Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[s_bushido]

Take a look at whatever war is currently being waged and take a census of the dead soldiers there. Use that gender ratio to truly "reflect what our modern world looks like".

What our modern world looks like for most people, is a world where you can boot up pretty much any game with combat elements and male/female characters perform exactly the same, so the choice is purely aesthetic. Bigots probably vastly overestimate how twisted everyone else's panties will become when they see female soldiers in some work of fiction.

[jonnysensible]

Take a look at whatever war is currently being waged and take a census of the dead soldiers there. Use that gender ratio to truly "reflect what our modern world looks like".

well its 90-80/10-20 men to women in most modern armed forces. Bet the balance was alot closer to 50/50 in the ancient world out of necessity. Britons, Gaul, Scythian etc.

[Veggie50]

Oof, sounds like they are totally rewriting the fall of Numenor.

TV version has Numenor being ruled by the Queen-Regent Tar-Miriel and her chief advisor is someone called Ar-Pharazon who slowly usurps power from her and takes over. This is rather different from the canon lore version.

Back story is that in the first age, two brothers of mixed heritage (human, elven and maia) were born, one called Elrond and one called Elros. At the end of the first age they were given the choice they were given the choice of wether to be counted among the elves or humans. Elrond chose the elves and Elros the humans. An island was raised from the sea, Numenor, and given to Elros and the other good humans as a reward for their aid, but they were also given very long life as well.

At first all goes well, but as time passes the kings of Numenor slowly start to go bad, wishing for eternal life and not just long life. They no longer take elven names but start using another language, Adunaic. Towards the end, a last good king rises, Tar-Palantir, who returns to the old ways, but by this stage the Faithful are in a minority, and the faction known a the King's Men, which has been around for hundreds of years and hates the elves and the Valar, is in the majority. In this case it is led by the king's younger brother, Gimilkhad. When he dies unnaturally young, it is taken over by his son Pharazon.

When Tar-Palantir dies, his only child, Miriel, should have been the rightful queen, but Pharazon takes over instead, marries Miriel, his first cousin, against her will and usurps the throne.

Miriel never ruled, and wasn't regent for anyone. She was a tragic figure, her throne usurped by her cousin who raped her, and dying when Numenor was sunk beneath the waves.

A change indeed, but a rather understandable one... If they want to explain the entire plot of numenors rise and fall they'd have to go further back in time than they seem to want. So they need to condense things. They clearly do want to mark the rize of Pharazon, so they need to have another leader in power before him, who he can usurp. If you go through the "marrying my niece" route you have to give way more backstory.

[Shadowferal]

Bet the balance was alot closer to 50/50 in the ancient world out of necessity. Britons, Gaul, Scythian etc.

50/50? You'd lose that bet.
Sure, women warriors existed, but their numbers were never that great to begin with. A better representation is in west Africa, the 19th century Dahomey Amazons

[jonnysensible]

snip

though the old romans were like 'holy fuck whats with all these chicks with swords' whenever they headed north

[Nerovar]

What our modern world looks like for most people, is a world where you can boot up pretty much any game with combat elements and male/female characters perform exactly the same, so the choice is purely aesthetic. Bigots probably vastly overestimate how twisted everyone else's panties will become when they see female soldiers in some work of fiction.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here and I'm not even sure I want to.

well its 90-80/10-20 men to women in most modern armed forces. Bet the balance was alot closer to 50/50 in the ancient world out of necessity. Britons, Gaul, Scythian etc.

Assuming this is a serious response I can only strongly advise you to pick up a history book.

[ringpriest]

I wonder which part of Tolkien's world involved people living to be hundreds of years old.

All of it? The elves (both the Noldor from the Blessed Realm and those of Middle-Earth) are effectively immortal, the dwarves live for about two and a half centuries on average, and the people of Numenor had extremely long lifespans as well.

they [Númenóreans] remained unwearied for thrice the span of mortal Men in Middle-earth; but to Eärendil's son the longest life of any Man was given, and to his descendants a lesser span and yet one greater than to others even of the Númenóreans.

And that was out of the gate, at the start of Numenor. Later (both chronologically on Numenor itself and in Tolkien's later writings) the average Numenorean lifespan was five times that of mortal Men, due to living more like the Eldar (the Elves), with the Line of Elros still living longer than others.

It appears that the show may be trying to compress over a thousand years of history, but Numenoreans (and Elves, of course) did have very long lifespans. Even in the Third Age, the Dunedain lived longer than other men - Aragorn in 87 during the events of Lord of the Rings, and lives to over 200.

[Ihavewaffles]

i thought sauron would look something like this, sneaky guy, not emo goth drugged face eminem..

[s_bushido]

All of it?

The idiot I was responding to said:

they are going to introduce changes to make the show more reflective of our modern world (as opposed to, you know, Tolkien's world) but now we're moving into territory that doesn't even reflect our modern world

No one in Tolkien's world (mid 20th century England) lived to be centuries old. Morons are perfectly happy accepting myriad fantastical elements in stories like this...from talking trees, to immortal races, to literal magic...but when it comes to women in the military? That's too fictional to even imagine!

[Nerovar]

No one in Tolkien's world (mid 20th century England) lived to be centuries old. Morons are perfectly happy accepting myriad fantastical elements in stories like this...from talking trees, to immortal races, to literal magic...but when it comes to women in the military? That's too fictional to even imagine!

You do realize that "Tolkien's world" was referring to the world Tolkien created -- the world this TV show is supposedly set in?

[s_bushido]

You do realize that "Tolkien's world" was referring to the world Tolkien created -- the world this TV show is supposedly set in?

No. I did not realize that. And since I assume you're pretending to quote the showrunners with this "our modern world" shit, complaining about me taking you out of context to intentionally make you look bad probably isn't a good idea, given that everyone who is riding along with you on that bandwagon does the exact same thing to them at every opportunity.

[Nerovar]

No. I did not realize that. And since I assume you're pretending to quote the showrunners with this "our modern world" shit, complaining about me taking you out of context to intentionally make you look bad probably isn't a good idea, given that everyone who is riding along with you on that bandwagon does the exact same thing to them at every opportunity.

I'm not complaining about you "taking me out of context". I'm sneering at you for going down the usual dialogue tree in the most grandstanding way while missing the (pretty obvious) point.

Oh, and just for the sake of clarity this is the quote I alluded to earlier "It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world [obviously meaning the modern, western world] actually looks like".

[s_bushido]

I'm sneering at you for going down the usual dialogue tree in the most grandstanding way while missing the (pretty obvious) point.

Ah, is that what you were doing? Probably best if next time you don't start off the dialogue tree with an unsolicited post about how there are too many vaginas in the Numenorean army for your liking, then.

Oh, and just for the sake of clarity this is the quote I paraphrased earlier "It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world [obviously meaning the modern, western world] actually looks like".

“It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like,” says Lindsey Weber, executive producer of the series. “Tolkien is for everyone. His stories are about his fictional races doing their best work when they leave the isolation of their own cultures and come together.”

But I guess you disagree with the part you left off. Tolkien's work isn't for everyone, nor is it about people putting aside their differences and coming together to defeat an evil that would see them all subjugated or destroyed.

[Nerovar]

Ah, is that what you were doing? Probably best if next time you don't start off the dialogue tree with an unsolicited post about how there are too many vaginas in the Numenorean army for your liking, then.

My post was about how they prioritize their modern day political goals over the facts of the world Tolkien has created. Care to point out where I'm wrong?

But I guess you disagree with the part you left off. Tolkien's work isn't for everyone, nor is it about people putting aside their differences and coming together to defeat an evil that would see them all subjugated or destroyed.

Was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy not "for everyone"? Do you think women cannot watch those movies because there are no female Gondorian soldiers or Rohirrim (apart from Éowyn) fighting on the Pelennor fields? Do you even realize how absurd this line of argumentation sounds?

[eschatological]

Was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy not "for everyone"? Do you think women cannot watch those movies because there are no female Gondorian soldiers or Rohirrim (apart from Éowyn) fighting on the Pelennor fields? Do you even realize how absurd this line of argumentation sounds?

Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.

[bledgor]

Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.

I mean not great to use personal experience as my mom who is in her 60s enjoyed them with me (though she didn't want to see the return of the king the 3rd or 4th time I went to be fair). I also know quite a few women in there 30s that enjoyed them too so, to each there own experiences.

[Nerovar]

Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.

That is an anecdote not really backed by the actual numbers of people who watched the movies in the cinema back then.

Females “have definitely been the growth business of the movie,” says Russell Schwartz, New Line’s president of domestic marketing. “The audience for each movie has grown, and a large portion of that has been female, both younger and older.”

Schwartz says the percentage of the audience that is female has gone from 42% for “Fellowship of the Ring” to 50% for “King.” Fantasy movies have traditionally had a male-dominated audience.[...]

“We’ve found on “Return of the King” that females are bigger repeaters than males,” Schwartz says. Exit polls conducted by New Line three weeks after “Kings’ ” release showed that 56% of women under 25 had seen the movie at least once and 6% had seen it at least four times. By comparison, 54% of males under 25 had seen the it once and 4% had seen it four times or more.

(https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...ay1-story.html)

Seems pretty balanced to me.

Also to offer an anecdote of my own: I'm in my 20s and almost all of the die-hard LotR fans I know are women.

[Adamas102]

Was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy not "for everyone"? Do you think women cannot watch those movies because there are no female Gondorian soldiers or Rohirrim (apart from Éowyn) fighting on the Pelennor fields?

Or there’s nothing wrong with either approach.

PJ did make some small steps towards making the movies a bit less of a sausage fest. That’s fine, he was working with a pretty set narrative. Increasing the female presence in the show (which is based more on a list of events and loose sets of notes) is fine as well.

Anyone who thinks this ruins Tolkien’s world needs to get over themselves. The heroes of Tolkien’s world aren’t defined by their gender or skin color. They’re defined by their actions and how they stand up against evil.

[VMSmith]

Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.

My wife was absolutely distraught at the death of Gandalf, having not read the books, and practically dragged me to the next two films ... even though I was the one who listed The Hobbit as the first book I ever read (on the recommendation of my mother, as well).

And some of my favorite movies are Me Before You and The Holiday, among many other romantic comedies and tragedies and such.

What I find funny is that while trying to accuse people of sexist ideology you personally engage in sexist accusations. Claiming that women don't like swords and sorcery and men don't like romance is your inner sexist showing through. Much like the accusations of "racist!" whenever someone states that they don't like diversity casting for the sake of diversity casting ... it's people projecting their inner racism onto others.

[Nerovar]

Or there’s nothing wrong with either approach.

PJ did make some small steps towards making the movies a bit less of a sausage fest. That’s fine, he was working with a pretty set narrative. Increasing the female presence in the show (which is based more on a list of events and loose sets of notes) is fine as well.

Anyone who thinks this ruins Tolkien’s world needs to get over themselves. The heroes of Tolkien’s world aren’t defined by their gender or skin color. They’re defined by their actions and how they stand up against evil.

I think we have plenty of stories about good guys (and girls) standing up against evil that also conform to our modern day notions of what societies should look like. So why does this need to be imposed on every story with brute force? Furthermore, there are ways to create more female presence without overwriting the rules of a setting. It would simply take more effort.

Tolkien's universe is fundamentally medieval. It draws on medieval poetry, uses medieval styles of writing and is largely medieval in the way society is organized. Tolkien goes to great lengths to create an "air" of historicity for his world. This naturally includes gender relations which are explicitly stated throughout his works. If you take that aspect away, you are changing these stories whether you want to admit it or not. For example, Éowyn's story wouldn't even make sense if women were equal to men because (contrary to your claim) this character is literally defined by her gender and her personal struggle to conform with the social role it entails.