Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rogoth]

That's an awful lot of words just to say you're mad about dark-skinned people playing certain parts and also don't know much about the Legendarium.

Most egregious example is probably your description of Illuvatar as an old, bearded white man when to the best of my ability he has never taken physical form. This is especially funny as your false idea about his appearance undermines your point that the elves were made in his image as elves are not old, bearded men.

That and your assumption that elves have "genes" when their race is made mostly of magic and receive traits based on where they live, hence elves that visited or dwelt in Valinor are mightier than the moriquendi. In fact the one inheritable trait we know of - whether the half-elven would follow the fate of men or elves - was a matter of choice for the individuals concerned.

tell me where i said, please make it as big and bold as you possibly can where i said in any version of the legendarium that he is shown to be that, i said he is stereotypically DEPICTED AS being the old white haired and bearded man that is most often used as a DEPICTION of the Judaeo-Christian image of 'God', i'm fully fucking aware that his presence is never seen in any form by any creature in the Tolkein universe, i'm also fully aware of what elves in middle earth are like, i'm aware of the fact that such are their deep emotional connections that they can quite literally die of heartbreak, they can feel pain when they see something also in pain, the whole fucking point of the black speech was to cause elves physical and emotional pain whenever they heard it as a bastardisation of their language by Sauron, would you care to add anything further or have i made my point?

[Triceron]

all the races are 'magically created' into being be Eru, yes, but past that they would each evolve slightly based on their surroundings over time, that's also something that's a biological fact, unless it was stated outright as something that couldn't occur, the bio-organism that is a 'human being' is constantly changing and adapting to their surroundings, so small are the changes that they are imperceivably done, until enough time has passed and the magnitude of the change has taken hold and it is finally visible to the naked eye.

as an aside i think some of what i'm saying is being 'lost in translation', i'm applying real world genetics to this situation, i'm stating categorically that these instances of tokenism can't happen based on the lore we know of how and where these races came from, it doesn't work and no amount of magic is gonna change that fact, i'm also using real world logic in my arguement here because these show runners as quoted by their executive producer want the show to 'reflect what the world (modern day earth) really looks like', which makes these token characters even less possible than the impossible they already are.

I agree that there is a level of internal world consistency at play, and that certain races should definitely be of a certain look and appearance relative to where they live. Tolkien himself admits this in external sources, that 'Middle-Earth' is supposed to represent northwestern europe, while other humans of various skin colors and looks populate lands to the east and south.

But honestly speaking, when it comes to expanding fictional worlds beyond what the author intended, there are always exceptions to the rules, and the exceptions often drive entire storylines. Cuz sure, Elves and Dwarves could be at war with each other during the Second Age, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be exceptions to the rules. After all, deep-rooted conflicts haven't ever stopped romances from happening in stories. We're just talking about an untold West Side Story with Elves and Dwarves.


As for Black Elves existing alongside classic White-skinned Elves, I agree that it is non-canonical. But once you accept it as non-canon, that's really all that needs to be considered. There doesn't need to be any explanation beyond it simply being regarded as non-canon, because there is no canonical explanation to why it couldn't exist either. That explanation itself is also non-canon. Tolkien simply never elaborated on whether black elves could exist amidst the other Sindar. We're regarding exceptions to the rules, not the rules themselves.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

you don't just magically have a pure black child pop up from a pure white bloodline,

So Mabye this is my ignorance speaking as all I know about the history book is that Sauron lost a singing contest and some one used a flying boat to kill a huge dragon.

But don’t orcs come from all white elfs but then end up white green black ect? Like is there a actual explanation for on there skin tones or were they just magiced that way and if they were just magic and it’s never actually mentioned why there skin is as such couldn’t you just say the same for elfs or dwarfs and various didn’t magics that were also not expanded upon?

[Magnagarde]

How so? They were a predominately white society with a minority black population according to Tolkien's own work.

They didn't have a "minority black population"; there is no such thing as "minority black population" within the Numenorean society. Beor wasn't black in what is the physiological appearance of a black man in our real world, his sons weren't black and his people weren't black. You're confusing a group within a people from a fantasy setting and minority descriptions from real life. Just because their house were a minority(in terms of numbers) that lived in a specific part of Numenor, that doesn't mean they all of a sudden looked like the black people from Africa or the US.

They were Numenoreans, with some having a darker skin and some having darker hair. Other than that, they looked exactly like fair-skinned Numenoreans. A black actor wouldn't fit the shoes of Beor, his descendants or anyone else down the line of his people.

[Dhrizzle]

Yes maybe they should of gone with the angle that a race that lives in mountains and mines and rarely sees the sun...........should be black.

I love the fact that Tolkien describes a race who are literally constructed by an angel/god and people try to describe their traits in terms of evolutionary selective pressures, as if distorting his world of myths and magic to conform with modern scientific knowledge is somehow less insulting than saying it might be cool to have a diverse cast that reflects a diverse society.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Tolkien actually never mentioned Dwarven skin color, so they theoretically could all be black. Maybe they should have gone with that angle. The fact of the matter is that they could be rainbow hued, mixed, mottled, or whatever else according to the source material. And I highly doubt they will have just this one black dwarf; there will be background dwarves that are black.

Just to expound on this further, if you would be so kind, please state, in explicit detail, how Men of the same lineage have different skin tones? Numenoreans were described as being both fair and swarthy, same with the descendants of Beor - that should be physically impossible right? If anything, Jackson whitewashed the original trilogy so badly that it stands out more now.

Did he really never dwarf mention skin colour? All of this guff is just based on assumptions and nothing actually on paper?

[Nurasu]

Did he really never dwarf mention skin colour? All of this guff is just based on assumptions and nothing actually on paper?

He described their various beard colors, but never their skin color, no.

[Triceron]

I love the fact that Tolkien describes a race who are literally constructed by an angel/god and people try to describe their traits in terms of evolutionary selective pressures, as if distorting his world of myths and magic to conform with modern scientific knowledge is somehow less insulting than saying it might be cool to have a diverse cast that reflects a diverse society.

It's probably the same magic that allows Jesus to be depicted as a white man.

[AcidicSyn]

I agree that there is a level of internal world consistency at play, and that certain races should definitely be of a certain look and appearance relative to where they live. Tolkien himself admits this in external sources, that 'Middle-Earth' is supposed to represent northwestern europe, while other humans of various skin colors and looks populate lands to the east and south.

But honestly speaking, when it comes to expanding fictional worlds beyond what the author intended, there are always exceptions to the rules, and the exceptions often drive entire storylines. Cuz sure, Elves and Dwarves could be at war with each other during the Second Age, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be exceptions to the rules. After all, deep-rooted conflicts haven't ever stopped romances from happening in stories. We're just talking about an untold West Side Story with Elves and Dwarves.

Exception to this is, the group of dwarves referred to as Durins Folk (The Longbeards), who, based in Moria (Gundabad originally), had friendly relations with the elves, and did not war with them. (The freakin password to their door is in elvish.....)

In fact, during the second age the Dwarves of Moria were closer than ever with the elves....

The war between dwarves and elves was when the nogrod dwarves stole the silmaril, first age. There should be no mention of war between elves and dwarves in this series if its supposed to be second age.

[Nurasu]

They didn't have a "minority black population"; there is no such thing as "minority black population" within the Numenorean society. Beor wasn't black in what is the physiological appearance of a black man in our real world, his sons weren't black and his people weren't black. You're confusing a group within a people from a fantasy setting and minority descriptions from real life. Just because their house were a minority(in terms of numbers) that lived in a specific part of Numenor, that doesn't mean they all of a sudden looked like the black people from Africa or the US.

They were Numenoreans, with some having a darker skin and some having darker hair. Other than that, they looked exactly like fair-skinned Numenoreans. A black actor wouldn't fit the shoes of Beor, his descendants or anyone else down the line of his people.

It's interesting then that he uses the word swarthy to describe some of Beor's descendants (again, they ranged from fair to swarthy) and the Easterlings, who I think we can agree are based on Africans. I'm not saying all of House Beor was black, or that he was black, I'm saying Tolkien created black characters out of his lineage and they went on to settle Numenor with their relatives.

I'm also not even saying I'm explicitly correct in my interpretation, only that the door is left open for creative license here. It's not as set in stone as you make it seem with your first comment here.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He described their various beard colors, but never their skin color, no.

Damn thats so incredibly damning for so so many of the people upset about skin colour and trying to hide because lore accuracy.

[Dhrizzle]

tell me where i said, please make it as big and bold as you possibly can where i said in any version of the legendarium that he is shown to be that, i said he is stereotypically DEPICTED AS being the old white haired and bearded man that is most often used as a DEPICTION of the Judaeo-Christian image of 'God', i'm fully fucking aware that his presence is never seen in any form by any creature in the Tolkein universe, i'm also fully aware of what elves in middle earth are like, i'm aware of the fact that such are their deep emotional connections that they can quite literally die of heartbreak, they can feel pain when they see something also in pain, the whole fucking point of the black speech was to cause elves physical and emotional pain whenever they heard it as a bastardisation of their language by Sauron, would you care to add anything further or have i made my point?

Wait, so when you said that elves

were fashioned and moulded in the image of their creator, the one and only god of the Tolklein universe, Eru Illuvatar, who was always depicted as the stereotypical elderly white man with flowing white hair and beard,

you said that knowing full well that it was never in Tolkien's works and was something you basically made up? And we're supposed to trust anything you say on the matter when you just happily (well ANGRILY) admitted you're more than willing to just make stuff up?

Now if you do know this stuff about elves being magical and being affected by their environments, why are you still going on about "genes" and "biology?" It's genetically and biologically impossible for a creature to become mightier just by visiting a place with some trees and falling in love with an angel, and yet we have Thingol so maybe "genetic and biological impossibilities" aren't quite the amazing trump card you think they are.

[wombinator04]

I'm the most offended by the beardless Dwarf woman. HOW DARE THEY PUT A BEARD ON HER NOW!

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's probably the same magic that allows Jesus to be depicted as a white man.

and that Santa can’t be black.

[rogoth]

It's interesting then that he uses the word swarthy to describe some of Beor's descendants (again, they ranged from fair to swarthy) and the Easterlings, who I think we can agree are based on Africans. I'm not saying all of House Beor was black, or that he was black, I'm saying Tolkien created black characters out of his lineage and they went on to settle Numenor with their relatives.

I'm also not even saying I'm explicitly correct in my interpretation, only that the door is left open for creative license here. It's not as set in stone as you make it seem with your first comment here.

the 'easterlings' and peoples of Rhun are meant to reflect those living in turkey/arabia, literally nothing whatsoever to do with reflecting anything from Africa aside from maybe modern day morocco/Algeria etc.

[Triceron]

and that Santa can’t be black.

We all know he's Asian

[Nurasu]

the 'easterlings' and peoples of Rhun are meant to reflect those living in turkey/arabia, literally nothing whatsoever to do with reflecting anything from Africa aside from maybe modern day morocco/Algeria etc.

I guess I can see that; I always pictured them as more Northern African or maybe even Indian.

[Triceron]

I'm the most offended by the beardless Dwarf woman. HOW DARE THEY PUT A BEARD ON HER NOW!

Hmm, looking at a higher res image, it does look like she's got mutton chops.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lo...20220210174335

[rogoth]

Wait, so when you said that elves

you said that knowing full well that it was never in Tolkien's works and was something you basically made up? And we're supposed to trust anything you say on the matter when you just happily (well ANGRILY) admitted you're more than willing to just make stuff up?

Now if you do know this stuff about elves being magical and being affected by their environments, why are you still going on about "genes" and "biology?" It's genetically and biologically impossible for a creature to become mightier just by visiting a place with some trees and falling in love with an angel, and yet we have Thingol so maybe "genetic and biological impossibilities" aren't quite the amazing trump card you think they are.

do me a favour, take a second to read what i wrote in response to the topic of genetics, i said clearly and without reservation that i'm applying 'real world' genetics laws to these token characters that shouldn't exist, furthermore, i also said that i'm happy to use ANY AND ALL real world systems and logic to emphasise my point after the executive producer of this shitfest stated as part of the article on vanity fair, that the show should 'reflect what the world looks like', meaning that the original author who wrote these stories to ESCAPE from the real world and the 'Americanisation' of his home, the destruction of natural beauty replaced by grotesque buildings and machinery that in his eye had no place and didn't belong, have gone full circle and want to reflect the real world instead?, please explain to me how you justify that bullshit? because i really wanna know what level of mental gymnastics i must perform to comprehend such idiocy, as for your 'because magic duh' arguement, the one true god of this universe created beings who are known to be shape shifters, by extension that means he himself is also a shapeshifter, meaning that his image of himself could be what the elves look like while his actual appearance could have been the stereotypical judeao-christian image of god, and to dwarves his true image is that of Durin I, or to some other race his visage is that of something they also revere, see where i'm going with this?, please stop trying to take some imaginary high ground and looking down holier than thou, try again when you have a legitimate arguement until then, stop wasting mine and everyone else's time and energy.

[AcidicSyn]

Damn thats so incredibly damning for so so many of the people upset about skin colour and trying to hide because lore accuracy.

There are also two dwarven clans that originated in the east. Interpret that how you will.