Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[ClassicPeon]

What do you mean by "woke fiasco"? Can you describe what a "woke fiasco" is in your own words.

Why are you changing the subject now? :P

A woke fiasco could be an example of a movie reboot with only females and female empowering jokes that completely falls flat because thats not actually funny and because its not actually empowering either.

GB 2016 as an example.

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No relevance to your post? It’s a direct question In response to this.


If your problem isn’t with the black characters and fighting woman what other “woke fiasco” is it looking to be?

I think you will find that your preemptive idea that people who are against wokeness are genuinely racists and bigots is the main issue here.

I have nothing against females protagonists nor do i have anything against people of different ethnicities.

The problem is when ethnicities, gender and sexual orientation becomes a main focus of a movie and a political device. Its forced and its just annoying for those of us who are completely neutral on these subjects.

A movie with a black women as a lead isnt a woke movie. A movie with a black women as a lead that focuses on the lead being black because of diversity is a woke movie.

There is a major difference.

Its like the whole "the force is female" thing. Like why? Why do you need to take something that people love and have loved for a long time and start making it for a specific group? Why does it have to suddenly be targettet towards a specific group just because that group happens to me in the minority of the fanbase? Have women not been allowed to watch star wars in the west? Do they pay more to enter the movies??

That is the issue-.

[beanman12345]

Why are you changing the subject now? :P

A woke fiasco could be an example of a movie reboot with only females and female empowering jokes that completely falls flat because thats not actually funny and because its not actually empowering either.

GB 2016 as an example.

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I think you will find that your preemptive idea that people who are against wokeness are genuinely racists and bigots is the main issue here.

I have nothing against females protagonists nor do i have anything against people of different ethnicities.

The problem is when ethnicities, gender and sexual orientation becomes a main focus of a movie and a political device. Its forced and its just annoying for those of us who are completely neutral on these subjects.

A movie with a black women as a lead isnt a woke movie. A movie with a black women as a lead that focuses on the lead being black because of diversity is a woke movie.

There is a major difference.

Its like the whole "the force is female" thing. Like why? Why do you need to take something that people love and have loved for a long time and start making it for a specific group? Why does it have to suddenly be targettet towards a specific group just because that group happens to me in the minority of the fanbase? Have women not been allowed to watch star wars in the west? Do they pay more to enter the movies??

That is the issue-.

So I stand by my original post, and now with second hand embarrassment. Have a day.

[ClassicPeon]

So I stand by my original post, and now with second hand embarrassment. Have a day.

You havent made a single argument - you have moved goalposts in every single one of your psots and i have proven you wrong a bunch of times where as after that you chose to simply redirect the discusssion. Its fine if you simply do not know enough about the subject to argue it - but i find it a bit tiresome how you keep throwing one liners and acting like you won something when in fact you havent even argued anything once.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I think you will find that your preemptive idea that people who are against wokeness are genuinely racists and bigots is the main issue here.

I have nothing against females protagonists nor do i have anything against people of different ethnicities.

The problem is when ethnicities, gender and sexual orientation becomes a main focus of a movie and a political device. Its forced and its just annoying for those of us who are completely neutral on these subjects.

A movie with a black women as a lead isnt a woke movie. A movie with a black women as a lead that focuses on the lead being black because of diversity is a woke movie.

There is a major difference.

. So just to be clear, your problem isn’t that there are black people or fighting woman, it’s that the less then 10min of footage and a couple of posters make you think them being black and woman will be the main focus of the show and a political device?

Its like the whole "the force is female" thing. Like why? Why do you need to take something that people love and have loved for a long time and start making it for a specific group? Why does it have to suddenly be targettet towards a specific group just because that group happens to me in the minority of the fanbase? Have women not been allowed to watch star wars in the west? Do they pay more to enter the movies??

That is the issue-.

also the force is female thing never had any thing to do with starwars targeting a specific group it never had any thing to do with starwars at all it was a Nike campaign not a starwars lucasfilm or even Disney one.

[ClassicPeon]

The light side of the Force is quite literally embodied as a woman.


This is just you not understanding the general issue, that's all. There is more of a focus on certain peoples specifically because only one has enjoyed overwhelming representation for a very long time.

Thats exactly what i said - yes - ?

"This is just you not understanding the general issue, that's all. There is more of a focus on certain peoples specifically because only one has enjoyed overwhelming representation for a very long time."

Most people who live in the western world are white. Most people who watch movies are white males. Most people who are educated actors are white.

Its a basic demographic thing.

[beanman12345]

You havent made a single argument - you have moved goalposts in every single one of your psots and i have proven you wrong a bunch of times where as after that you chose to simply redirect the discusssion. Its fine if you simply do not know enough about the subject to argue it - but i find it a bit tiresome how you keep throwing one liners and acting like you won something when in fact you havent even argued anything once.

Sure thing guy.

[ClassicPeon]

. So just to be clear, your problem isn’t that there are black people or fighting woman, it’s that the less then 10min of footage and a couple of posters make you think them being black and woman will be the main focus of the show and a political device?

also the force is female thing never had any thing to do with starwars targeting a specific group it never had any thing to do with starwars at all it was a Nike campaign not a starwars lucasfilm or even Disney one.

Again you somehow seem to be forgetting things and misquoting me. I havent said the new lotr WILL be woke. But there are certainly indicators of it. The "super fans" trailer thingy was certainly very woke - cant really argue around that.

The force is female is a kathleen kennedy quote so idk what you are on about

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Again you somehow seem to be forgetting things and misquoting me. I havent said the new lotr WILL be woke. But there are certainly indicators of it. The "super fans" trailer thingy was certainly very woke - cant really argue around that.

asking a question for clarification isn’t misquoting you.

So far you have said it’s loooking like it might be a woke fiasco, and when asked what makes you think that you gave the explanation in your last post, so I’m asking if what you laid out in your last post is what you think is happening with LoTR and what you were originally pointing towards in your first post.

The force is female is a kathleen kennedy quote so idk what you are on about

yes it’s a quote from her at a film festival where she was advertising Nikes Air Force one shoe line with alot of other woman in film, it never had any thing to do with starwars.

[Nurasu]

The original Star Trek was the wokest fucking show in history and is still going strong today with series and movies. Get the fuck over yourselves, or you'll end up looking as bad as the people complaining about interracial romance or black people on screen back then.

[ClassicPeon]

I was just going to say you're wrong, then you edited to add the rest and I see this is just a pointless discussion.

Let's not make this thread about yet another franchise people like to bitch and moan about for page after page...

OT: LotR! Woooo!

This discussion gatekeeping is getting kind of funny ngl. You guys poke a little and then you act like it wrote something so horrible that you just "cant even...".

Its so odd to me not being able to actually argue your case against someone you disagree with without malding completely out.

"You are wrong, i am right, but i dont wanna argue about it so just give up please"

Like what in the world is this lol. When did this get to be anything other then completely ridiculous lol

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asking a question for clarification isn’t misquoting you.

So far you have said it’s loooking like it might be a woke fiasco, and when asked what makes you think that you gave the explanation in your last post, so I’m asking if what you laid out in your last post is what you think is happening with LoTR and what you were originally pointing towards in your first post.

yes it’s a quote from her at a film festival where she was advertising Nikes Air Force one shoe line with alot of other woman in film, it never had any thing to do with starwars.

You presumed i had a problem - you wrote that yourself - which would be a misquote because you thought i said lotr WILL be woke.

Any kathleen kennedy quote about star wars has everything to do with star wars. Trying to deny that is just laughable.

And i answered your question - "But there are certainly indicators of it. The "super fans" trailer thingy was certainly very woke - cant really argue around that."

[ClassicPeon]

The original Star Trek was the wokest fucking show in history and is still going strong today with series and movies. Get the fuck over yourselves, or you'll end up looking as bad as the people complaining about interracial romance or black people on screen back then.

You mean star trek NG right? Thats actually a really good example of a show that is diverse without being woke. It never pandered to women or men. It actually celebrated the differences between the genders.

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Nah, dude, I just recognise this discussion for what it is; pointless. I could argue it all day, but, as I said, it's pointless.

Again, as soon as people started saying "woke" or "agenda," it was time to bail from a fruitless discussion. It's just a catchall for things you don't agree with, like seeing brown people represented on your screen when you consider them not enough of a demographic.

But you didnt - you willingly entered it. And also just to clarify - woke is a term coined by woke people. Its not derogatory or anything to that sort.

If the discussion seems fruitless on your half thats perfectly fine, you can quit it anytime you want. But when you exit it with a sentence like: "I was just going to say you're wrong, then you edited to add the rest and I see this is just a pointless discussion." you cant expect me to ignore it. A pointless discussion can be many things but when you preface it with "you are wrong" then it narrows it down significantly. Its no longer just an "i dont really want to discuss this anymore" its a "i am right, you are wrong, but you dont get it" and then exit - which is sort of rude since i've argued against anyone who wrote at me without being rude or derogatory.

[Nurasu]

You mean star trek NG right? Thats actually a really good example of a show that is diverse without being woke. It never pandered to women or men. It actually celebrated the differences between the genders.

You realize that's hindsight right? You realize it pandered to women by allowing them good roles, right? You realize it pandered to black people by allowing them on the screen, right? You realize what your arguments against 'wokeism' will look like in 50 years, right?

[ClassicPeon]

You realize that's hindsight right? You realize it pandered to women by allowing them good roles, right? You realize it pandered to black people by allowing them on the screen, right? You realize what your arguments against 'wokeism' will look like in 50 years, right?

You brought it up - not me - so talking about hindsight is sort of odd?

No - i dont think it pandered to them at all. I dont think any of it was unreasonable. It started in 87 so its not like it was breaking any grounds - but it certainly helped mainstream some things. But calling it woke is just not the right word to use in this context. It didnt specifically target people because of diversity. It didnt try to put itself on a pedestal of morality because of it.

Edit:

What NG did that was so great imo was that it discussed a lot of moral dilemmas without forcing a specific ideology on to people. It was actually insanely good as general education.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You presumed i had a problem - you wrote that yourself - which would be a misquote because you thought i said lotr WILL be woke.

I didn’t presume you had a problem, in your own post you said.

My only hope is that if LOTR turns out to be a the woke fiasco that its looking like it might,

All I’m doing is trying to figure out what woke fiasco you think it might be based off of what we have seen so far.

You say it’s not black people and fighting woman but the only other explanation you had given is about a focus on them being black and women and being used a political device and when I ask if that’s what you meant in your original post you say no.

Any kathleen kennedy quote about star wars has everything to do with star wars. Trying to deny that is just laughable.

it was never a quote about starwars, “The force is female” is a quote from Nike about there shoes it has no ties to starwars, KK was advertising Nike as they were sponsoring the film festival she was invited to speak at.

“The force” in this context is the Air Force 1 shoe lines nothing else.

And i answered your question - "But there are certainly indicators of it. The "super fans" trailer thingy was certainly very woke - cant really argue around that."

sure you can say the super fans trailer is all you meant when you said it was looking like it might be a woke fiasco.

[AcidicSyn]

Wait, they took away Dis' beard? I thought I saw a set of Chops in her promotional poster forever ago.

Not gonna stop me from watching it, Silmarillion does rather specifically cite all dwarves having some level of beard regardless of sex, but apparently the showfolks didn't have rights to Silmarillion when making this? (Them not securing the rights to that to make a second age story makes me worry more than anything else really).

I'd prefer that the female dwarves in this had facial hair, because Tolkien dwarves are my favorite. I'm ecstatic to get more dwarven stories, not just the Longbeards either, love to see the other clans too (Though I only see the Moria/Longbeard dwarves in trailers so far).

Is that going to stop me from watching? LOL no. Especially for Dis. She is named after the only named female Dwarf in recorded middle earth history, I am extremely interested to see what she does.

On the topic of elves. Some of the elves look a little lack lusterish? They're missing the "glow" they're described to have, but not every Elf had that so maybe these are just wood elves, my first impression was that they looked more like they grabbed elves from the set of The Witcher. (Not talking about Galadriel, for her, I had an issue with her at first but soon realized she just suffers from "I'm not Cate Blanchet" syndrome. So that's not fair, gotta give her a shot).

My preference is that they show that whole "magic of the elves" distinctness for those that should have it. I Can't really get that from a trailer though. Watching an ep or two should show if this is going to be satisfactory.

Finally. The time compression. I definitely hate this and do not think it was necessary. There is plenty of content they could have told, and even taken liberties with, without the need to compress events of the second age that took place thousands of years apart. I hate this, shrug, say it is what it is, deem it a shame, and move on.

I would have preferred they have seasons take place hundreds/thousands of years apart from each other with new cast members for the mortal races and different stories than pretending, for example, the harfoot migration to arnor and Galadriel crossing the far north (forget the name) happened at the same time when they were something like 400 years apart.

GRANTED- maybe the show IS going to do that, and simply jump around the timeline following the elven characters. Didn't seem that way to me though.

[ClassicPeon]

Ok so lets break this up a bit

I didn’t presume you had a problem, in your own post you said. All I’m doing is trying to figure out what woke fiasco you think it might be based off of what we have seen so far.

Yes you did:

. So just to be clear, your problem isn’t that there are black people or fighting woman

You say it’s not black people and fighting woman but the only other explanation you had given is about a focus on them being black and women and being used a political device and when I ask if that’s what you meant in your original post you say no.

I havent said no to that. That is literally the problem. The focus on the moral superirority and the political agenda. And i've stated that numerous times and i've given you the same quote twice now on how that might be a problem in the new lotr series.

it was never a quote about starwars, “The force is female” is a quote from Nike about there shoes it has no ties to starwars, KK was advertising Nike as they were sponsoring the film festival she was invited to speak at.
“The force” in this context is the Air Force 1 shoe lines nothing else.

This is not true. You can find the evidence here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthan...rce_is_female/

sure you can say the super fans trailer is all you meant when you said it was looking like it might be a woke fiasco.

Its not all i meant but its a bug part of it. Making elves black and so forth is also a weird choice if not for the sake of diversity.

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/sigh

I was going to say you're wrong about this bit:
"Thats exactly what i said - yes - ?"

Because, no, it isn't what you said.

Interesting. If i remember right i was talking about why they felt the need to make the force female. And then you presented me with a link to a site that desribed the daughter as the light side of the force being female.

Do you mind telling me exactly what i got wrong?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ok so lets break this up a bit



Yes you did:

there was no presumption you brought up how you thought it was looking like it might be a woke fiascos you then gave an example of what you meant, it’s all there in your own post I didn’t have to presume any thing.

I havent said no to that. That is literally the problem. The focus on the moral superirority and the political agenda. And i've stated that numerous times and i've given you the same quote twice now on how that might be a problem in the new lotr series.

I asked you to clarify that the example you gave is what you meant from the start and you said I was misquoting you and then pointed to super fans, that’s a no. Unless you want to change the answer to “yes that is what you meant” all along.

This is not true. You can find the evidence here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthan...rce_is_female/[

quote from your link.

Kathleen Kennedy and the students did not wear the shirts for the Nike campaign.

You can see the Nike logo on the girl on the rights arms. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/wp...mbed.jpg?w=928https://images.solecollector.com/com...e_1_hugykw.jpg

Its not all i meant but its a bug part of it. Making elves black and so forth is also a weird choice if not for the sake of diversity.

aaaaand we’re back to the black people.

[Adamas102]

/snip

Oh man, just keep teeing them up and making an even bigger fool of yourself, huh?

Don’t think you know what the word “pedantic” means since I was clearly on the money with what you meant (lady warrior bad, dark skin bad). What makes this easy is that you decided to double down on ALL of it.

Despite your massive insecurities, the universe Tolkien created has no issues with either of these things. Galadriel as a fighter is officially referenced (the details are completely open to interpretation since Tolkien only wanted to set up a foundation for others to build on) so we can just put that one to rest. Also, continually tossing around the term “gender politics” as if it means something other than alt right dogwhistling doesn’t help your cause.

As for casting, a dark skinned actor cast as an elf is still just an elf. Anyone who bitches about melanin in a fantasy world or that anything based on England needs to be white through and through is just a racist cunt. Tolkien certainly made no mention that adaptations must adhere to a strict white-only policy.

As for your list of franchises supposedly ruined by “wokeness” not a single one of them sticks. Wokeness (which is simply the recognition of prejudice) doesn’t ruin anything. Poorly written plots and shitty character arcs do, and those can be applied to any movie/show regardless of the cast or message.

- Captain Marvel - DEFINITELY didn’t ruin any franchises (neither the MCU as a whole nor the Marvels subsection). Including this one at the top pretty much already tells me that your opinion is irrelevant
- MIB International - guessing you forgot that the second one was dogshit, even though it banked on the Will Smith/Tommy Lee Jones chemistry from the first one
- Charlie’s Angels 2019 - actually better received than the sequel to the first movie. It’s just a campy premise that works less and less in today’s action/spy genre
- Ghostbusters 2016 - if you think replacing the cast with men while keeping the same rehashed plot and mostly ad libbed dialogue would have made it any better then you’re a fucking idiot. There’s nothing inherently wrong with doing an all woman version of a movie that was originally all men, and it will work when it has a good script
- Terminator DF - killed the franchise? Thank god. None of the movies since T2 have been good, and the worst part about DF was dredging up Arnold’s old, wrinkled corpse for an attempt at banking on the nostalgia of the original couple movies.
- Star Wars - oh so I guess you’re in the camp of “conveniently forgot the prequels were absolute shit because the sequels had more women and black people”. This franchise has more misses than hits, and the issues with the sequels have nothing to do with wokeness but rather no consistent plan across the trilogy. “Somehow Palpatine returned…” has nothing to do with wokeness. And yet, this franchise is going to continue chugging along and make boatloads of money
- Birds of Prey - not a bad movie and definitely didn’t kill any franchises as the characters have already appeared in other movies and sequels/spin-offs are still in development
- West Side Story 2021 - highly acclaimed movie that received excellent reviews from critics and audiences. It just didn’t do well theatrically due to the fact that musicals generally just don’t do well theatrically and also a Covid resurgence. If you think this movie killed any chance of WSS being performed again then, once more, you’re a fucking idiot

Bad writing, acting, directing, etc has killed plenty of series without the help of your woke boogie man. The franchises you referenced are either doing just fine or were already doing poorly before the most recent entries (which were ruined more by plot than anything to do with diversity).

[uuuhname]

I love this discourse in fantasy:

white people: totally normal
black people: POLITICAL!

male protag: totally normal
female protag: POLITICAL!

I'm starting to see a trend here

[Adamas102]

Making elves black and so forth is also a weird choice if not for the sake of diversity.

Why? Why can’t an elf just be an elf regardless of skin color? They didn’t evolve like people, they don’t exist in the real world, they have less in common physiologically with humans than Neanderthal does with modern humans. So, why can’t an actor with a darker complexion just be an elf, no different than one with a paler complexion?