1. #1821
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    You mean star trek NG right? Thats actually a really good example of a show that is diverse without being woke. It never pandered to women or men. It actually celebrated the differences between the genders.

    - - - Updated - - -



    But you didnt - you willingly entered it. And also just to clarify - woke is a term coined by woke people. Its not derogatory or anything to that sort.

    If the discussion seems fruitless on your half thats perfectly fine, you can quit it anytime you want. But when you exit it with a sentence like: "I was just going to say you're wrong, then you edited to add the rest and I see this is just a pointless discussion." you cant expect me to ignore it. A pointless discussion can be many things but when you preface it with "you are wrong" then it narrows it down significantly. Its no longer just an "i dont really want to discuss this anymore" its a "i am right, you are wrong, but you dont get it" and then exit - which is sort of rude since i've argued against anyone who wrote at me without being rude or derogatory.
    /sigh

    I was going to say you're wrong about this bit:
    "Thats exactly what i said - yes - ?"

    Because, no, it isn't what you said.

  2. #1822
    Ok so lets break this up a bit

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I didn’t presume you had a problem, in your own post you said. All I’m doing is trying to figure out what woke fiasco you think it might be based off of what we have seen so far.
    Yes you did:

    . So just to be clear, your problem isn’t that there are black people or fighting woman
    You say it’s not black people and fighting woman but the only other explanation you had given is about a focus on them being black and women and being used a political device and when I ask if that’s what you meant in your original post you say no.
    I havent said no to that. That is literally the problem. The focus on the moral superirority and the political agenda. And i've stated that numerous times and i've given you the same quote twice now on how that might be a problem in the new lotr series.


    it was never a quote about starwars, “The force is female” is a quote from Nike about there shoes it has no ties to starwars, KK was advertising Nike as they were sponsoring the film festival she was invited to speak at.
    “The force” in this context is the Air Force 1 shoe lines nothing else.
    This is not true. You can find the evidence here:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthan...rce_is_female/

    sure you can say the super fans trailer is all you meant when you said it was looking like it might be a woke fiasco.
    Its not all i meant but its a bug part of it. Making elves black and so forth is also a weird choice if not for the sake of diversity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    /sigh

    I was going to say you're wrong about this bit:
    "Thats exactly what i said - yes - ?"

    Because, no, it isn't what you said.
    Interesting. If i remember right i was talking about why they felt the need to make the force female. And then you presented me with a link to a site that desribed the daughter as the light side of the force being female.

    Do you mind telling me exactly what i got wrong?

  3. #1823
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Ok so lets break this up a bit



    Yes you did:
    there was no presumption you brought up how you thought it was looking like it might be a woke fiascos you then gave an example of what you meant, it’s all there in your own post I didn’t have to presume any thing.





    I havent said no to that. That is literally the problem. The focus on the moral superirority and the political agenda. And i've stated that numerous times and i've given you the same quote twice now on how that might be a problem in the new lotr series.
    I asked you to clarify that the example you gave is what you meant from the start and you said I was misquoting you and then pointed to super fans, that’s a no. Unless you want to change the answer to “yes that is what you meant” all along.




    This is not true. You can find the evidence here:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthan...rce_is_female/[
    quote from your link.
    Kathleen Kennedy and the students did not wear the shirts for the Nike campaign.
    You can see the Nike logo on the girl on the rights arms. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/wp...mbed.jpg?w=928https://images.solecollector.com/com...e_1_hugykw.jpg


    Its not all i meant but its a bug part of it. Making elves black and so forth is also a weird choice if not for the sake of diversity.
    aaaaand we’re back to the black people.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-07-18 at 04:27 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #1824
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    /snip
    Oh man, just keep teeing them up and making an even bigger fool of yourself, huh?

    Don’t think you know what the word “pedantic” means since I was clearly on the money with what you meant (lady warrior bad, dark skin bad). What makes this easy is that you decided to double down on ALL of it.

    Despite your massive insecurities, the universe Tolkien created has no issues with either of these things. Galadriel as a fighter is officially referenced (the details are completely open to interpretation since Tolkien only wanted to set up a foundation for others to build on) so we can just put that one to rest. Also, continually tossing around the term “gender politics” as if it means something other than alt right dogwhistling doesn’t help your cause.

    As for casting, a dark skinned actor cast as an elf is still just an elf. Anyone who bitches about melanin in a fantasy world or that anything based on England needs to be white through and through is just a racist cunt. Tolkien certainly made no mention that adaptations must adhere to a strict white-only policy.

    As for your list of franchises supposedly ruined by “wokeness” not a single one of them sticks. Wokeness (which is simply the recognition of prejudice) doesn’t ruin anything. Poorly written plots and shitty character arcs do, and those can be applied to any movie/show regardless of the cast or message.

    - Captain Marvel - DEFINITELY didn’t ruin any franchises (neither the MCU as a whole nor the Marvels subsection). Including this one at the top pretty much already tells me that your opinion is irrelevant
    - MIB International - guessing you forgot that the second one was dogshit, even though it banked on the Will Smith/Tommy Lee Jones chemistry from the first one
    - Charlie’s Angels 2019 - actually better received than the sequel to the first movie. It’s just a campy premise that works less and less in today’s action/spy genre
    - Ghostbusters 2016 - if you think replacing the cast with men while keeping the same rehashed plot and mostly ad libbed dialogue would have made it any better then you’re a fucking idiot. There’s nothing inherently wrong with doing an all woman version of a movie that was originally all men, and it will work when it has a good script
    - Terminator DF - killed the franchise? Thank god. None of the movies since T2 have been good, and the worst part about DF was dredging up Arnold’s old, wrinkled corpse for an attempt at banking on the nostalgia of the original couple movies.
    - Star Wars - oh so I guess you’re in the camp of “conveniently forgot the prequels were absolute shit because the sequels had more women and black people”. This franchise has more misses than hits, and the issues with the sequels have nothing to do with wokeness but rather no consistent plan across the trilogy. “Somehow Palpatine returned…” has nothing to do with wokeness. And yet, this franchise is going to continue chugging along and make boatloads of money
    - Birds of Prey - not a bad movie and definitely didn’t kill any franchises as the characters have already appeared in other movies and sequels/spin-offs are still in development
    - West Side Story 2021 - highly acclaimed movie that received excellent reviews from critics and audiences. It just didn’t do well theatrically due to the fact that musicals generally just don’t do well theatrically and also a Covid resurgence. If you think this movie killed any chance of WSS being performed again then, once more, you’re a fucking idiot

    Bad writing, acting, directing, etc has killed plenty of series without the help of your woke boogie man. The franchises you referenced are either doing just fine or were already doing poorly before the most recent entries (which were ruined more by plot than anything to do with diversity).
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-07-18 at 05:09 PM.

  5. #1825
    I love this discourse in fantasy:

    white people: totally normal
    black people: POLITICAL!

    male protag: totally normal
    female protag: POLITICAL!

    I'm starting to see a trend here

  6. #1826
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Making elves black and so forth is also a weird choice if not for the sake of diversity.
    Why? Why can’t an elf just be an elf regardless of skin color? They didn’t evolve like people, they don’t exist in the real world, they have less in common physiologically with humans than Neanderthal does with modern humans. So, why can’t an actor with a darker complexion just be an elf, no different than one with a paler complexion?

  7. #1827
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    I'm confused are you actually trying to argue that people didn't read lotr? I don't agree with a bunch of that dude's posts but pretty much everyone I know who watched all 3 movies read the books either before or after.
    I didn't say "People don't read LotR".

    What I am saying is that more people have seen the movies than have read the books. And that's true no matter what book series we are talking about.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  8. #1828
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I didn't say "People don't read LotR".

    What I am saying is that more people have seen the movies than have read the books. And that's true no matter what book series we are talking about.
    It's absolutely not Dune, I Robot come to mind of the top of my head but any fairy tale that has been adapted likely has more people that have read it than seen the screen adapts. Also you really underestimate how much reading used to be done and how many people would read Library copies of various books.

  9. #1829
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    It's absolutely not Dune, I Robot come to mind of the top of my head but any fairy tale that has been adapted likely has more people that have read it than seen the screen adapts. Also you really underestimate how much reading used to be done and how many people would read Library copies of various books.
    I'm not getting what is so controversial about saying "More people have watched the LotR movies than have read the books".
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  10. #1830
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Curious how some others in that list are "woke," though. MIB because it starred a women this time? Is that it?
    Yes. That's literally it. The dipshits who slap the "woke" label on any movie or show featuring prominent female, LGBT, and/or non-white characters might have at one point pretended that their sole motivation wasn't bigotry...but that time has long since passed.

  11. #1831
    MIB is a weird example because the movie is literally about replacing two old and out-of-touch white dudes with a black man and, by the end of the movie, a young woman.

    The very first movie.

    Edit: I'm old enough to remember The Wiz, where it replaced all the characters in the Wizard of Oz with black men and women. Black Dorothy, black Scarecrow (played by Michael Jackson), etc. Why wasn't that woke pandering then? The original Judy Garland version had all white people, and the book it was based on was about white people. It's almost like this fucking insane furor is made up bigotry because y'all can't keep media lily white. It's not woke pandering to simply include a woman or black person in a piece of media, even if -gasp- they're the main character. I spent my entire childhood as a brown man looking up to and adoring white characters, why are y'all so fragile that you can't relate to a black man or woman on screen?
    Last edited by eschatological; 2022-07-18 at 08:25 PM.

  12. #1832
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    MIB is a weird example because the movie is literally about replacing two old and out-of-touch white dudes with a black man and, by the end of the movie, a young woman.

    The very first movie.
    Just to add onto MIB, Jay in the original comics was a white dude, stereotypically so. Will Smith is decidedly not white, where was the outrage over that happening?

  13. #1833
    Warchief rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Oh man, just keep teeing them up and making an even bigger fool of yourself, huh?

    Don’t think you know what the word “pedantic” means since I was clearly on the money with what you meant (lady warrior bad, dark skin bad). What makes this easy is that you decided to double down on ALL of it.

    Despite your massive insecurities, the universe Tolkien created has no issues with either of these things. Galadriel as a fighter is officially referenced (the details are completely open to interpretation since Tolkien only wanted to set up a foundation for others to build on) so we can just put that one to rest. Also, continually tossing around the term “gender politics” as if it means something other than alt right dogwhistling doesn’t help your cause.

    As for casting, a dark skinned actor cast as an elf is still just an elf. Anyone who bitches about melanin in a fantasy world or that anything based on England needs to be white through and through is just a racist cunt. Tolkien certainly made no mention that adaptations must adhere to a strict white-only policy.

    As for your list of franchises supposedly ruined by “wokeness” not a single one of them sticks. Wokeness (which is simply the recognition of prejudice) doesn’t ruin anything. Poorly written plots and shitty character arcs do, and those can be applied to any movie/show regardless of the cast or message.

    - Captain Marvel - DEFINITELY didn’t ruin any franchises (neither the MCU as a whole nor the Marvels subsection). Including this one at the top pretty much already tells me that your opinion is irrelevant
    - MIB International - guessing you forgot that the second one was dogshit, even though it banked on the Will Smith/Tommy Lee Jones chemistry from the first one
    - Charlie’s Angels 2019 - actually better received than the sequel to the first movie. It’s just a campy premise that works less and less in today’s action/spy genre
    - Ghostbusters 2016 - if you think replacing the cast with men while keeping the same rehashed plot and mostly ad libbed dialogue would have made it any better then you’re a fucking idiot. There’s nothing inherently wrong with doing an all woman version of a movie that was originally all men, and it will work when it has a good script
    - Terminator DF - killed the franchise? Thank god. None of the movies since T2 have been good, and the worst part about DF was dredging up Arnold’s old, wrinkled corpse for an attempt at banking on the nostalgia of the original couple movies.
    - Star Wars - oh so I guess you’re in the camp of “conveniently forgot the prequels were absolute shit because the sequels had more women and black people”. This franchise has more misses than hits, and the issues with the sequels have nothing to do with wokeness but rather no consistent plan across the trilogy. “Somehow Palpatine returned…” has nothing to do with wokeness. And yet, this franchise is going to continue chugging along and make boatloads of money
    - Birds of Prey - not a bad movie and definitely didn’t kill any franchises as the characters have already appeared in other movies and sequels/spin-offs are still in development
    - West Side Story 2021 - highly acclaimed movie that received excellent reviews from critics and audiences. It just didn’t do well theatrically due to the fact that musicals generally just don’t do well theatrically and also a Covid resurgence. If you think this movie killed any chance of WSS being performed again then, once more, you’re a fucking idiot

    Bad writing, acting, directing, etc has killed plenty of series without the help of your woke boogie man. The franchises you referenced are either doing just fine or were already doing poorly before the most recent entries (which were ruined more by plot than anything to do with diversity).
    1) please quote for me, in any of the comments i have made where i said those words, because unless i'm living in opposite land, i did not mention those words ever, nor did i insinuate them, you're the one who keeps bringing it up standing on your imaginary holier than thou morality mound, and yes, to answer your moronic question, 'warrior woman bad' in the context of this SPECIFIC character, that is correct, because she never was, she never lead armies, she never wore full plate armour and fought in great battles, certainly never anything in the second age, she was a cunning and wise elf who used primarily what would be termed 'magecraft' when she engaged in combat, she never had a fucking word and never wielded one in any of the stories i have read, so again, please explain to me how completely rewriting (and badly at that) a very well established and beloved character into a woke super powered warrior goddess who swings a sword around and sits in a power stance that mimics a man is anything other than 'woke', don't worry, i'm patient so i'll happily wait to see what mental gymnastics you'll try to perform to justify this utter bullshit.

    2) i'm perfectly secure, but again, you making assumptions and looking like an ass seems to be a personal hobby of yours based on the limited interaction i have had with you, so it doesn't surprise me that you try the old 'ha gottem' trope when in reality you're a million miles from even being close.

    3) no, but he did make damn sure that any potential adaptation was strictly loyal to the source material, which none of this clusterfuck waiting to happen is even remotely close to, but you keep telling yourself that the diversity hire is a good pick for the franchise which based on all available lore from the original author shouldn't and likely couldn't exist within the context of his in universe race, but again, i'm excited to see what mental gymnastics come out to justify this nonesense.

    4) your definition of 'wokeness' isn't even remotely close to the actual definition, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'prejudice', it's got everything to do with shoehorning in characters/story arcs/locations and/or 'others' into franchises where they don't exist and don't belong, again unless i'm living in a different universe where words meanings have changed to something completely different, that's got nothing at all to do with 'prejudice' in any capacity.

    5) WSS was not a production performed in the west end of london or broadway or any other well known theatre production location with a world renowned reputation, it was a movie, it was so badly received both from critics and from fans that it barely made 10% of its budget back, so where the fuck you got the 'highly acclaimed' from i'll never know, you're just making shit up again because nowhere when i was looking for these examples that people demanded to have because you and the others are too fucking lazy to do it yourself, not a good thing was said about this particular production, and as for killing it off, yes, this incarnation did indeed kill it off, it will never be performed again and the only time that you will see 'west side story' is in a totally new production with totally new cast and staff etc etc, but i'm guessing you're too small minded to understand such a thing.

    6) captain marvel the movie once the pre release sales are removed from revenue calculations was the single worst performing marvel movie of the entire MCU era of movies and was so badly received post launch thanks in part to the utterly moronic comments made by brie larson that she was on the verge of being recast and any further movies scrapped/reshot and remade from the ground up, but thanks to covid it likely meant those plans had to be shelved due to costs, not only that, but it hurt the marvel/disney brand so badly that kevin feige even did damage control himself, so please tell me why the head honcho himself would need to do damage control over utterly terrible PR if the film was such a 'success'?

    7) the only 'prequel' movie for star wars i have seen was the episode 3 film, and the only reason i have seen that is because i got it on DVD as a christmas present one year and i haven't watched it since, so i can't say about the others because i haven't seen them, and as for the 'new trilogy' i only saw the first one and knew enough that plot armour rey was going to be the focal point of the films so haven't bothered to watch any movies or shows that have released since then, but i guess you know better than me since you're an expert on these matters right?

    8) 'birds of prey' had a sequel announced before the first had released, then after the bad reception of the first the sequel has either been delayed with no actual end date, or terminated as a result of the utterly shambolic performance, but i guess that doesn't fit your narrative so you conveniently ignored that part of things.

    9) i haven't watched a terminator movie since judgement day, and genuinely i couldn't care less about it, all i know is that both critically and commercially the last couple of films have been so bad that no new films have been greenlit and based on what i could quickly serch up no film studio is willing to take the risk on another flop so it's essentially a dead franchise now until such a time that the woke brigade dies out and a reboot comes along.

    10) i'm fully aware of what pedantic means, that's why i used that word specifically to call you out on your bullshit strawman, it would appear that you don't know the meaning of it, nor the meaning of many other words or phrases based on your utterly ridiculous response, if you have any kind of actual arguement that isn't 'ha gottem' or 'ha racist cos you disagree with making sure the boxes are ticked off' then stop responding, because i'm bored of seeing that same worn out non arguement as the only thing you seem to be grasping on to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    MIB is a weird example because the movie is literally about replacing two old and out-of-touch white dudes with a black man and, by the end of the movie, a young woman.

    The very first movie.

    Edit: I'm old enough to remember The Wiz, where it replaced all the characters in the Wizard of Oz with black men and women. Black Dorothy, black Scarecrow (played by Michael Jackson), etc. Why wasn't that woke pandering then? The original Judy Garland version had all white people, and the book it was based on was about white people. It's almost like this fucking insane furor is made up bigotry because y'all can't keep media lily white. It's not woke pandering to simply include a woman or black person in a piece of media, even if -gasp- they're the main character. I spent my entire childhood as a brown man looking up to and adoring white characters, why are y'all so fragile that you can't relate to a black man or woman on screen?
    i genuinely couldn't care less what a person looks like, especially when they are actually good at their craft in media, what i care about is 'forced diversity hires' which is exactly what this show is doing because as everybody knows, Amazon has a mandatory diversity hire quota that must be met, it was leaked by a former producer and caused uproar at that point in time.

    if you have 2 actors, one is a stereotypical white guy, one is a stereotypical 'insert minority here' and the white guys is the best candidate for the job, but the diversity is chosen because of what they are that's in my book racism, the best person for the job should always be the one who gets the job, regardless of who they are, and yet time and time again for the last decade or so, a lot of shows/movies (and more recently games), have been shoehorning in characters that don't make sense just to appeal to the minority crowd and making the general majority out to be bad guys for not liking this 'wokeness', as you are doing now with your final few words, while i can't speak for others, many people are not so bothered by race and gender that it causes them to flee into a rage over hiring someone who is black/olive/asian/hispanic/gay etc, it's that they shouldn't be part of that franchise at all based on already established lore, if they are well written and created to compliment the already established characters, literally nobody cares, but when the main characters are rewritten from being a stereotypical white guy and changed into a black guy, why?, what purpose does that serve other than annoying fans who already know that specific character as a white guy.

    i love Blade, i'm a massive wesley snipes fan, i think he's a phenomenal actor and he made that character his own, i love SLJ and the myriad films he has been a part of from pulp fiction to django unchained to marvel stuff to 'the banker' and other films that were just phenomenal, i really liked 'the help' and was happy to see octavia spencer get her well deserved oscar award, and while i would happily keep listing people who are not white who i thoroughly enjoy watching media about, i hope this is enough to make my point, and i pray you have the grey matter faculties necessary to understand the point being made and aren't just another of those who flies off the handle with faux outrage.


  14. #1834
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    1) please quote for me, in any of the comments i have made where i said those words, because unless i'm living in opposite land, i did not mention those words ever, nor did i insinuate them, you're the one who keeps bringing it up standing on your imaginary holier than thou morality mound, and yes, to answer your moronic question, 'warrior woman bad' in the context of this SPECIFIC character, that is correct, because she never was, she never lead armies, she never wore full plate armour and fought in great battles, certainly never anything in the second age, she was a cunning and wise elf who used primarily what would be termed 'magecraft' when she engaged in combat, she never had a fucking word and never wielded one in any of the stories i have read, so again, please explain to me how completely rewriting (and badly at that) a very well established and beloved character into a woke super powered warrior goddess who swings a sword around and sits in a power stance that mimics a man is anything other than 'woke', don't worry, i'm patient so i'll happily wait to see what mental gymnastics you'll try to perform to justify this utter bullshit.
    Please expand on what you would call "magecraft" in regard to Tolkien's elves in combat.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    3) no, but he did make damn sure that any potential adaptation was strictly loyal to the source material, which none of this clusterfuck waiting to happen is even remotely close to, but you keep telling yourself that the diversity hire is a good pick for the franchise which based on all available lore from the original author shouldn't and likely couldn't exist within the context of his in universe race, but again, i'm excited to see what mental gymnastics come out to justify this nonesense.
    No he didn't. There is a letter in which Tolkien rips apart a treatment for a LotR movie (that was never made in the end) but he prefaces it by apologising if the creators of the film found him irritating. He certainly didn't block it from being made.

  15. #1835
    The Lightbringer zEmini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Why? Why can’t an elf just be an elf regardless of skin color? They didn’t evolve like people, they don’t exist in the real world, they have less in common physiologically with humans than Neanderthal does with modern humans. So, why can’t an actor with a darker complexion just be an elf, no different than one with a paler complexion?
    A black person can totally play a elf, but you still got to respect the source material. Story tellers could develop a new clan of elves who have darker skin or use whiteface. I really do not care either way.
    Last edited by zEmini; 2022-07-18 at 10:47 PM.

  16. #1836
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    A black person can totally play a elf, but you still got to respect the source material. Story tellers could develop a new clan of elves who have darker skin or use whiteface. I really do not care either way.
    I don't see a lot of media about Jesus respecting the source material. Dude was brown IRL and yet every image plastered most everywhere he's the whitest dude you've ever met.

  17. #1837
    The Lightbringer zEmini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inafume View Post
    I don't see a lot of media about Jesus respecting the source material. Dude was brown IRL and yet every image plastered most everywhere he's the whitest dude you've ever met.
    Well if a story was based on the real Jesus then yes you have a point. But according to the religious fairy tale, that is up to the story teller.

  18. #1838
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    Well if a story was based on the real Jesus then yes you have a point. But according to the religious fairy tale, that is up to the story teller.
    You know that lord of the rings is a "fairy tale" too, right? Shouldn't that also be up to the story teller?

    I love this "You can fuck around with the bible all you want...but this is Lord of the Rings. This is serious." energy
    Last edited by Evil Midnight Bomber; 2022-07-18 at 11:28 PM.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  19. #1839
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    1) please quote for me, in any of the comments i have made where i said those words, because unless i'm living in opposite land, i did not mention those words ever, nor did i insinuate them, you're the one who keeps bringing it up standing on your imaginary holier than thou morality mound, and yes, to answer your moronic question, 'warrior woman bad' in the context of this SPECIFIC character, that is correct, because she never was, she never lead armies, she never wore full plate armour and fought in great battles, certainly never anything in the second age, she was a cunning and wise elf who used primarily what would be termed 'magecraft' when she engaged in combat, she never had a fucking word and never wielded one in any of the stories i have read, so again, please explain to me how completely rewriting (and badly at that) a very well established and beloved character into a woke super powered warrior goddess who swings a sword around and sits in a power stance that mimics a man is anything other than 'woke', don't worry, i'm patient so i'll happily wait to see what mental gymnastics you'll try to perform to justify this utter bullshit.

    2) i'm perfectly secure, but again, you making assumptions and looking like an ass seems to be a personal hobby of yours based on the limited interaction i have had with you, so it doesn't surprise me that you try the old 'ha gottem' trope when in reality you're a million miles from even being close.

    3) no, but he did make damn sure that any potential adaptation was strictly loyal to the source material, which none of this clusterfuck waiting to happen is even remotely close to, but you keep telling yourself that the diversity hire is a good pick for the franchise which based on all available lore from the original author shouldn't and likely couldn't exist within the context of his in universe race, but again, i'm excited to see what mental gymnastics come out to justify this nonesense.

    4) your definition of 'wokeness' isn't even remotely close to the actual definition, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'prejudice', it's got everything to do with shoehorning in characters/story arcs/locations and/or 'others' into franchises where they don't exist and don't belong, again unless i'm living in a different universe where words meanings have changed to something completely different, that's got nothing at all to do with 'prejudice' in any capacity.

    5) WSS was not a production performed in the west end of london or broadway or any other well known theatre production location with a world renowned reputation, it was a movie, it was so badly received both from critics and from fans that it barely made 10% of its budget back, so where the fuck you got the 'highly acclaimed' from i'll never know, you're just making shit up again because nowhere when i was looking for these examples that people demanded to have because you and the others are too fucking lazy to do it yourself, not a good thing was said about this particular production, and as for killing it off, yes, this incarnation did indeed kill it off, it will never be performed again and the only time that you will see 'west side story' is in a totally new production with totally new cast and staff etc etc, but i'm guessing you're too small minded to understand such a thing.

    6) captain marvel the movie once the pre release sales are removed from revenue calculations was the single worst performing marvel movie of the entire MCU era of movies and was so badly received post launch thanks in part to the utterly moronic comments made by brie larson that she was on the verge of being recast and any further movies scrapped/reshot and remade from the ground up, but thanks to covid it likely meant those plans had to be shelved due to costs, not only that, but it hurt the marvel/disney brand so badly that kevin feige even did damage control himself, so please tell me why the head honcho himself would need to do damage control over utterly terrible PR if the film was such a 'success'?

    7) the only 'prequel' movie for star wars i have seen was the episode 3 film, and the only reason i have seen that is because i got it on DVD as a christmas present one year and i haven't watched it since, so i can't say about the others because i haven't seen them, and as for the 'new trilogy' i only saw the first one and knew enough that plot armour rey was going to be the focal point of the films so haven't bothered to watch any movies or shows that have released since then, but i guess you know better than me since you're an expert on these matters right?

    8) 'birds of prey' had a sequel announced before the first had released, then after the bad reception of the first the sequel has either been delayed with no actual end date, or terminated as a result of the utterly shambolic performance, but i guess that doesn't fit your narrative so you conveniently ignored that part of things.

    9) i haven't watched a terminator movie since judgement day, and genuinely i couldn't care less about it, all i know is that both critically and commercially the last couple of films have been so bad that no new films have been greenlit and based on what i could quickly serch up no film studio is willing to take the risk on another flop so it's essentially a dead franchise now until such a time that the woke brigade dies out and a reboot comes along.

    10) i'm fully aware of what pedantic means, that's why i used that word specifically to call you out on your bullshit strawman, it would appear that you don't know the meaning of it, nor the meaning of many other words or phrases based on your utterly ridiculous response, if you have any kind of actual arguement that isn't 'ha gottem' or 'ha racist cos you disagree with making sure the boxes are ticked off' then stop responding, because i'm bored of seeing that same worn out non arguement as the only thing you seem to be grasping on to.
    1. Take it up with Tolkien himself who rewrote Galadriel into an Amazon, pupil to ALL the Valar making her on par with the great lore-masters and warriors of the Eldar. Tolkien was well into revising Galadriel into the most powerful and skilled being in Middle Earth but died before expanding her stories in the Second Age. Depicting her as a warrior leader in the show is not only acceptable, but more than likely what Tolkien would have done.

    2. Your reasonings and mentality have been crystal clear from the start, you just don’t like being called out on your bullshit.

    3. Tolkien said nothing of the sort. In fact, he was fully in board with the adaptations of his works being molded by the hands of the writers and artists who came after him. The “source material” was a work that was constantly undergoing revisions. Nor is there any evidence to suggest that Tolkien would have had any issue with an elf being played onscreen by a non-white actor. This is PURELY racist conjecture coming from the scumbags like yourself who refer to most minority castings as “diversity hires”.

    4. It’s really not that hard to google the definition. It seems you’re only aware of the term in the more recent context of the far Right trying to turn it into a pejorative to toss around whenever they’re called out for being racist, sexist, etc.
    By definition, “woke” just means aware of prejudice and discrimination. It is a bit telling that people like yourself who only use it as an insult don’t even know where the term came from…

    5. You’re talking about the Spielberg directed movie of 2021 that holds a higher than 90% approval rating from both critics and audiences, an A rating from audiences on Cinemascore, and was nominated for multiple Academy Awards (including best picture) as well as a litany of other accolades? That one? Yeah, I don’t think this is going to kill future productions of West Side Story.

    6. You must be living in a weird alternate reality if you think Captain Marvel did poorly financially, critically, or based on audience appeal. Both CinemaScore and PostTrack (far more legitimate audience gauging polls when RottenTomatoes gets review bombed by pathetic incels) showed audience reactions were overwhelmingly positive. I don’t know what you’re referencing about Feige doing damage control but if it has anything to do with the Brie Larsen/internet incel “drama” then it has little to do with the movie itself and it’s unambiguous success.

    7. Dude, if you haven’t even seen most of the Star Wars movies then shut your mouth and avoid looking like an idiot when referring to it as having been destroyed by too much woke (despite the fact that the franchise continues to be extremely popular and profitable).

    8. It did pretty well coming off the heels of the first Suicide Squad with generally positive reviews from critics and audiences. It didn’t do well financially, but it was better regarded that a lot of other DCU movies and those franchises/characters continue chugging along as well.

    9. So another example about you talking out your ass about movies/franchises you know little about. I’ll reiterate what I said before (having watched all the Terminator movies), the franchise has been a disappointment since T2 and not because of any sort of made up diversity initiatives.

    10. It’s pretty clear at this point that you really have no idea what you’re talking about and just parrot the alt right/incel talking points you’ve heard online about diversity, being woke, etc. There was nothing pedantic about my first response to you calling out the fact that diversity and warrior women (including Galadriel) are a part of Tolkien’s universe. These are facts that you’re simply oblivious to.

  20. #1840
    Warchief rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Please expand on what you would call "magecraft" in regard to Tolkien's elves in combat.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No he didn't. There is a letter in which Tolkien rips apart a treatment for a LotR movie (that was never made in the end) but he prefaces it by apologising if the creators of the film found him irritating. He certainly didn't block it from being made.
    1) it's hard to really describe as the magic system of middle earth isn't formulaic like almost every major fantasy franchise in existence today, you can't just take element A + element B and get element C, that's not how it works, in some instances it's very literal, in some cases it's extremely nuanced, for example the black speech of mordor is a total bastardisation of the elven language quenya, and as such was taken by sauron, and twisted like all things evil does it cannot create anew but corrupt and destroy that which was made by good, and when spoken in earshot of elves causes them physical distress and pain, the only word i could really come up with to describe how galadriel exists is 'magecraft' in that she uses the same kinds of techniques as others able to harness the magical power of middle earth where words have real power and can do extraordinary things, as well as using artefacts and objects of great power such as her mirror which is unique in all of middle earth, she can peer into the minds of those she encounters and speaks to them through this medium, she sows doubt and despair in foes through this kind of technique, honestly it's difficult to really describe properly due to the nuance of the whole thing.

    2) "I do earnestly hope that in the assignment of actual speeches to the characters they will be represented as i have presented them: in style and sentiment. I should resent perversion of the characters." -JRR Tolkein, this is a direct quote from the letter in question that you're trying to refer to, to translate for modern times:

    'if you don't have the characters of your adaptation use the text i have written for them in my books, you will be hearing from my lawyers'

    aka 'STRICTLY LOYAL TO THE SOURCE MATERIAL', he was very clear that if it wasn't as he wrote it, he would not be a happy bunny lets put it that way, i would hardly call that 'not blocking it from being made' as at that time i would expect the author likely held a lot more sway over a project and if they said 'do it as i say or else' then studios likely would bend to the request unlike now where the woke brigade is hellbent on appealing to a minority audience in the hope of scoring brownie points for how many politically correct boxes they can check off the bingo card.

    obviously only Tolkein himself and those closest to him were privy to those kinds of conversations about potential projects and how they should be made, in his view, but based on what has been said historically it's a strong bet that if he were able to see this mess from beyond the grave he would likely be saying some very choice things and condemning it in every language of man.


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