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  1. #1521
    Pandaren Monk rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Hang on a second, just need to adjust to this massive goalpost move from "conjured out of thin air" and "never existed in the lore of the universe" to "show me the exact line of text" from specific books about specific times. Such a line doesn't exist, the Red Book of Westmarch (the fictional manuscript Tolkien pretended was the source of his Middle Earth novels) maintains that Hobbits know nothing of their origins and all the authors could find was myths and stories from the Rohirim.

    However we know from other works that Hobbits are of the race of Men which means their ancestors awoke at Hildorien at the dawn of the First Age of the Sun. Anything between then and their making contact with other peoples during the Third Age is pure speculation and it will be interesting to see how exactly they handle it.



    The actress they chose to play the role has dark skin. As dwarves were originally carved from rock by Aule and the sun is a magic piece of fruit whatever ideas you have about skin-tone in the real world probably doesn't apply the same, unless you're also upset about how Gimli didn't spend all his time complaining about sunburn and the symptoms of vitamin D deficiency.



    In Tolkien's words;

    "When I came to think of it, in my own imagination, beards were not found among Hobbits (as stated in text); nor among the Eldar (not stated). All male Dwarves had them. The wizards had them, though Radagast (not stated) had only short, curling, light brown hair on his chin. Men normally had them when full-grown, hence Eomer, Theoden and all others named. But not Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, Aragorn, Isildur, or other Númenórean chieftains."




    I don't know what you're talking about here.



    This was already covered beautifully by @ringpriest (go back to their post to see Tolkien's actual quotes.)





    What do you consider to be the canonical character of Elrond at this point in his life, what are you basing it on?



    Please explain how you can read my statement "That doesn't meant it will definitely be good but it will certainly be interesting" and think I'm describing it as "the best thing ever."
    so in summary, you agree with my statement regarding harfoots, in that they never existed in any of the works that this pathetic excuse for a media company have the rights to, and as such there's no source material ergo they are a fan fiction creation of pure fantasy by these so called show runners, yes?

    i have no idea what you're talking about 'goalposts' for when it's very clear my context is entirely focused upon the material they have the rights to, and as such EVERYTHING they have shown thus far is fan fiction pure and simple, it is not grounded in the lore of the Tolkien universe, it has literally no basis in lore for anything that they have shown regarding teaser material, and yet you're here telling me i'm wrong?

    based on what has been shown so far they are trying to springboard off the downfall of numenor, meaning that this takes place around 3300 SA, and they have come out and said that they are going to be bending the space-time continuum to make it so events that happened centuries apart are going to happen almost concurrently throughout this show, meaning that people who would never have met are all of a sudden going to be best friends, and places that fell into ruin are suddenly going to be vibrant and full of life because they need it that way for whatever bullshit story they are trying to tell to make sense, but i guess you glossed over that part entirely?

    'what do you consider to be the canonical character of Elrond at this point in his life, what are you basing it on?': assuming they are using the time period i have said above, within a few centuries of time Elrond was not only the herald to Gil-Galad the last high king of the Noldor, he was a warrior, a tactician and great scholar, he knew battle tactics and was fearsome in battle in his own right and within a century of the fall of Numenor he was leading the line of Noldor alongside Gil-Galad across the plains of Gorgoroth as the last alliance of men and elves, yet in this show they are trying to portray him as some kind of feeble and weak politician who acts behind the scenes and is very hands off, please tell me where in any of the written works 'The Hobbit', 'The Lord of the Rings' and their appendices it's stated that Elrond is in any way some kind of shadow character who is only interested in politics at this point of the second age?

    my comment about the super elf and his taboo romance is his entire plot, he is some kind of wandering elf who makes friends with a single mother who is human and they fall madly in love, that's his entire plot, also, he has the magical power to slow down time and pull arrows out of the air and fire them back at the person who originally shot them, because we all know that elves have those kinds of powers /s.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Most Drow spend their entire lives deep underground, and their species has literal black skin (and not just the dark brown that we call "black"). Hell, this is a WoW fan website, so most people should know about Dark Iron dwarves who are depicted in various shades of charcoal. If you wanted to make the case that all Tolkien Dwarves should be white because they live underground, then you'd have to make the case that they should be much much more pale that they're usually depicted. Like, Gollum levels of pale. Since that's an example of a single individual who lived hundreds of years away from the sun, and not an entire species who would have adapted to that environment.

    Or, you could just get the fuck over it and deal with the fact that it's a fantasy race in a fantasy setting and the skin color of them being roughly analogous to IRL humans isn't remarkable.


    Different people have different hairstyles. News at 11. The "hot" dwarves in the Hobbit barely had beards at all. At least not compared to the giant chin-manes that the stereotypical dwarf is depicted with. Do you think that was what made those movies mediocre?


    And this is just the same exact dumbass complaint as the one I just addressed. So...ditto. The "super elf" thing is particularly cute, though, given that...you know...movie Legolas is a thing that exists.



    I said it before, but literally every adaptation whose screenplay isn't written by the original author is just fan fiction. Because those fans bring their own interpretations and cut/add material as they see fit to tell the story they want to tell. This is basic shit, and the fact that you think it's some knock-down argument against this production in particular, is laughable.
    i don't see what the dungeons and dragons characters have to do with middle earth lore and characters therein, but sure, nice strawman you got there, same goes for WoW, what in any way shape or form has that got to do with the price of cheese?, in short nothing whatsoever you just seem to be using it as justification for bad writing/casting.

    i never watched the hobbit films so i can't answer your probably rhetorical question of whether the still images i have seen online of the female dwarves in those films having some degree of facial hair making the films mediocre, i can tell you from the memes and the various shorts i have seen of the films that it's a lot more than that most likely.

    with regards to legolas in the LOTR trilogy the only reason i could give it a pass is because most of what was done isn't really that egregious, but literally slowing down time and catching an arrow out of the air mid flight without causing severe friction burns to the skin that comes in contact with it, not to mention the sheer idiocy of it all is beyond the tipping point, but you know, keep harping on a broken record.

    there have been dozens of absolutely stupendous films made that are pure adaptations of source material with little to no changes made in the source material and it works, and yet here almost everything shown so far as promotional material is not only a pure fabrication of whoever they are paying to write this shit, it's not even believable shit, it's so fantastical and beyond the realms of possibility within the framework of the established lore it's a sick joke and calling it 'faithful' is the same as digging up Tolkien's grave and spitting on whatever remains, i genuinely don't see how you can defend this shit, but again you seem to like tangential things and comparing apples to oranges so i'm sure you'll find a way to jump through enough hoops to make your points stick.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  2. #1522
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    It's even funnier seeing the posts replying to it about how ridiculous a fanfic like this is, while defending... get this, a ridiculous fanfic. But because it's big budget and coming to Amazon, it MUST be more true to Tolkiens work!
    I was actually kind of confused about him responding to you seriously... I mean, it's kind of obvious you were joking, wasn't it? But yeah, you're right, apparently because Amazon made it and is trying to make the show "inclusive", suddenly it justifies their own fanfic. You know, like what they did to the Wheel of Time (and I will never not be mad about that).

  3. #1523
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    so in summary, you agree with my statement regarding harfoots, in that they never existed in any of the works that this pathetic excuse for a media company have the rights to, and as such there's no source material ergo they are a fan fiction creation of pure fantasy by these so called show runners, yes?
    No, the Harfoots exist in the history of Middle-Earth as one of the three breeds of Hobbits that existed in ancient times. While they are only recorded by other peoples from the Third Age and the Hobbits themselves have no knowledge of their history before then Tolkien stated they had lived for "many long years" beneath the notice of the great powers, just a relatively humble group in a world filled with strange creatures.

    i have no idea what you're talking about 'goalposts' for when it's very clear my context is entirely focused upon the material they have the rights to, and as such EVERYTHING they have shown thus far is fan fiction pure and simple, it is not grounded in the lore of the Tolkien universe, it has literally no basis in lore for anything that they have shown regarding teaser material, and yet you're here telling me i'm wrong?
    It's a massive shift to go from "these do not exist in Tolkien's mythology" to "they are not specifically mentioned in these particular writings." There's a huge gap in the history of Middle Earth between men awakening and them first making contact with the Elves which is when their recorded history really begins. If the Hobbits' ancestors had split from the other Men before then there is plenty of time for them to become Halflings (if they didn't start out that way from the dawn of the First Age.) So while nothing in Tolkien's writings directly states that Hobbits existed in the Second Age there is also nothing to contradict the idea that they could.

    BTW the rights aren't as clear cut as you seem to think. They have the rights to the appendices and that allows them to look at other works where they crossover. They can't use anything from the Silmarillion (for example) that isn't mentioned in the appendices, but it isn't strictly off-limits.

    based on what has been shown so far they are trying to springboard off the downfall of numenor, meaning that this takes place around 3300 SA, and they have come out and said that they are going to be bending the space-time continuum to make it so events that happened centuries apart are going to happen almost concurrently throughout this show, meaning that people who would never have met are all of a sudden going to be best friends, and places that fell into ruin are suddenly going to be vibrant and full of life because they need it that way for whatever bullshit story they are trying to tell to make sense, but i guess you glossed over that part entirely?
    "Bending the space-time continuum" is a bit over dramatic, but yes the compression of the timeline is a concern. I have heard that it isn't solely about moving events closer together so flashbacks, memories and exposition could play a part. Overall it is the biggest challenge they face and it will be interesting to see how they balance the needs of a television show with capturing the spirit of the age.

    'what do you consider to be the canonical character of Elrond at this point in his life, what are you basing it on?': assuming they are using the time period i have said above, within a few centuries of time Elrond was not only the herald to Gil-Galad the last high king of the Noldor, he was a warrior, a tactician and great scholar, he knew battle tactics and was fearsome in battle in his own right and within a century of the fall of Numenor he was leading the line of Noldor alongside Gil-Galad across the plains of Gorgoroth as the last alliance of men and elves, yet in this show they are trying to portray him as some kind of feeble and weak politician who acts behind the scenes and is very hands off, please tell me where in any of the written works 'The Hobbit', 'The Lord of the Rings' and their appendices it's stated that Elrond is in any way some kind of shadow character who is only interested in politics at this point of the second age?
    I think your guess about the time period might be off. It's called Rings of Power and I suspect it might deal with the origin of the rings, moving towards the Fall of Numenor. This means we will see Elrond as the herald and lieutenant of Gil-Galad founding Rivendell which looks like the start of his time as a ruler of territory not just a leader.

    my comment about the super elf and his taboo romance is his entire plot, he is some kind of wandering elf who makes friends with a single mother who is human and they fall madly in love, that's his entire plot, also, he has the magical power to slow down time and pull arrows out of the air and fire them back at the person who originally shot them, because we all know that elves have those kinds of powers /s.
    Dunno what the /s is for. Tolkien's Elves are powerful individuals and such a feat isn't beyond them at all. The mightiest elves were capable of fighting balrogs for Eru's sake. I think what you are calling a "magical power to slow down time" is probably a technique called "slow motion" used to show the Elf's faster reactions and movements in a way that we can see and appreciate.

    there have been dozens of absolutely stupendous films made that are pure adaptations of source material with little to no changes made in the source material and it works, and yet here almost everything shown so far as promotional material is not only a pure fabrication of whoever they are paying to write this shit, it's not even believable shit, it's so fantastical and beyond the realms of possibility within the framework of the established lore it's a sick joke and calling it 'faithful' is the same as digging up Tolkien's grave and spitting on whatever remains, i genuinely don't see how you can defend this shit, but again you seem to like tangential things and comparing apples to oranges so i'm sure you'll find a way to jump through enough hoops to make your points stick.
    All this says to me is that you don't really know what there is in the "established lore." Tolkien left a wealth of writings that scholars pick through, and his unpublished works tell many versions of the history of Arda. Don't forget even the Silmarillion remained unpublished in his lifetime and notes and letters show he was going to make major changes to the text that was released after his death.

  4. #1524
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    so in summary, you agree with my statement regarding harfoots, in that they never existed in any of the works that this pathetic excuse for a media company have the rights to, and as such there's no source material ergo they are a fan fiction creation of pure fantasy by these so called show runners, yes?
    Harfoots are literally mentioned in the Appendices. They are a Tolkien creation.

    We just know very little about them.
    Last edited by Triceron; Today at 12:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #1525
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Harfoots are literally mentioned in the Appendices. They are a Tolkien creation.

    We just know very little about them.
    We know the time period they were around, give you a hint it wasn't the 2nd age.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  6. #1526
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    We know the time period they were around, give you a hint it wasn't the 2nd age.
    We know the time period that people first started taking note of them but not when a group recognisable as halflings first appeared.

  7. #1527
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    You've defeated me Dhrizzle, because last night I recognized something hypocritical of myself. I loved the video game Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle Earth and huge amounts of the game were complete nonsense created by the developers. Like Drogoth the Dragon Lord, half-troll units, Galadriel summoning giant tornadoes. The game was also a commercial success for EA games.
    Where did my childhood sense of creativity and suspension of disbelief go, hmm.

  8. #1528
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    We know the time period that people first started taking note of them but not when a group recognisable as halflings first appeared.
    No, we KNOW that hobbits and harfoots didn't appear till the 3rd age, as per Tolkein, you don't get to make up shit just to justify bad fan fic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  9. #1529
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    No, we KNOW that hobbits and harfoots didn't appear till the 3rd age, as per Tolkein, you don't get to make up shit just to justify bad fan fic.
    We know the earliest stories the Hobbits could trace at the end of the Third Age from when they had contact with the ancestors of the Rohirim. We know they are related to Men so their ancestors awoke at the dawn of the First Age of the Sun. Tolkien said their origins lie in the "Elder Days," a term used to describe the years from the creation of Arda to the end of the First Age of the Sun.

  10. #1530
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    We know the earliest stories the Hobbits could trace at the end of the Third Age from when they had contact with the ancestors of the Rohirim. We know they are related to Men so their ancestors awoke at the dawn of the First Age of the Sun. Tolkien said their origins lie in the "Elder Days," a term used to describe the years from the creation of Arda to the end of the First Age of the Sun.
    They didn't exist till the 3rd age. You don't say man awoke the first time our ancestors that we could trace are found, you we go with homo sapian usually. Stop trying to push in bullshit fanfic, don't defend this, you can say you like the Hobbits, it doesn't make it correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  11. #1531
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    They didn't exist till the 3rd age. You don't say man awoke the first time our ancestors that we could trace are found, you we go with homo sapian usually. Stop trying to push in bullshit fanfic, don't defend this, you can say you like the Hobbits, it doesn't make it correct.
    I'm Tolkien's Legendarium the first Men awoke fully formed in Hildorien when the Sun first rose. The Elder Days refers to all the time before then and the first 600 Years of the Sun and this is when the Hobbits origins are said to be by Tolkien.

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