Gods "no thanks" when offered absolution and a return to paradise.

    And finally, sans Ring, personally ripped Sauron's #2 stronghold apart.

    Now, there's a lot of huge gaps in Tolkien's writings on Galadriel, particularly in the Second Age. For example, there's nothing about her actions during the Last Alliance, even though she's described as one of Sauron's greatest foes. But 'full of piss and vinegar' seems a very apt description of her younger self, many long centuries and centuries before the Fellowship meets her in Lothlorien. That doesn't mean the show will be good, but from the little they've shown so far, their depiction of, to quote the good Professor again, "the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe" seems fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    and Elrond who is nothing like his canonical character once again a pure fabrication of fan fiction from these show runners,
    What do you consider to be the canonical character of Elrond at this point in his life, what are you basing it on?

    so tell me again with a straight face where i'm wrong and how this show is going to be the 'best thing ever' because i'm not seeing it.
    Please explain how you can read my statement "That doesn't meant it will definitely be good but it will certainly be interesting" and think I'm describing it as "the best thing ever."
    Last edited by Dhrizzle; 2022-06-24 at 01:12 PM.

  8. #1508
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.
    You'd be correct if he didnt hint there numbers were limited to about 12..

  9. #1509
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    They didn't already straight up said, they will not take any of his writings as inspiration, and instead, create th story tolkien never did? like, from what i read, they can only use appendix B, so they rly don't have much, thats why they will make like events who take years apart to be quickly followed
    This is an interesting situation where you have to consider the difference between "using" and "taking inspiration from" things that Tolkien wrote. It was my impression that they could only cover the time period covered in the appendix but they could still draw inspiration from all the other things Tolkien wrote. Notably they seem to have taken inspiration from Tolkien's characterisation of Galdriel having an "amazon" disposition.

    It's similar to a dispute over the Enola Holmes movie that came out recently. As Sherlock Holmes is old enough to be in the public domain (anyone can use the character without violating IP laws) the Conad Doyle estate said that the version of Holmes appearing in the movie was inspired by later portrayals of Holmes as a warmer, more emotional character and none of those books had passed into the public domain yet. They tried to block the release of the movie but during the trial some of those later books passed into public domain and the point was rendered moot.

    Its also funny to see how much tolkiien was going to rewrite before he died
    Supposedly he planned to rewrite the whole cosmology so the sun and moon always existed but were obscured, and the world was always round and Valinor was simply removed from the globe. However given his conceit that his Legendarium was translated myths from history these cosmologies could be the results of expanding understanding of the fictional folk who wrote the fictional myths and none of them are "canonically" "true."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    You'd be correct if he didnt hint there numbers were limited to about 12..
    Originally Tolkien had hundreds of balrogs with scores being slain in a single battle. Later he noted there would be somewhere between 3 and 7. If there was only 3 then when Gandalf killed Durin's Bane that would be all of them gone (the others killed by Ecthellion and Glorfindel during the Fall of Gondolin.)
    Last edited by Dhrizzle; 2022-06-24 at 01:14 PM.

  10. #1510
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Funny how you avoided mentioning Thor... But even still, those are both examples of characters created by specific people who have since undergone a variety of changes and updates throughout the years at the hands of different artists. If anything, comic books are an excellent example of how characters, stories, and themes can refreshed over time while still adhering to the foundational building blocks of their original sources.

    But no, just like the other poster I responded to, this isn't just an ancient myths thing. There are so many classic authors from the past several hundred years whose works are adapted, retold, re-imagined, and expanded upon. The idea that Tolkien is just too special for this treatment is silly. He's not. If anything, the fact that his works can be expanded on so much is what makes them great, and elevates him to the level of all those other enduring authors.

    If Tolkien were alive today would you rail at him about making up a word other than "elf" for his stories given that his versions deviated from many of the original sources? Would you tell him to "make your own IP" that is completely devoid of any references to things he didn't make up from scratch?
    Thor doesn't make a difference. The Thor for Marvel isn't the Thor from Norse mythology, just based on him. No one is calling the Marvel movies a sequel to the Poetic Edda.

    Just like this Amazon series isn't "Lord of the Rings" it is a new story that steals from Lord of the Rings because the authors/writers are too poorly skilled to make their own IP.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  11. #1511
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post

    i still haven't seen anybody able to come up with a valid reason as to how a black dwarf could exist in the world when they live exclusively underground and rarely see sunlight
    Most Drow spend their entire lives deep underground, and their species has literal black skin (and not just the dark brown that we call "black"). Hell, this is a WoW fan website, so most people should know about Dark Iron dwarves who are depicted in various shades of charcoal. If you wanted to make the case that all Tolkien Dwarves should be white because they live underground, then you'd have to make the case that they should be much much more pale that they're usually depicted. Like, Gollum levels of pale. Since that's an example of a single individual who lived hundreds of years away from the sun, and not an entire species who would have adapted to that environment.

    Or, you could just get the fuck over it and deal with the fact that it's a fantasy race in a fantasy setting and the skin color of them being roughly analogous to IRL humans isn't remarkable.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    not to mention the lack of facial hair which is canon to exist and yet Amazon and these show runners seem to disagree with that
    Different people have different hairstyles. News at 11. The "hot" dwarves in the Hobbit barely had beards at all. At least not compared to the giant chin-manes that the stereotypical dwarf is depicted with. Do you think that was what made those movies mediocre?

    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    the whole super elf with shaven head who would never have existed in the middle earth universe
    And this is just the same exact dumbass complaint as the one I just addressed. So...ditto. The "super elf" thing is particularly cute, though, given that...you know...movie Legolas is a thing that exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    purely fan fiction
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    pure fabrication of fan fiction
    I said it before, but literally every adaptation whose screenplay isn't written by the original author is just fan fiction. Because those fans bring their own interpretations and cut/add material as they see fit to tell the story they want to tell. This is basic shit, and the fact that you think it's some knock-down argument against this production in particular, is laughable.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-06-24 at 01:19 PM.

  12. #1512
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    And this is just the same exact dumbass complaint as the one I just addressed. So...ditto. The "super elf" thing is particularly cute, though, given that...you know...movie Legolas is a thing that exists.
    So by the time of Legolas the Sindar (and elves in general) had been waning for many centuries, the Sindar in the Second Age would have been much stronger.

    Then the Noldor (those elves that returned from Valinor) are said to be as far above the Sindar as the Sindar were above Men.

    And Galadriel was said to be mightiest of the Noldor (save perhaps Feanor,) so if we're using movie Legolas as a basis then Galadriel should be pulling the sorts of feats you get in Marvel movies.

  13. #1513
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    And Galadriel was said to be mightiest of the Noldor (save perhaps Feanor,) so if we're using movie Legolas as a basis then Galadriel should be pulling the sorts of feats you get in Marvel movies.
    Don't bring that up. You're going to associate Rings of Power Galadriel with Brie Larson's Captain Marvel... I don't want to clean up the liquified brains that will be running out of their ears from all the outrage.

  14. #1514
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Don't bring that up. You're going to associate Rings of Power Galadriel with Brie Larson's Captain Marvel... I don't want to clean up the liquified brains that will be running out of their ears from all the outrage.
    I am pretty sure the leakage has already happened, or at least has been booked in advance. Thankfully I am not on twitter anymore so I can semi avoid that shit. Unfortunately I do use YouTube and since I have a history with liking to look up Lord of the rings lore/content, Youtube has also, for the past 6 months, been handing me lots of outrage content from other content creators who deal in... well outrage.

    Because YouTube thinks content I like about 'The Life of Samwise Gamgee' is about equated to people titling their videos 'WOKE LOTR IS DOOMED'. I don't want to give the creator publicity, but his videos have been on my recommended for a while now, mostly since the Rings of Power teaser was leaked. and yes I have blocked him, 5 times now. lol

    At this point the outrage assured so get that mop ready :P
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-06-24 at 02:08 PM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  15. #1515
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Are you just unaware of all the authors whose works have been retold and expanded upon over the years, or do you think Tolkien is for some reason more special than all the famous storytellers that came before him? It's not just ancient myths that get this treatment. How many good stories would we miss out on if no one was allowed to tell modernized versions of works like Hamlet, Frankenstein, War of the Worlds, Count of Monte Cristo, and so on? If adaptations and inspirations of the works of authors like H.P. Lovecraft, Ian Fleming, Arthur Conan Doyle, and Stephen King were always forced to remain stuck within the time periods of their original creations?

    No, just because the work is that of a particular person doesn't make it untouchable.
    Doesn't mean people are going to like it or appreciate it being so altered.

    At a certain point, the thing ceases to become what it originally was.. it's like the new star wars, has the same name, but it's not the same thing - and it's how they've changed.

    Remains to bes een if rings of Power would be good, or the changes acceptable or just terrible.

    A lot of the time the type of changes we've been seen in the like so f Star wars and Wheel of time to give a few examples are completely un-necessary (one is doing new content, the other just changed the original content)... other times I think it works well or is acceptable, Discovery of Star Trek was one such - Discovery didn't change the Star Trek canon or lore much, it just showed a different side in a different way - comic books have been changing a lot.

    Obviously for somethings change can work well, other times it doesn't at all. You do need to do new things, but you don't have to change the core of a thing to make it relevant or good either, that's just rubbish, and some people are just changing things drastically to the point they are un-recognisable - not for the sake of the product or a good story or entertainment but for ideological or socio-political (i.e. religious) reasons.

    Don't expect those who loved that thing in its original form to be too pleased.. especially if the quality of the new one is rubbish - like it was the case for Wheel of Time and Obi Wan Kenobi show but wasn't (imo) for Discovery (but was for Picard - just awful)

  16. #1516
    Don't tell me LOTR is going the Warcraft III route and white-washing the ugly barbarous beasts known as "orcs".

  17. #1517
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Doesn't mean people are going to like it or appreciate it being so altered.

    At a certain point, the thing ceases to become what it originally was.. it's like the new star wars, has the same name, but it's not the same thing - and it's how they've changed.
    Well, yeah that's fine. People can decide for themselves whether they like or dislike something. That's not what we were talking about, though. You made blanket statements about modernizing and re-imagining classic stories, specifically those with a single creator, as both a recent trend and altogether bad. That's simply not true as it is a trend that has been going on for generations and has produced some fantastic works of art.

    Hell, even considering the much-hated Disney, the animated movies of the 90's still hold up to this day and almost all of them drew from established stories/authors (Hans Christian Andersen, Victor Hugo, etc). All of them were GREATLY altered from their original sources, but still very much recognizable as adaptations and became classics themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Obviously for somethings change can work well, other times it doesn't at all. You do need to do new things, but you don't have to change the core of a thing to make it relevant or good either, that's just rubbish, and some people are just changing things drastically to the point they are un-recognisable - not for the sake of the product or a good story or entertainment but for ideological or socio-political (i.e. religious) reasons.

    Don't expect those who loved that thing in its original form to be too pleased.. especially if the quality of the new one is rubbish - like it was the case for Wheel of Time and Obi Wan Kenobi show but wasn't (imo) for Discovery (but was for Picard - just awful)
    The Obi-Wan show ended pretty well (IMO). It certainly had some issues early on, but then again there hasn't been a Star Wars product since Empire that hasn't had its fair share of rubbish. The primary characters of Kenobi and Vader were decently portrayed and had some good moments together that still tied in with both the prequels and OG trilogies, which (to me at least) was really what mattered.

    I never finished either the books or the show for Wheel of Time, so cannot speak to that one, but a recent adaptation that did irk me was Without Remorse. One of my favorite Clancy novels, the adaptation that was released last year was a disappointment. Not because the main character was cast as a black man or that the story was modernized rather than set in the 1970's, both of those changes worked just fine. It was that the story was drastically changed from "seasoned special forces veteran dragged into conflict with pimps and drug lords" to "seasoned special forces veteran dragged into conflict with Russian special forces terrorists trying to start WWIII".

    Anyway, I only bring that up to point out that big changes aren't necessarily the same thing as changes to the core of the source material. For Without Remorse, changing the time setting by 45 years and casting Michael B. Jordan were "big" changes in terms of visuals, but they weren't changes to the core of the story. Likewise for Rings of Power, I haven't seen any good arguments that the core of Tolkien's works is being changed. Not only does it help that the show is covering events that were never fully fleshed out in the source material, it seems like most detractors are only focused on relatively minor details. Nothing I've seen so far (warrior-ish Galadriel, dark skinned elves, female orcs) really detracts from the source material which even Tolkien himself recognized was simply a foundation to be expanded upon.

    But sure, the story might well end up being shit, but not because of any of the things that people who have only seen pictures and trailers are bitching about.

  18. #1518
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Doesn't mean people are going to like it or appreciate it being so altered.
    There's only one gauge for whether people are going to like or appreciate it, and it's whether it's done well.

    If it's a good series, then people will like it and remember it for what it is. If it is done poorly, then it will be forgotten or live on in infamy.

    Whether the story is altered or not is irrelevant. Peter Jackson's LOTR Trilogy is HEAVILY altered from the original books, but it's a great movie series. Hobbit followed in the same vein, and was poorly received. Both altered many things in the books, and it wasn't down to one being more successful than the other because it stayed true to the source. Hardly the case at all.

    The PJ LOTR Trilogy is so well received that most people's recollection of LOTR has become altered by the medium. For example, most people will associate Legolas having Blonde hair because of the movies, even though his hair color was never actually described in the books. Or they will see the Balrog as a winged creature, even though it was never described with wings in the books. It's not true to the source, but it has become so popular and well accepted that the alterations don't get in the way of the enjoyment of the series. That is the beauty of adaptations; they present new ways of interpreting the fiction. A winged devil-like Balrog looks more intimidating than if it did not have wings.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-06-24 at 05:02 PM.

  19. #1519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Imagine the audacity of giving sentient creatures agency....
    Most Orcs aren't really sentient though in Middle Earth. Those with any level of agency like the pack leaders, are still controlled by much more powerful beings like Saruman, Morgoth, Sauron or the Witch King. They basically amount to slaves with a singular mindset and that is of those controlling them. Robert Jordan used similar concepts for the Trollocs in WoT, though Trolloc hordes in those books actually have a pack leader with them at all times for the majority of the series (it isn't until much later that they are seen without a Myrdraal leading them).

  20. #1520
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Most Orcs aren't really sentient though in Middle Earth. Those with any level of agency like the pack leaders, are still controlled by much more powerful beings like Saruman, Morgoth, Sauron or the Witch King. They basically amount to slaves with a singular mindset and that is of those controlling them. Robert Jordan used similar concepts for the Trollocs in WoT, though Trolloc hordes in those books actually have a pack leader with them at all times for the majority of the series (it isn't until much later that they are seen without a Myrdraal leading them).
    Orcs may technically be considered 'soulless', but they are considered sentient beings. Even if their mindsets are singular, they are individually so, and not privy to some animalistic 'hive mind'. Trollocs are not mindless either, and despite a low intelligence, are still considered sentient.

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