Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[s_bushido]

Yeah when they talk about great scenes with women orcs somehow I doubt they are going to make them pure evil unfortunately even though they should be after being twisted.

--------------------------

It is not true actually of the Orcs [that they are a "creation of evil"] – who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate'
creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today.

They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would
be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be
going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence
– even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether
they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do
not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the
Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on
whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not
making them. That God would 'tolerate' that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the
calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today.

Seems like Tolkien put a lot more thought into this stuff than """fans""" of his work care to. Imagine that.

[Al Gorefiend]

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Seems like Tolkien put a lot more thought into this stuff than """fans""" of his work care to. Imagine that.

This quote is saying they are evil so..
Just not created to be evil as God does not create evil, they were twisted to be by Morgoth. The "pre-existing real beings" being Elves.

I'm not sure Tolkien thought ahead enough to think someday his IP would be hijacked by producers looking to bankroll on people's nostalgia.

Even doubly ironic, it's not Tolkien's actual vision this show will be capitalizing off of and drawing source material from - its Peter Jackson's. Because they aren't actually going to be writing screenplay for the Silmarillion, thats a book only the few diehard fans show interest in. They are spinning off of the LotR trilogy that made big hollywood money, looking to slice a piece for themselves.

But anyone who is a fan of LotR enough to have read the books is already aware Peter Jackson only loosely stuck to the source material, and the hobbit trilogy again attempted to capitalize on the success of the original trilogy to mixed reception.

I guess it's up to the individual to decide just how much deviation from someone's original story is enough to justify calling it fanfic. Hobbit was a made for Hollywood bastardizing of a slim book, this Amazon show I would consider entirely fanfic. I'm not saying it will be bad, but I am predicting it won't be good.

[Askyl]

thats how I feel about Star wars. havent even seen the original 3 movies but love watching the fan rage, way more entertaining than the series itself.

Yeah, i dont know anyone who loved and grew upp with Tolkien that isnt excited about this show. All the hate and drama is hilarious.

Some even think they are "protecting and defending" Tokiens honor. Like, daym..

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This quote is saying they are evil so..
Just not created to be evil as God does not create evil, they were twisted to be by Morgoth. The "pre-existing real beings" being Elves.

Looking at it this part of the quote it seems to imply that while they are evil they don't have to be and they have the capacity to become part of the rest of the world and be good even if it doesn't come naturally to them.

I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be
going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence
– even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.

But of course my reading could be totally off lacking greater context.

[bledgor]

Yeah, i dont know anyone who loved and grew upp with Tolkien that isnt excited about this show. All the hate and drama is hilarious.

Some even think they are "protecting and defending" Tokiens honor. Like, daym..

Really because every single Tolkein fan I know of think its a nostalgia cash grab from one of the worst mega corporations to exist.

[eschatological]

Or, and hear me out, there's LOTR fans out there, like me, who don't judge media before it actually comes out, recognizing that PR and promotional material is often bad and unfinished, or overexposed, or just outright misleading.

Like the amount of vitriol that gets spewed on these projects before they ever come out makes me wonder how y'all get through a normal day in the real world. And the idea that "megacorporations have corrupted media" as if Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy wasn't made by a megacorporation called New Line Cinema, or every film since Spielberg et al created blockbuster cinema in the late 70s wasn't the product of some massive production company, is comical.

[s_bushido]

This quote is saying they are evil so..

And he literally says in that same letter that even Sauron wasn't irredeemable:

Sauron was of course not 'evil' in origin. He was a 'spirit' corrupted by the Prime Dark Lord (the
Prime sub-creative Rebel) Morgoth. He was given an opportunity of repentance, when Morgoth was
overcome, but could not face the humiliation of recantation, and suing for pardon; and so his
temporary turn to good and 'benevolence' ended in a greater relapse, until he became the main
representative of Evil of later ages.

So... Please, tell me more about how it's impossible for orcs in Tolkien's universe to be portrayed in some sympathetic light.

And spare me the delusional rants about "fanfics." Unless the screenplay is being written by the original author, even the most faithful adaptations are just glorified fanfic.

[Adamas102]

I'm not sure Tolkien thought ahead enough to think someday his IP would be hijacked by producers looking to bankroll on people's nostalgia.

It's bizarre that people nowadays are so wrapped up in the idea of their childhood stories being some sort of sacred text that should not be tampered with. For thousands of years people have been retelling and re-imagining classic stories, from the mythologies of the ancient world, to the sagas of the middle ages, to the classic works of people like Shakespeare, Austen, Poe, Dickens, and so many others in between and since.

Tolkien built a mythology of his own, but took plenty of inspiration from those that came before him. I'm sure if he knew how his works have endured, evolved, and inspired other storytellers he'd be elated. The best stories and characters stand the test of time not because they are perfect ONLY in their original form, but rather because they present themes, teach lessons, and create worlds that can be adapted. Things like "elves are always white skinned" and "orcs are always evil" are hardly the defining pillars of Tolkien's work.

[Mace]

It's bizarre that people nowadays are so wrapped up in the idea of their childhood stories being some sort of sacred text that should not be tampered with. For thousands of years people have been retelling and re-imagining classic stories, from the mythologies of the ancient world, to the sagas of the middle ages, to the classic works of people like Shakespeare, Austen, Poe, Dickens, and so many others in between and since.

Tolkien built a mythology of his own, but took plenty of inspiration from those that came before him. I'm sure if he knew how his works have endured, evolved, and inspired other storytellers he'd be elated. The best stories and characters stand the test of time not because they are perfect ONLY in their original form, but rather because they present themes, teach lessons, and create worlds that can be adapted. Things like "elves are always white skinned" and "orcs are always evil" are hardly the defining pillars of Tolkien's work.

Except this story is written by a particular person and hasn't been randomly passed down, the original is there and it has it's own world.

If you come in and make sweeping changes to that world, then it is no longer that world any longer.

While I understand what you are saying, I understand what they are saying too.


This is a remake of all of Tolkein's works, it's not an adaptation like Peter Jackson's movies of the books were, it's something new, it's like the every x number of years retellings of stories like Titanic, or a new Spider man movie starts afresh - the difference is the titanic is an historical even that isn't owned by anyone, so you can do that.

You want to re cast everything and call it that - well, face the backlash of people who don't like you changing the purity of the original work.

and while PJs movies did have some backlash, it's nothing like on this level, because despite the changes it made it was an excellent and very well done reproduction and adaptation that stuck to the heart, spirit and as much as possible , the original work, and that clearly comes across.


HWat happens today is so called "modernising things" for this generation - it's a whole load of crap, it's fantasy for crying out loud, it's completley fine to be stuck in the 1940s culture or 1700s culture or whatever, the original is based in, even if it is your own made up culture. you don't have to bring your idea of 21st century life or what you think everyone believes people operate into your fantasy to make it work.. they're off course either deluding htemselves or lying because they have an agenda.

Virtue signalling thinking it's impressing minorities like me, but it isn't, i don't need to be represented in everything everywhere - you know how much K-drama stuff my family watch, none of us are from far east Asia.. quite the far opposite, I don't need to see myself represented by ethnicity or sexuality in their shows to enjoy them, appreciate their quality or relate to them either.

I am not solely defined by my skin colour or sexual orientation, it's' not the only thing that I can relate to - this whole representation thing they are pushing is b/s and it's just virtue signalling not because they care, but to for marketing purposes and it's failing.


Now when your show warrants it, have people of different orientations, have female leads, have different ethnicities including leads, don't just force them into everything because that's what you have to do now.

This whole woke movement has been completely twisted up, the end result should have been that now we don't always have to see a white male, 6' blond/light brown, blue eyed male as a a lead in every Hollywood production, but now we would see variation, because sometimes the lead could be black or female or whatever, and the story would make sense and fit...


This is not what is happening, they are taking stories and characters that are meant one way, and race, gender, everything swapping, not to make a compelling story, not because it's the right actor for the job, but because they want to make noise to promote their movie, and it usually has an awful script.. because you know what, the best programs and movies never have to do that rubbish and people will watch them - because they are good.

These people have just taken favourites to make more money out of them, with their bad writing, bad scripts and saying hey look, it's good because a female is leading and she's behaving like a man and this pleases this group ,and look we have black this and latino that, and gay this and body positivity that - because we are just ticking boxes to market our rubbish.

Well, this is how it's mostly gone so far, - Amazon did similar with Wheel of Time, except they made a perfectly good and "woke" already story, far worse, why you ask? because they wanted to virtue signal, and all the things already in the book were not enough, so they changed them and made them more extreme, thought it was good writing, and ruined one of the best stories in modern day fantasy, if not the best fantasy saga of our generation - because they thought they could do better with some need to virtue signal what was already there.


They are losing their minds. Who keeps throwing money at these people? Now Rings of power may actually play out very well, but given the track record of things companies have come out ahead of and virtue signalled, fixed promos, it's not looking hopeful.

If Rings of Power ends up being a good story, I'd at least be relieved, despite all the changes - when you compare it to Wheel of Time and Obi-Wan recently..sheesh, the greats really have fallen. Lets see if they can come u[ with something actually fresh and new

[Orby]

hmf...I wonder if they'll remember that orcs don't like light.

Isnt that Goblins who dont like light? there were orcs at Minas Tirith siege during the day, as well as many other places during the day time

[s_bushido]

Isnt that Goblins who dont like light? there were orcs at Minas Tirith siege during the day, as well as many other places during the day time

Orcs, too. I'm pretty sure they specifically showed a cloud of ash/smoke that was being sent out from Mordor to cover their advance. Lighting discrepancies were probably both a matter of convenience for filming, and to visually distinguish the battle at Minas Tirith from the one that took place at Helm's Deep in the previous movie.

But it's funny that people are assuming the showrunners don't know about this when this was literally in the article they linked:

"This is kind of before the next range of big battles. So there's a lot more smooth texture. There's still wrinkles, and lines, and shape, and form, but they're not so battle scarred, but they are dealing with some skin conditions because of their exposure to the sun. They're coming back out for the first time again. So it's all a bit new. That's why they're not as dark skinned, necessarily not as muscle-y and not as battle worn as you'd seen in previous productions.”

[Biomega]

I have no problem with orcs being redeemed, or portrayed as more than dumb evil henchman. I'm not afraid at all of a little change, even if it's not 100% in line with the legendarium.

What I'm ACTUALLY afraid of is all of that done poorly, with the most ham-fisted, on-the-nose writing imaginable.

[Syegfryed]

My only problem with th Orcs in the serie, as the images i saw is how they are so damn skinny, they were supossed ot be a bit more bulky than that with longer arms.

Their face is better than the original trilogy, but the best one still is Azog imo.

Isnt that Goblins who dont like light? there were orcs at Minas Tirith siege during the day, as well as many other places during the day time

for all we know, orcs and goblins are the same thing, just two different names for the same species, so, there is probably s sub-specie kind of scenario here. They didn't like light, but some of then, the big ones could endure better and the uruk-jai had no problems with it.

The "goblins" usually, were referred to the smaller orcs.

The big ones, like the ones in Mordor were taller as man and more bulky, were the "uruk"

Then there is the uruk-hai, that were hybrids with man.

[Nerovar]

The whole discussion about "good" Orcs is facetious.

Even if we assume that is "possible" because Tolkien didn't philosophically rule out for Orcs to be redeemed, it still doesn't answer the question why you would even focus on this most unlikely event that never actually happened as far as Tolkien's writings are concerned. Doesn't the act of filling out the most vague narrative spaces Tolkien deliberately didn't touch on already constitute a subversion of his work?

If large parts of your adaptation are focused on some very unlikely possibilities that only exist because of some offhand remark Tolkien made in a letter then you're already missing the mark. Because at that point you are evidently making a choice to not tell the stories Tolkien was interested in and instead focus on open questions Tolkien considered unimportant or uncomfortable at the time to fill them with your own dreck.

[s_bushido]

If large parts of your adaptation

Christ... So we've gone from some rando on the forums saying "I bet they're gonna do this" to "large parts of the adaptation!!!" in the span of a dozen posts. Get a fucking grip.

[Al Gorefiend]

Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.

[Syegfryed]

The whole discussion about "good" Orcs is facetious.

Even if we assume that is "possible" because Tolkien didn't philosophically rule out for Orcs to be redeemed, it still doesn't answer the question why you would even focus on this most unlikely event that never actually happened as far as Tolkien's writings are concerned. Doesn't the act of filling out the most vague narrative spaces Tolkien deliberately didn't touch on already constitute a subversion of his work?

If large parts of your adaptation are focused on some very unlikely possibilities that only exist because of some offhand remark Tolkien made in a letter then you're already missing the mark. Because at that point you are evidently making a choice to not tell the stories Tolkien was interested in and instead focus on open questions Tolkien considered unimportant or uncomfortable at the time.

I mean, this isn't all about what this series is? just taking some tidbits of one appendix of one of the tolkien works and making up a story on it?

Like, they are focusing on things that never actually happened, so, this isnt new

[Nerovar]

Christ... So we've gone from some rando on the forums saying "I bet they're gonna do this" to "large parts of the adaptation!!!" in the span of a dozen posts. Get a fucking grip.

We're all arguing about hypotheticals since the show isn't actually out. The fact that we're going to see the side of the Orcs with multiple "lovable" female Orc characters already seems to indicate that a decent amount of time will be used on their characterisation. But good to know that you cannot actually engage with the argument because you choose to get hung up on the word 'large'.

Durin's Bane was only a single Balrog. There are in fact multiple Balrog as written by Tolkien. There's no reason to imply there cannot be female Balrogs, or that the Balrogs can't be written in a sympathetic light. Tolkien never said they were explicitly evil, just giant fiery demonic entities that served Morgoth.

Yeah this is basically the level of apologetics we can see from the usual preemptively obedient honor guard of corporate media.

[Syegfryed]

This quote is saying they are evil so..
Just not created to be evil as God does not create evil, they were twisted to be by Morgoth. The "pre-existing real beings" being Elves.

He said the orcs were creatures corrupted by evil, so, naturally evil, but said they were not irredeemable, so, they can be saved.

Which is of course the base of Tolkien religion, everyone can be saved, no matter what they did, how foul they were, etc.

Also, Tolkien never finished the orcs creation, so there is no "real canon" of how they came to be, he had like, 5 theories written, the last one, and prob the one that make most sense(taking account how orcs work, the timeline, etc) is that they were in truth corrupted men, not elves. Of course the elven theory is more popular because his son chose to publish that one.

[Al Gorefiend]

He said the orcs were creatures corrupted by evil, so, naturally evil, but said they were not irredeemable, so, they can be saved.

Which is of course the base of Tolkien religion, everyone can be saved, no matter what they did, how foul they were, etc.

Also, Tolkien never finished the orcs creation, so there is no "real canon" of how they came to be, he had like, 5 theories written, the last one, and prob the one that make most sense(taking account how orcs work, the timeline, etc) is that they were in truth corrupted men, not elves. Of course the elven theory is more popular because his son chose to publish that one.

The weird part of all this Orc creationism and their origin is that we see in two towers fresh Orcs being birthed out of a mud pit or something. Since this show is based off Peter Jackson's work I wonder how that plays in to the story, or why they have a need for birthing persons