Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[bledgor]

lmao, I just think it's funny how you guys need to keep this thread going based on you being upset on someone else's behalf. that's the part that gets me. clearly it's not enough that you don't like the freedoms they are taking with a story that has for all we know very little to no actual attachment to "official" lore. no, you're telling us how other people are also mad about it as well, and that is supposed to be the convincing argument here.

What are you on about? I am upset for my own reason, I can think for myself unlike so many corporate shills on this site. Yes, I referenced other people being upset, but I have in several posts quite clearly pointed out the issues I PERSONALLY have with it/things I don't like (including posts in the past page). The fact you refuse to read what I have issues with is a you problem. I find the mindless drone defense of one of the largest mega corporations as they continuously butcher the works of dead men (I wonder if Rings of Power will be worse than the Rafe of Time, high bar to beat) sad, so to each their own.

Also if you are going to use the "not actually attached to official lore" defense then don't use the brand name, make a new show (I mean the show already looks like bad generic fantasy rather than Tolkien).

[uuuhname]

your opinions, outside of invoking the opinions of dead people are not really worth commenting on, sorry.

Also if you are going to use the "not actually attached to official lore" defense then don't use the brand name, make a new show.

okay, tell the show runners that. I'm sure you're the very first person to suggest that.

IDK, I'm of the opinion just wait for it be out first and then decide if it's good or not. instead of speculating and calling other people shills.

[bledgor]

your opinions, outside of invoking the opinions of dead people are not really worth commenting on, sorry.

You mean my factual correct remarks about the show being AT BEST a fuck awful adaptation that heavily deviates from the story Tolkien created? You know what, you last part is right, not worth commenting on your posts, not sorry.

[bledgor]

I keep forgetting I'm a "corporate shill" if I happen to simply not make everything a negative before it's even fucking aired lol

At least I don't get my opinions from what other people tell me, I guess. Got that going for me.

when you defend things we ALREADY KNOW are wrong and say its fine, yes you are shilling. you are welcome for being informed.

[kenn9530]

when you defend things we ALREADY KNOW are wrong and say its fine, yes you are shilling. you are welcome for being informed.

When you insult things before they are even aired then is shows you have very little character and have no intention of discussing anything other than what you dont like, the films were great and they did not follow things the way tolkien would want them, just like a tv series cant follow things to the imagination of its origional creator, a tv series can never follow a book correctly to please every hardcore fan.

All everyone does is constantly insult everything that comes along, they cant just be happy for what they are getting because you would have nothing otherwise. You are not an expert on what tolkien would want and never will be able to find that out.

[bledgor]

No, it isn't.

and yet you continue to not disprove or even talk about all the points me and several others have made, because you know we are right. You want to say the show can still be good, that is something you can argue, I won't agree with that given what we have been shown. You can't however say with everything we have been given basically being against what Tolkien wrote/not in what Tolkien wrote that it is accurate/faithful/a good adaptation. To do so is to shill, as it isn't true.

When you insult things before they are even aired then is shows you have very little character and have no intention of discussing anything other than what you dont like, the films were great and they did not follow things the way tolkien would want them, just like a tv series cant follow things to the imagination of its origional creator, a tv series can never follow a book correctly to please every hardcore fan.

All everyone does is constantly insult everything that comes along, they cant just be happy for what they are getting because you would have nothing otherwise. You are not an expert on what tolkien would want and never will be able to find that out.

What? We know things aren't accurate, we have been given that information mate. It isn't an insult to prove a show isn't being accurate/faithful to the source, especially when they deviate SO FAR from what Tolkien created. Again people aren't asking for a 100% 1 to 1 adaptation, I at least just want something at 80-90%, something close that takes few liberties (which LoTR did).

When half the cast is brand new to the story, when you condense thousands of years down into a much shorter spawn, when characters do things they never did in the books (all things we know factually) it has already proven you aren't even close to accurate.

People don't insult everything that comes along, they just insult the work that is an insult to the person who created them (see Rafe I mean Wheel of time). People shouldn't just be happy they are given something, you should only celebrate it if it is good, like the Dredd film.

[Zoibert the Bear]

What are you on about? I am upset for my own reason, I can think for myself unlike so many corporate shills on this site. Yes, I referenced other people being upset, but I have in several posts quite clearly pointed out the issues I PERSONALLY have with it/things I don't like (including posts in the past page). The fact you refuse to read what I have issues with is a you problem. I find the mindless drone defense of one of the largest mega corporations as they continuously butcher the works of dead men (I wonder if Rings of Power will be worse than the Rafe of Time, high bar to beat) sad, so to each their own.

Also if you are going to use the "not actually attached to official lore" defense then don't use the brand name, make a new show (I mean the show already looks like bad generic fantasy rather than Tolkien).

You are on a wow forum what did you expect if not corporate shills?

[bledgor]

You are on a wow forum what did you expect if not corporate shills?

You know what, fair.

[kenn9530]

What? We know things aren't accurate, we have been given that information mate. It isn't an insult to prove a show isn't being accurate/faithful to the source, especially when they deviate SO FAR from what Tolkien created. Again people aren't asking for a 100% 1 to 1 adaptation, I at least just want something at 80-90%, something close that takes few liberties (which LoTR did).

When half the cast is brand new to the story, when you condense thousands of years down into a much shorter spawn, when characters do things they never did in the books (all things we know factually) it has already proven you aren't even close to accurate.

People don't insult everything that comes along, they just insult the work that is an insult to the person who created them (see Rafe I mean Wheel of time). People shouldn't just be happy they are given something, you should only celebrate it if it is good, like the Dredd film.

You dont have any idea of what tolkien wants or whats he is happy with, even in a book things can be done incorrectly or not able to work in a tv series, you have no right to say what deviates from what tolkien would want because you dont know.

There was nothing wrong with how wheel of time was done, most who watched it had no problems with it and thats what a tv series is about, its not about pleasing the hardcore fans or following an authors vision, its about entertaining the most ppl as possible.

Its impossible to turn a book into a film/tv series and keep the hardcore fanbase pleased, they will always find a way to insult the ones making it. When writing a book you can add in a ton of extra details that just impossible to include in anything else.

[Adamas102]

Think Tolkein would have been fine with writing a story in a different universe with a lot of diversity, but this was supposed to be the historic fantasy/story's of Great Britain, so he wrote it the way he wanted too (much the same way the MCU presented Black Panther).

Oh look, the resident racist pokes his head up again. Come on, let’s hear the mental gymnastics it’ll take to pretend that “keep these colored people out of my white fantasy, they should be segregated to their own stories” isn’t full bore racism.

None of these fantasy races (elves, dwarves, hobbits, Maiar, Numenorians, etc) are of African, Asian, or Caucasian descent. Middle-Earth isn’t England. The stories aren’t a history, or a mythology. They’re just some great stories that this one dude made up, and even if he based it on the England of his time there’s no good reason why modern adaptations can’t draw in the diversity of today’s England to portray these fully fictional characters.

The world Tolkien created is full of diversity, with none of the real world baggage surrounding human skin color. A black actor being cast as an elf isn’t a “race swap”. An elf is an elf regardless of skin color. The only arguments against it are rooted in racism.

[bledgor]

You dont have any idea of what tolkien wants or whats he is happy with, even in a book things can be done incorrectly or not able to work in a tv series, you have no right to say what deviates from what tolkien would want because you dont know.

Well we know what his son wanted (again I am not 100% agreeing with him, I liked LoTR trilogy) and his son knew him best, so can basically know what he wants, which is not even related to anything I said.... I said accurate, being accurate doesn't require the authors words, we got those already when they created the source. We can say what deviates from Tolkien because we have his written works...... they are very well known, in fact one of the most known stories ever.

There was nothing wrong with how wheel of time was done, most who watched it had no problems with it and thats what a tv series is about, its not about pleasing the hardcore fans or following an authors vision, its about entertaining the most ppl as possible.

There is a fuck ton wrong with The Wheel of Time, we are talking a series that easily could have been as big as LoTR was/is, but now only half a year after its release it is barely even talked about. The best reviews it got from "most people" was it was okay fantasy show, while the books are (albeit arguably) one of the best fantasy stories in the past 40 years. You don't have to please the hardcore "I know what page things happened on" fans, but you SHOULD please "I read the books and enjoyed them" fans, and largely they didn't accomplish that.

BTW the reason they adapted the Wheel of Time and didn't create a new fantasy show is they had a story that entertained millions of people, a pre-built audience, who if they pleased would have meant millions of fans, who then would have gone out of their way to get everyone they know to watch the show too.

Its impossible to turn a book into a film/tv series and keep the hardcore fanbase pleased, they will always find a way to insult the ones making it. When writing a book you can add in a ton of extra details that just impossible to include in anything else.

No it isn't, most "hardcore" fans were quite happy with LoTR (which either you mean fans of the books, or only a few hundred of again they know the pages things happened fans, which I am not). I enjoyed the new Reacher series, wasn't 100% accurate, but it was close, in that 80-90% range and was enjoyable even if you didn't read the books. It can be done, its just too many people in Hollywood when adapting want to tell the story there way (aka there fanfic) while inserting the messages they support. The extra details aren't needed, that is the 10-20% largely (some things just can't be done on screen with a finite budget, I get it) I am okay with cutting.

For example you should never cut/changes large parts of the core story in an adaptation, like Rafe of Time did. If you think they didn't I'll present you with them

1. Making the dragon reborn into just some story instead of the dreaded fate that people wouldn't wish upon others (because it was known he would go insane and break the world, also yes it HAD to be a he so Egwene never could have been the dragon reborn).
2 while not denying the two sides of the one power Saidar and Saidin, it was never explained and they had several points were it broke the rules Jordan created for his system, like having Morgaine say she didn't have time instead of couldn't teach Rand (women can't teach men how to use Saidin, and men can't teach women how to use Saidar) or even see the opposite powers weaves (happens twice).
3. They have Egwene who isn't very strong in healing either resurrect (literally impossible for anyone but the big bad evil) or at minimum heal a grievously injured (burned out eyes) Nynaeve to perfect health.
4. Have Loial be stabbed with a dagger that kills those stabbed with it (we have been told he is back for season 2, so obviously can't die)
5. The stealing of Rand's big moment of killing the trolloc army/the moment the world was aware the dragon reborn was here (which was done HORRIBLY, the women basically allowed the men to die before killing the army, when they could have gone to the walls and done the same thing saving all the men). It also makes the tower evil or stupid as 5 women linked could destroy a massive trolloc army, which means anytime there was a big danger they could round up Aes Sedai and link to destroy it (yes you can argue that Nynaeve and Ewgene are two of the strongest of this age, but they weren't at that level yet and they hadn't been trained, you also had two wilders and a weak failure to be Aes Sedai, so if you want to say they need more power just link more actual Aes Sedai to compensate, can go up to 13).

There is more I could say, but again these are just some of things that fuck with the plot line/over arching story they had in season 1 alone, things that make huge changes down the road.

Oh look, the resident racist pokes his head up again. Come on, let’s hear the mental gymnastics it’ll take to pretend that “keep these colored people out of my white fantasy, they should be segregated to their own stories” isn’t full bore racism.

The only racist here is you. You do know that black people can write, and have written many good stories. White people have also written many good stories that include different races, and in fact Tolkien allows for black HUMANS by way of the Haradrim. If they had written a story about the fall of the Haradrim and them falling under Sauron that could have been an interesting story. Yet you want your black elves because YOU only see skin color. Maybe the reason you throw racist out so much as you see yourself in others?

None of these fantasy races (elves, dwarves, hobbits, Maiar, Numenorians, etc) are of African, Asian, or Caucasian descent. Middle-Earth isn’t England. The stories aren’t a history, or a mythology. They’re just some great stories that this one dude made up, and even if he based it on the England of his time there’s no good reason why modern adaptations can’t draw in the diversity of today’s England to portray these fully fictional characters.

.... You know Tolkien, the man who created it, built it as historical fantasy for England, based on England right? He also gave us descriptions of the people. If you want to say he never specifically wrote all elves are white/no black elves, that is a hill you can die on, but considering no named or presented characters are would make either the people of Middle Earth racist, in which case why are you reading/caring about it, or they were all killed off since Rings of Power is the 2nd age and none seem to exist in the 3rd age, which is a fucked up genocide they are writing then. You are free as well as everyone else to make your own historical fantasy that features elves of every color, stop taking things that are already known and changing them.

The world Tolkien created is full of diversity, with none of the real world baggage surrounding human skin color. A black actor being cast as an elf isn’t a “race swap”. An elf is an elf regardless of skin color. The only arguments against it are rooted in racism.

Because the Elves in Tolkiens story had descriptions of what they were/looked like/defining characteristics. Tolkien also never said they didn't have tails growing out of their ass, should we allow that too? Also again IF you force black elves/dwarves into the story in the 2nd age, you then have to explain why they are gone in the 3rd age, so either you have token 1-2 of each in which case you are pandering and don't actually care (because again you can go to the Haradrim if you want different skin colors), or there was a genocide of all dark skin elves and dwarves, which is a fucked up things to write.

So before you start tossing the racist label around, look in the mirror Mr. Resident racist

[kenn9530]

snip

There are ppl who prefer books and ppl who prefer tv/movies, the larger audience always goes to the tv series/movies an adaptation does not really go after the book fanbase because its generally far smaller.

There was nothing wrong with wheel of time it has high ratings and was a good solid show just like many shows that have been released, its just the hardcore fans bitching about it noone else, you are either going to like something or not. A new tv series or movie doesnt have to be labled as the best thing ever to be successful of good. The audiance that watched wheel of time is 3-4 times larger than who bought the books.

The LOTR series will be a good solid series, its not going to live up to expectations built up from the movies and the hardcore fans will 100% bitch about it while the rest enjoy watching it. Plus you cant do things from a book written a long time ago, things have to be changed to be suited for the current time and many things are subject to change to make it suitable for a tv series.

Following a book to the letter costs far more money than it would be worth doing it for, also a tv series would need to be 20 plus episodes again to even fit it all in so its not practical to follow a book as closely as possible, getting it close enough is more than acceptable.

[Khaza-R]

There was nothing wrong with wheel of time it has high ratings and was a good solid show just like many shows that have been released, its just the hardcore fans bitching about it noone else, you are either going to like something or not. A new tv series or movie doesnt have to be labled as the best thing ever to be successful of good. The audiance that watched wheel of time is 3-4 times larger than who bought the books.

Let's not go too far. WoT sits at 62% audience score on RT which is close to Book of Boba Fett at 57%. I wouldn't consider either "successes".

[kenn9530]

Let's not go too far. WoT sits at 62% audience score on RT which is close to Book of Boba Fett at 57%. I wouldn't consider either "successes".

Both are good solid series which are considered a success, ratings are also not really accurate when its about 1% of the total audiance that actually watched it, as long as there is enough watching it thats all that matters not some BS ratings that dont amount to much.

[bledgor]

There are ppl who prefer books and ppl who prefer tv/movies, the larger audience always goes to the tv series/movies an adaptation does not really go after the book fanbase because its generally far smaller.

I get that, but the reason you adapt a source is because you want to tap that pre-built fandom, and yes companies most certainly do go after that fanbase, not the 100% purist but they want the for lack of a better term season fan/read it once fans.

There was nothing wrong with wheel of time it has high ratings and was a good solid show just like many shows that have been released, its just the hardcore fans bitching about it noone else, you are either going to like something or not. A new tv series or movie doesnt have to be labled as the best thing ever to be successful of good. The audiance that watched wheel of time is 3-4 times larger than who bought the books.

There was a lot wrong as an adaptation, you want to say it is a good show, again you can argue that, but don't say it was faithful. Its ratings are okay from fans (3.6/5 on google, Rotten tomatoes the critics loved it at 82% but the fan score is 62%, so okay show there, only IMDB is it in a good range of 7.1/10). I can assure you more than just he hardcore fans were complaining about it. Where did I ever say a new show/movie has to be labeled the best thing ever to be successful or good? Also bull fucking shit, the books sold over 90 million copies, if Amazon got 90 million viewers they would have plastered it everywhere. The numbers we have are 8.5 million hours viewed as of episode 6, which are going to be better as you will lose "hardcore" fans along the way as you put it, which means at best you average just over 1 million viewers an episode, so BEST CASE 9 million viewers (again ignoring anyone that repeated, lose of viewers over the season, the fact that as you correctly stated it is easier for people to watch/enjoy a show vs a book). Now before you go 90 million sold, thats not per a book, fine 14 books so still 6.4 million per a book which is ~6 times what amazon got.

The LOTR series will be a good solid series, its not going to live up to expectations built up from the movies and the hardcore fans will 100% bitch about it while the rest enjoy watching it. Plus you cant do things from a book written a long time ago, things have to be changed to be suited for the current time and many things are subject to change to make it suitable for a tv series.

It COULD be, doubt it WILL be, but funny you say it won't live up to the expectations built it from the movies and only mention hardcore fans being upset. Things don't have to be or need to be changed about books written long ago, should they not make movies about To kill a Mocking bird? Does of Mice and Men need to be changed due to Lenny? Should we complete erase/change the history of bad things/not write about bad things?

Like you want racism gone/corrected, but what about books written today that include rape and murder? You just okay with that, but racism is too far? Also again Tolkien allowed for diversity of skin in the Haradrim, if that is so important why not write about them instead of forcing changes? Why change the work when the work allows what you want? Finally if the show had no dark skinned elves/dwarves it would still be suitable for a tv series (also like I have said dozens of times it has many issues that ruin it, dark skinned elves/dwarves are literally pennies on the dollar to the changes made).

Following a book to the letter costs far more money than it would be worth doing it for, also a tv series would need to be 20 plus episodes again to even fit it all in so its not practical to follow a book as closely as possible, getting it close enough is more than acceptable.

Do you have the numbers to back up this claim, or just talking out your ass about money, I won't deny it certainly costs more to make a show/movie than a book, but you can be faithful (again I have never said be 100%) and make it cost efficient.

Also The eye of the world is 782 pages, meanwhile Fellowship of the ring is 423 pages, The Two towers 352 pages, and Return of the King 416 pages. The trilogy was 558 hours or 686 extended, or 9.3 hours/11.4 hours. So the first two books are roughly the same length as The eye of the World, and together they are 6/7.3 hours. Guess Jackson is just a much better producer because even extended editions he fit the same book length into 7.3 hours as Rafe did in 8 hours of WoT.

There are so many extra things added (the whole of the warder episode, Perrin's fridged wife, the sexual nature of Rand/Egwenes relationship,etc) that took away from the story and so many little things like a line here or there that would have massively improved the story and cost you SECONDS.

For example while traveling with EF5 have Lan take the boys aside to train, and them show him they aren't completely useless with weapons. This sets up the dynamic of the group/develops Lan while showing the boys skill/giving a starting point for their growth for later exploits in the series. You can even add a line like "if you are going to have a heron marked blade I should ensure you are worthy of it" from Lan to Rand, again it builds up lore/gives information while taking seconds to do instead of having Balthamel randomly say it with no context. Instead of having Morgaine say she doesn't have time to teach Rand how to use the power, have her say as a woman she can't teach Rand how to use Saidin since she uses Saidar, maybe 5 seconds longer but more development/information for the watcher.

Both are good solid series which are considered a success, ratings are also not really accurate when its about 1% of the total audiance that actually watched it, as long as there is enough watching it thats all that matters not some BS ratings that dont amount to much.

Funny ratings aren't accurate but you get to say they are good solid series based on? Also as I point out the numbers being generous aren't close to the book numbers.

[Khaza-R]

Both are good solid series which are considered a success, ratings are also not really accurate when its about 1% of the total audiance that actually watched it, as long as there is enough watching it thats all that matters not some BS ratings that dont amount to much.

Extremely amusing response. Then in your opinion virtually all polling and surveying is "BS" since it just draws representative data from a population

[kenn9530]

snip

Wheel of time had around 15-20 million viewers in its debut week so that 3-4 times higher than the potential 6 million but most likely much less book fanbase since its doubtful every one of those fans bought every single book of the series, thats more than good enough considering the book has been out for decades.. So all the numbers prove the wheel of time was a good solid series, not the best ever but good enough, it doesnt matter if you dont like it other ppl do.

Adaptations dont need to be faithful they can do whatever they want so in the end it doesnt matter in the slightest if the story is changed or not. LOTRs universe is subject to changes it doesnt need to follow everything written in the book, as long as its entertaining thats all that really matters.

You have the books if you want to read from the source, the rest are more than happy with what we get in a tv/movie.

- - - Updated - - -

Extremely amusing response. Then in your opinion virtually all polling and surveying is "BS" since it just draws representative data from a population

The sample size is not large enough to use the data properly, its a rough general outline at best, lots of tv series rate similar to what boba and WoT were and they are good and solid, ratings dont really matter all that much.

[bledgor]

Wheel of time had around 15-20 million viewers in its debut week so that 3-4 times higher than the potential 6 million but most likely much less book fanbase since its doubtful every one of those fans bought every single book of the series, thats more than good enough considering the book has been out for decades.. So all the numbers prove the wheel of time was a good solid series, not the best ever but good enough, it doesnt matter if you dont like it other ppl do.

Feel free to back up any of your claims at any point, I dropped numbers you can verify easily that disagree STRONGLY with what you said. Even if you are right, by episode 6 the average viewership no where close to 15-20 million viewers (Neilson numbers/ratings), which would mean a MASSIVE drop in viewership, suggesting the show ISN'T much loved. Also the 6 million isn't "most likely much less", IT IS PROVEABLY RIGHT (by averages, we FACTUALLY KNOW 90 million copies of the books in the series were sold, so even if you want to say less finished, that means by your logic the first book would have sold a ton more).

Yes the book has been out decades, but didn't you just say books reach a far smaller audience than a show/movie, if the books averaged 6 million a book the show should be massive, or at least equal, but it wasn't. So no all the numbers don't prove its a good series, even by your numbers it only proves the show had a MASSIVE fall off by episode 6 (only numbers I have seen suggest at least a 50% drop), which would suggest A LOT of the viewers don't like it enough to continue watching it.

Again considering the book readers should bring a free amount of millions of fans for a series with the potential to be the next LotR or Game of Thrones, that is very disappointing. With prime being so plentiful because people use it for shipping this show had a crazy potential audience and can't even hang with the book it is based on. Also as I said earlier 7 months later no one is talking about it, where LotR and early GoT was everywhere for years.

Adaptations dont need to be faithful they can do whatever they want so in the end it doesnt matter in the slightest if the story is changed or not. LOTRs universe is subject to changes it doesnt need to follow everything written in the book, as long as its entertaining thats all that really matters.

You have the books if you want to read from the source, the rest are more than happy with what we get in a tv/movie.

.... that is some slippery slope bullshit, by that logic why not have guns in LoTR, don't have to be faithful am I right? You do know the reason LoTR has sold hundreds of millions of copies is because it was massively entertaining, why change it away from WHAT YOU KNOW PEOPLE like? Do you like it when a chef throws shit in your food? If it ain't broke don't fix it, and LotR was anything but broke.

Also why you don't have to be 100% faithful in my opinion, you SHOULD and honestly need to be faithful still, if not. Why fucking adapt the story in the first place? I have the books sure, but when bad adaptations are allowed they certain taint the legacy of the source (see any actor that did fucked up shit and is now an outcast like Kevin Spacy).

The sample size is not large enough to use the data properly, its a rough general outline at best, lots of tv series rate similar to what boba and WoT were and they are good and solid, ratings dont really matter all that much.

LOL, so because it doesn't fit YOUR opinion suddenly numbers aren't good enough, but you doubt the 90 million provably sold copies of the books? Bad faith much?

[Xath]

Anyone who tries to claim Rafe of time was a good adaptation is simply here to troll and should just be put on ignore.

[s_bushido]

Extremely amusing response. Then in your opinion virtually all polling and surveying is "BS" since it just draws representative data from a population

These days, I think it's a good idea to take audience scores with a grain of salt...seeing as vote-brigading has become a favorite pastime of a lot of people. It's not really comparable to polling, since stuff like this is self-selected.