Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Grimbold21]

... skin color often IS a strong part of peoples personal identity. Its not racism to say that, if anything its racism to say its not. Like one of those people who say "I dont see race" which is more often than not code for "I'm tottally a racist"

Ah this is the latest exercise in "there's no way you can win".

"I don't see race" = that's racism, you are invalidating the problematic experience of an entire community.
"I understand and sympathize with your experiences" = That's racist, you can never truly understand the experience of a minority.

Here's the ironic bit though. That entire racial identity? It's primarily built around what other people think of it.

What's the endgoal there? That one cant truly understand and merely step aside? How about no.

[Shadowferal]

[VinceVega]

My problem is and always will be that its tokenism and marketting.

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Would you be fine if it was a piece of literature based on African folklore that decided to make the characters white?


Its just tokenism. Its a marketting ploy. And its going to work as it has so many times before.

First of all it is fantasy. Everything about it is completly pulled out of tolkiens arse. And compared to actuall folklore it has just been written.
This is not folklore.

I actually did get annoyed when BBC decided to make achilles black. Also folklore but so old and so intrenched into european/greek history that it would matter.

Basically i go by: Is it a real person or place stay faithful. If it is fantasy do whatever the fuck you want.

To your "tokenism and marketing" yes of course. Everything EVERY show make does is that basically. The big boobed chick? What do you think? Scarlett johanson in skin tight black suits in the MCU? Chris Evans going shirtless. Everything about fanservice in anime. EVERYTHING is to attract more people to the show.
And they only do that if it results in a net positiv for them. They don't care if a group of, mostly white middleaged men, say they don't watch the show anymore... because they watch it anyway mostly while complaining about it in forums.

Every future show set in a fictional setting will have black people in it from now on. You better get used to it. Or just don't watch the show. Only way for them to not do it is if they would loose money because of it.

This is a moral against moral argument. Include people who mostly have been exlcuded in the past to get a wider audience or stay 100% true to the creators work. You will never be able to to the latter anyway in movies and tv shows.

I just decided for myself that i don't mind changes in the adaption. Call it pragmatism. Another skin color does not change anything about the story and i rather have fun watching a show than being angry all the time because someone has a darker complexion in fanasty show.

If it was a movie about say. JFK and they make him black. Or Shaka Zulu and make him white... that would be stupid as hell. The "Vikings:Valhalla" casting is weird for example. It is a show between history and fiction. But the black women who playes a character that (probably) ACTUALLY existed...yeah it just feels out of place.
But characters in a fantasy setting where black humans allready exist... so you have black elves and black dwarfes... why the hell not? It is not like the tv show goes of much anyway.
They only adjust the creation myths of a fictional race in a fictional universe.

Honestly my problem with the changing of skin colors in tv show is rather that everything seems to only look at black people. What about asians? Native americans... it is always black. Or how like everyone flips if there is a gay character but lesbians are fine.

[DarkAmbient]

Every future show set in a fictional setting will have black people in it from now on.

And of course there is nothing wrong with that if the show is based in a world where those people exist.

[Shadowferal]

The source material was/is popular for reasons. Changing that material means it has no more reason to be popular.

[Nyel]

These recently released pictures just make me cringe. Nothing screams Middle Earth or Lord of the Rings "resemblance" to me. And that black Dwarf princess or black Elf... just no. I'm all for diversity where it fits and makes sense, but this is pure political agenda setting and it reeks.

This is as bad as making Triss black although she's clearly described as a pale red haired woman. It's just bs.

[Frontenac]

I'm not buying into the "elven ambition" shtick. That's was Númenor's downfall. Elves revered the Valar and such ambition would seem distasteful. The closest to that sort of feeling is reflected in their skills and crafts. The best smiths...the best warriors, and the ego that came with it.

Númenor's downfall was more about their fear of death. Elves are not perfect. The Noldor did not choose to go to Middle Earth only for revenge against Morgoth and get the Silmarils back. They were already rebellious when he killed Finwë and stole the Jewels. The Noldor were angry at the Valar because they believed Morgoth's lies that the Valar brought them to Aman only to give all Middle Earth to Men. Finwë's murder, the theft of the Silmarils and the death of the Two Trees were only the trigger event that caused them to leave. Many Noldor, including Galadriel, followed Fëanor because they wanted to rule over kingdoms of their own, far from the autority of the Valar. And that's what she did. During the Second Age, she ruled over her own fiefdom in Lindon, then moved East to found Eregion, then she crossed the Misty Mountains where Celeborn and her were chosen as leader of the sylvan Elves of Lothlórien. It's really only in the Third Age that the Noldor became aloof, reclusive and weary of Middle Earth. When we read the Silmarillion, we see Elves that are very proud, driven and sometimes even petty, far from the quasi-angelic beings we see in Peter Jackson's movies.

And why did you post a picture (one of my favorite from the Silmarillion) of Ulmo and Tuor?

[Dhrizzle]

The source material was/is popular for reasons. Changing that material means it has no more reason to be popular.

I don't think LotR and the the rest of Tolkien's work was only popular because black people were excluded.

[Rennadrel]

I don't think LotR and the the rest of Tolkien's work was only popular because black people were excluded.

They aren't actually excluded since the people of Far Harad existed. The issue is more that their story isn't very interesting in the Second Age and in the Third Age they are enemies. But I think the story of the Harradrim's fall due to their subjugation by the Numenorians during the Second Age is a story they could have told that fits their checkboxes without attempting to change Tolkien's existing culture groups as he depicted them. But I get why they aren't doing that, they are trying very hard to get people with nostalgia, rather than just trying to do something unique within the existing universe which would be creatively more interesting.

[Shadowferal]

Many Noldor, including Galadriel, followed Fëanor because they wanted to rule over kingdoms of their own, far from the autority of the Valar.

No. You're making shit up.. Galadriel abandoned Feanor to follow Fingolfin after Feanor burned their only way back home, the Teleri ships they took by force.

I don't think LotR and the the rest of Tolkien's work was only popular because black people were excluded.

I never said that.

[Toppy]

No. You're making shit up.. Galadriel abandoned Feanor to follow Fingolfin after Feanor burned their only way back home, the Teleri ships they took by force. I never said that.

We've kinda hit the point that anyone disagreeing with the direction of the show is just autoamtically some level of racist.

[Tuor]

I'm not buying into the "elven ambition" shtick. That's was Númenor's downfall. Elves revered the Valar and such ambition would seem distasteful. The closest to that sort of feeling is reflected in their skills and crafts. The best smiths...the best warriors, and the ego that came with it.

The guy wielding the sword is actually a man, not an elf, his name his Tuor son of Huor... But yes, he is using an elvish forged armour and sword.

[Shadowferal]

The guy wielding the sword is actually a man, not an elf, his name his Tuor son of Huor... But yes, he is using an elvish forged armour and sword.

*nods
I just liked the pic

[Frontenac]

The source material was/is popular for reasons. Changing that material means it has no more reason to be popular.

I really doubt the skin colour of some characters is one of these reasons...

When I read The Lord of the Rings for the first time, I imagined Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth as spanish or arab like. Some people of South Gondor are described with tanned skins, and the name "Imrahil" sounded arab or mediterranean to me. I figured that Dol Amroth could be the Spain of Gondor. So Imrahil had a tanned skin and spoke with a spanish accent. And he remained that way in my other readings. Did that change anything to the story? Nothing at all

I mean, in Tolkien's mind, the Dwarves were meant to be Semitic and even Jewish: a dispossessed, nomadic people, wonderful craftsmen, industrious but greedy, bearded, living under prejudice, keeping their language to themselves... Tolkien played all the stereotypes and gave them a language, Khuzdul, influenced by Hebrew. And yet everyone is depicting them as Scots... Does it change anything to the story? Nothing at all.

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No. You're making shit up.. Galadriel abandoned Feanor to follow Fingolfin after Feanor burned their only way back home, the Teleri ships they took by force.

Okay, if you want to split hairs in four... Galadriel did follow Fingolfin who followed Fëanor. It remains that she agreed with the rebellion and went to Middle Earth because she wanted to rule over kingdoms of her own. She could have returned to Tirion with her repentant father.

[Shadowferal]

It remains that she agreed with the rebellion and went to Middle Earth because she wanted to rule over kingdoms of her own.

Again that's making shit up. She was already royalty and powerful.

[Frontenac]

Again that's making shit up. She was already royalty and powerful.

Listen, it's in the books. She was "royalty", but the Noldor were not lords in Aman. The Valar were. The Noldor rebelled against them. Galadriel rebelled against them too.

But Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will.

[Xath]

Shaft has always been a black man. Tied up with thatwhole mod scene in the early 70s that devolved into "blaxploitation."

I'm aware my point was for characters in general.

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lets try this again, as a basic rule as long as the character’s story isn’t tied to there race.

I couldn't care less about character Descriptions unless they tie into the story of the character.

Let's try this again. I do. Regardless of what the skin color is I do care whether it stays true to the characters as described just like I got annoyed at the ancient one getting white washed in dr. strange.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Let's try this again. I do. Regardless of what the skin color is I do care whether it stays true to the characters as described just like I got annoyed at the ancient one getting white washed in dr. strange.

Sure good for you, I don't hold the same stance.

back to shaft, I don't know anything about him but if his still color isn't a key part of his story I couldn't care less if they changed his race as the only thing that matters to me is the story of the characters and if you can stray from the description without changing the story its no problem.

[Rennadrel]

That's just this sub-forum in general, tbh. All the people whinging will still watch it, just so they can hate it harder lol Its pretty pathetic.

Advocating for a creators work to be disrespected is a pretty dumb hill to die on. That goes for all established characters whose creators aren't around to have a say in how their works are used.

[Syegfryed]

My problem is and always will be that its tokenism and marketting..

if they make an entire tribe, not much, because they just say its a re-image of said tribe

the way they are doing right now def is tokenism and marketing.