Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Ihavewaffles]

Slim Shady, I mean Slim Sauron, handing out the rings, yo!



look
if you only had
one ring
one opportunity
to seize all the works of men, elves and dwarves
would you capture it
or just let it slip

[Adamas102]

I understand why black dwarves and elves in a Tolkien story bother some people. What we know of these stories places dark-skinned characters in specific places. These new characters are an incongruity in the stories we know, as we know them. Unless their skin color really matters in the story that is told then this serves no purpose other than to, as some would say, virtue signal. I'm willing to wait and see if there's some special story to be told by having a black elf. But if the only purpose in having a black elf is to just say "look, we cast a black person as an elf in this wholly-too-white story!" then those who are turned off by this will be justified in their dislike..

Or, you know, an elf could just be an elf.

Unless you want to argue that Tolkien was indeed a racist and it was important to him that the heroic races and characters were white skinned, then skin color isn’t really a story relevant, distinguishing feature for the races of Middle Earth.

A dark skinned elf is just an elf. A dark skinned dwarf is just a dwarf. A dark skinned hobbit is just a hobbit. And none of them can be confused with Haradrim because even Haradrim are defined by more than just their skin color.

[Veggie50]

People deluding themselves that “everyone thinks this will be a shitshow”, just because they move in their own echo chambers ^^

A very small percentage of jacksons films fans are lore purists. On top of that not all lore purists find the changes made to be so grievous.

Just a reminder that during PJ’s production there were message boards filled with the same vitriolic “this inexperienced film maker is raping the source material” stuff. And through the lense of a lore purist, he did… Christopher Tolkien dislikes the movies because they focus more on action than morality.

Sure, it COULD be bad… From what I’ve seen, there’s a whole lot of good though.

[Krawu]

I actually love the new costumes on the promo shots. But than again, I also love GoT and "the current run of terrible marvel shows and movies".

Honestly, how can you people be so damn negative about this show? It's looking great so far, and it makes no sense to cry if you haven't even seen the first episode yet.

If I already hate everything in the promo shots and trailers there's little sense in giving it the benefit if the doubt, is there? I mean those are supposed to showcase the best and most epic bits the show has to offer to entice people to view it. If they fail so spectacularly to raise anything but aggressive disinterest at best and loathing at worst from me I'll gladly go read a book instead. I'm not that starved for entertainment and I'm pretty sure my head can conjure up a version of Middle Earth that I like far better than this overfunded Amazon fan fiction project.

I wouldn't say my time is particularly valuable but it's still far too precious for this. Same as I simply stopped watching GoT after season 3 because it had become too terrible to bear.

[Nerovar]

His form as the Lord of Gifts was supposed to be fair to elven eyes, so that's not out of the realm of possibility.

"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance."

I don't know dawg but this ain't it. I also don't see how this qualifies as "fair to elven eyes"... then again I wouldn't describe the elves in this series as fair either.

[Rennadrel]

I actually love the new costumes on the promo shots. But than again, I also love GoT and "the current run of terrible marvel shows and movies".

Honestly, how can you people be so damn negative about this show? It's looking great so far, and it makes no sense to cry if you haven't even seen the first episode yet.

The costumes are so god awful looking, are you crazy? Like, you can tell that it's all fabric and not actually an attempt at making armour with a lot of the pieces. A show with a 30+ million per episode budget having such terrible costume work is unacceptable. Peter Jackson put more effort into the look of the characters and making his films look like they are real and his budget was under 100 million per film for LOTR. How the hell does a series with two to three times the budget over 8 or 12 episodes manage to come out looking so terrible in both the costume and visual presentation aspect? The CGI alone is terrible looking, then compound the cosplay-grade costumes on top of it and it's just...yikes.

[InfiniteCharger]

That’s just idiotic…

No one with any sense would say that the Peter Jackson LotR movies were broken because events, characters, timelines, and dialogue didn’t match the source material 100%. They are very clearly adaptations of Tolkien’s works that translated all those aforementioned qualities to a different medium.

Peter Jackson has stated numerous times that his intent was to stick as close as possible to Tolkien. To even compare the minor changes made by Jackson, to what is being done by Amazon is being disingenuous. Yes Peter Jackson did change some things for LOTR but overall he was faithful to the story of the books.

The show is more or less the same. Though they don’t have a narrative to adapt, it’s still very clearly Tolkien’s events, characters, and timeline translated to a different medium.

Every single book-to-screen adaptation has changes and inconsistencies compared to the source material. Every. Single. One.

There is also this prevailing notion that Tolkien’s work is perfect and as a result adaptations SHOULD strictly adhere to his word with no deviation. Hate to break it to you, but Tolkien’s writing wasn’t perfect (should be obvious given that he was actively updating, retconning, and editing his works up until his death). On top of that, he wasn’t writing screenplays so his work by design MUST be changed in order to mold a cohesive narrative that fits within a multi-episode/multi-season format. That’s just how it works when adapting a work from one medium to another.

Stop calling it Tolkien is the point. People have created hundreds of works inspired by Tolkien over the last 40 years. There is no need to call it "what Tolkien would have wrote" because it is not what Tolkien would have wrote. It is not a literal continuation or expansion of his intent for the lore and history of middle earth. Other franchises have been very open about the fact that they are adapting an existing work and that they are deviating from that source in various ways. I am just pointing out the fact that this is not Tolkien and shouldn't be called "what Tolkien would have wanted". People are upset because Amazon is trying to rebrand Tolkiens world as "their world" as if somehow what they are doing is in line with Tolkien wanted when it is not. Thats the point being made. You could make a perfectly fine high fantasy story inspired by Tolkien without trying to argue that this is a literal continuation and adaptation of Tolkien because it is not. Tolkien is a meta narrative for high fantasy overall because his work inspired much of what we call high fantasy today. And some see him as a holy grail within fiction and fantasy because of that and want to try and gain the prestige of Tolkien without doing the work to earn it by being true to Tolkien's intent. And it is that lazy disrespect that I am calling out, not the idea that people cannot or should not be making changes when doing adaptations.

[s_bushido]

Going to be real funny if it turns out Sauron isn't even in this season, and the person in white is just some cultist/lieutenant.

Hell, I'm not entirely convinced that isn't a woman:

[DarkAmbient]

"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance."

I don't know dawg but this ain't it. I also don't see how this qualifies as "fair to elven eyes"... then again I wouldn't describe the elves in this series as fair either.

I mean, how can I put this... authenticity doesn't appear to have been a primary concern when it comes to casting the show. But we don't even know if this guy is Annatar yet.

[VMSmith]

"A black batman doesn't make sense because a black man with power, money, and social status isn't believeable"

Yes. Given the story of Batman, this is true. Why are you pretending it's not?

You can't on one hand claim "race doesn't matter, anyone could have been any race and it makes sense" and at the same time claim we need things like Black Lives Matter because some races have been historically disadvantaged. Race matters, always has and likely will for a good long time yet.

Would Magneto make sense if played by a black man? Characters have history and a story and sometimes those things are seen through the lens of race. I know we all know this because we state so when we talk about movies made by black writers and directors telling stories of black experiences, like Hidden Figures. But, for some reason, some of you want to throw this concept out when it comes to white characters and historical figures and pretend that their whiteness doesn't inform their histories and stories, like with the black Anne Boleyn.

Again, it's all nuanced. And you are just as in error as the people that screech about minorities existing at all in any media, by your refusal to recognize that whiteness can matter just as much as blackness or any other racial/gender characteristic. And that's why you and they both view each other as racist, neither of you seeks equality, only different versions of supremacy.

[Lady Atia]

Yes. Given the story of Batman, this is true. Why are you pretending it's not?

You can't on one hand claim "race doesn't matter, anyone could have been any race and it makes sense" and at the same time claim we need things like Black Lives Matter because some races have been historically disadvantaged. Race matters, always has and likely will for a good long time yet.

Would Magneto make sense if played by a black man? Characters have history and a story and sometimes those things are seen through the lens of race. I know we all know this because we state so when we talk about movies made by black writers and directors telling stories of black experiences, like Hidden Figures. But, for some reason, some of you want to throw this concept out when it comes to white characters and historical figures and pretend that their whiteness doesn't inform their histories and stories, like with the black Anne Boleyn.

Again, it's all nuanced. And you are just as in error as the people that screech about minorities existing at all in any media, by your refusal to recognize that whiteness can matter just as much as blackness or any other racial/gender characteristic. And that's why you and they both view each other as racist, neither of you seeks equality, only different versions of supremacy.

To be fair, a black Magneto could work in theory, but it would be a shame to change one of the few prominent jewish characters (especially one connected to the holocaust) to something else - and honestly, I wouldn't call Magneto a "white guy". Prof X on the other side could totally work as a black person.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Yes. Given the story of Batman, this is true. Why are you pretending it's not?

Specifically, what about Batman wouldn't make sense if he were black? Keep in mind this is, as I have mentioned, an Earth where beings from other planets are celebrated heroes. An Earth where Gods have been definitively proven to exist.

Would Magneto make sense if played by a black man?

Considering the intentional parallels between Mutants and the Civil Rights Movement... yes it would. Magneto's origin as a holocaust survivor was added well after his creation.

[s_bushido]

You can't on one hand claim "race doesn't matter, anyone could have been any race and it makes sense" and at the same time claim we need things like Black Lives Matter because some races have been historically disadvantaged. Race matters, always has and likely will for a good long time yet.

Gotham isn't a real city. It's pretty easy to have a fictional black family that happened to have accrued generational wealth in a fictional city. Hell, instead of being gang-related, the murder/assassination of the Waynes could have been racially motivated instead...since writers like retelling that story over and over again.

Would Magneto make sense if played by a black man?

If they made him a survivor of something like the Rwandan genocide, why not. Humans aren't exactly short on horrific events to inspire characters like that...

[eschatological]

Gotham isn't a real city. It's pretty easy to have a fictional black family that happened to have accrued generational wealth in a fictional city. Hell, instead of being gang-related, the murder/assassination of the Waynes could have been racially motivated instead...since writers like retelling that story over and over again.



If they made him a survivor of something like the Rwandan genocide, why not. Humans aren't exactly short on horrific events to inspire characters like that...

Weirdly enough, there are black billionaires IN REAL LIFE despite the still-real need for movements like BLM to exist.

[Orby]

Going to be real funny if it turns out Sauron isn't even in this season, and the person in white is just some cultist/lieutenant.

I have been hearing that it isnt Sauron. But if it is, then oof. Not sure Sauron the brooding emo kid was on my bingo card list of things to see in this show, but there we go :P

[Nerovar]

I mean, how can I put this... authenticity doesn't appear to have been a primary concern when it comes to casting the show. But we don't even know if this guy is Annatar yet.

I'm not even sure whether that actually is a guy.

[s_bushido]

It's not. People have been posting that her name is Bridie Sisson.

[Dhrizzle]

"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance."

I don't know dawg but this ain't it. I also don't see how this qualifies as "fair to elven eyes"... then again I wouldn't describe the elves in this series as fair either.

Sauron had many names and wore many faces. He could be Annatar, the odd looking blonde lady/cultist, the doom lord commanding orcs, the old man talking about Sauron, the weird dust sword and just a general presence of darkness.

[Frontenac]

The only thing I cannot stand are the buzzcuts on some of the male actors. It doesn't even make sense for the time period and is just a careless decision.

What makes you so knowledgeable about what haircuts were trendy among Middle Earth Elven society during the Second Age (which lasted about 3,400 years)?

I'm not too fond of them myself, but you cannot say they are inconsistent with a very long time period of a fictional world we know barely anything about.

[Khaza-R]

What makes you so knowledgeable about what haircuts were trendy among Middle Earth Elven society during the Second Age (which lasted about 3,400 years)?

I'm not too fond of them myself, but you cannot say they are inconsistent with a very long time period of a fictional world we know barely anything about.

Because such precise cuts would be almost impossible to achieve with a scissor and guard alone. Not to mention it would be painstaking at hell and impractical.

No need to be contrarian about it. Its just a really stupid design decision.