1. #1941
    Legendary! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    i thought sauron would look something like this, sneaky guy, not emo goth drugged face eminem..


  2. #1942
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    All of it?
    The idiot I was responding to said:
    they are going to introduce changes to make the show more reflective of our modern world (as opposed to, you know, Tolkien's world) but now we're moving into territory that doesn't even reflect our modern world
    No one in Tolkien's world (mid 20th century England) lived to be centuries old. Morons are perfectly happy accepting myriad fantastical elements in stories like this...from talking trees, to immortal races, to literal magic...but when it comes to women in the military? That's too fictional to even imagine!

  3. #1943
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    No one in Tolkien's world (mid 20th century England) lived to be centuries old. Morons are perfectly happy accepting myriad fantastical elements in stories like this...from talking trees, to immortal races, to literal magic...but when it comes to women in the military? That's too fictional to even imagine!
    You do realize that "Tolkien's world" was referring to the world Tolkien created -- the world this TV show is supposedly set in?
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  4. #1944
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    You do realize that "Tolkien's world" was referring to the world Tolkien created -- the world this TV show is supposedly set in?
    No. I did not realize that. And since I assume you're pretending to quote the showrunners with this "our modern world" shit, complaining about me taking you out of context to intentionally make you look bad probably isn't a good idea, given that everyone who is riding along with you on that bandwagon does the exact same thing to them at every opportunity.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-07-25 at 06:26 PM.

  5. #1945
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    No. I did not realize that. And since I assume you're pretending to quote the showrunners with this "our modern world" shit, complaining about me taking you out of context to intentionally make you look bad probably isn't a good idea, given that everyone who is riding along with you on that bandwagon does the exact same thing to them at every opportunity.
    I'm not complaining about you "taking me out of context". I'm sneering at you for going down the usual dialogue tree in the most grandstanding way while missing the (pretty obvious) point.

    Oh, and just for the sake of clarity this is the quote I alluded to earlier "It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world [obviously meaning the modern, western world] actually looks like".
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2022-07-25 at 06:48 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  6. #1946
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I'm sneering at you for going down the usual dialogue tree in the most grandstanding way while missing the (pretty obvious) point.
    Ah, is that what you were doing? Probably best if next time you don't start off the dialogue tree with an unsolicited post about how there are too many vaginas in the Numenorean army for your liking, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Oh, and just for the sake of clarity this is the quote I paraphrased earlier "It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world [obviously meaning the modern, western world] actually looks like".
    “It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like,” says Lindsey Weber, executive producer of the series. “Tolkien is for everyone. His stories are about his fictional races doing their best work when they leave the isolation of their own cultures and come together.”
    But I guess you disagree with the part you left off. Tolkien's work isn't for everyone, nor is it about people putting aside their differences and coming together to defeat an evil that would see them all subjugated or destroyed.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-07-25 at 07:10 PM.

  7. #1947
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Ah, is that what you were doing? Probably best if next time you don't start off the dialogue tree with an unsolicited post about how there are too many vaginas in the Numenorean army for your liking, then.
    My post was about how they prioritize their modern day political goals over the facts of the world Tolkien has created. Care to point out where I'm wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    But I guess you disagree with the part you left off. Tolkien's work isn't for everyone, nor is it about people putting aside their differences and coming together to defeat an evil that would see them all subjugated or destroyed.
    Was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy not "for everyone"? Do you think women cannot watch those movies because there are no female Gondorian soldiers or Rohirrim (apart from Éowyn) fighting on the Pelennor fields? Do you even realize how absurd this line of argumentation sounds?
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  8. #1948
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy not "for everyone"? Do you think women cannot watch those movies because there are no female Gondorian soldiers or Rohirrim (apart from Éowyn) fighting on the Pelennor fields? Do you even realize how absurd this line of argumentation sounds?
    Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

    Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.

  9. #1949
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

    Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.
    I mean not great to use personal experience as my mom who is in her 60s enjoyed them with me (though she didn't want to see the return of the king the 3rd or 4th time I went to be fair). I also know quite a few women in there 30s that enjoyed them too so, to each there own experiences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  10. #1950
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

    Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.
    That is an anecdote not really backed by the actual numbers of people who watched the movies in the cinema back then.
    Females “have definitely been the growth business of the movie,” says Russell Schwartz, New Line’s president of domestic marketing. “The audience for each movie has grown, and a large portion of that has been female, both younger and older.”

    Schwartz says the percentage of the audience that is female has gone from 42% for “Fellowship of the Ring” to 50% for “King.” Fantasy movies have traditionally had a male-dominated audience.[...]

    “We’ve found on “Return of the King” that females are bigger repeaters than males,” Schwartz says. Exit polls conducted by New Line three weeks after “Kings’ ” release showed that 56% of women under 25 had seen the movie at least once and 6% had seen it at least four times. By comparison, 54% of males under 25 had seen the it once and 4% had seen it four times or more.
    (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...ay1-story.html)

    Seems pretty balanced to me.

    Also to offer an anecdote of my own: I'm in my 20s and almost all of the die-hard LotR fans I know are women.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  11. #1951
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy not "for everyone"? Do you think women cannot watch those movies because there are no female Gondorian soldiers or Rohirrim (apart from Éowyn) fighting on the Pelennor fields?
    Or there’s nothing wrong with either approach.

    PJ did make some small steps towards making the movies a bit less of a sausage fest. That’s fine, he was working with a pretty set narrative. Increasing the female presence in the show (which is based more on a list of events and loose sets of notes) is fine as well.

    Anyone who thinks this ruins Tolkien’s world needs to get over themselves. The heroes of Tolkien’s world aren’t defined by their gender or skin color. They’re defined by their actions and how they stand up against evil.

  12. #1952
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

    Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.
    My wife was absolutely distraught at the death of Gandalf, having not read the books, and practically dragged me to the next two films ... even though I was the one who listed The Hobbit as the first book I ever read (on the recommendation of my mother, as well).

    And some of my favorite movies are Me Before You and The Holiday, among many other romantic comedies and tragedies and such.

    What I find funny is that while trying to accuse people of sexist ideology you personally engage in sexist accusations. Claiming that women don't like swords and sorcery and men don't like romance is your inner sexist showing through. Much like the accusations of "racist!" whenever someone states that they don't like diversity casting for the sake of diversity casting ... it's people projecting their inner racism onto others.

  13. #1953
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Or there’s nothing wrong with either approach.

    PJ did make some small steps towards making the movies a bit less of a sausage fest. That’s fine, he was working with a pretty set narrative. Increasing the female presence in the show (which is based more on a list of events and loose sets of notes) is fine as well.

    Anyone who thinks this ruins Tolkien’s world needs to get over themselves. The heroes of Tolkien’s world aren’t defined by their gender or skin color. They’re defined by their actions and how they stand up against evil.
    I think we have plenty of stories about good guys (and girls) standing up against evil that also conform to our modern day notions of what societies should look like. So why does this need to be imposed on every story with brute force? Furthermore, there are ways to create more female presence without overwriting the rules of a setting. It would simply take more effort.

    Tolkien's universe is fundamentally medieval. It draws on medieval poetry, uses medieval styles of writing and is largely medieval in the way society is organized. Tolkien goes to great lengths to create an "air" of historicity for his world. This naturally includes gender relations which are explicitly stated throughout his works. If you take that aspect away, you are changing these stories whether you want to admit it or not. For example, Éowyn's story wouldn't even make sense if women were equal to men because (contrary to your claim) this character is literally defined by her gender and her personal struggle to conform with the social role it entails.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  14. #1954
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I think we have plenty of stories about good guys (and girls) standing up against evil that also conform to our modern day notions of what societies should look like. So why does this need to be imposed on every story with brute force? Furthermore, there are ways to create more female presence without overwriting the rules of a setting. It would simply take more effort.

    Tolkien's universe is fundamentally medieval. It draws on medieval poetry, uses medieval styles of writing and is largely medieval in the way society is organized. Tolkien goes to great lengths to create an "air" of historicity for his world. This naturally includes gender relations which are explicitly stated throughout his works. If you take that aspect away, you are changing these stories whether you want to admit it or not. For example, Éowyn's story wouldn't even make sense if women were equal to men because (contrary to your claim) this character is literally defined by her gender and her personal struggle to conform with the social role it entails.
    There's a great essay on this by Michael Martinez.

    Tolkien’s Middle-earth Doesn’t Look Like Medieval Europe

    The short answer is "no" - Middle-earth is not medieval. (Though some artists may erroneously think it is.)
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  15. #1955
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    There's a great essay on this by Michael Martinez.

    Tolkien’s Middle-earth Doesn’t Look Like Medieval Europe

    The short answer is "no" - Middle-earth is not medieval. (Though some artists may erroneously think it is.)
    Of course, I don't have the time to address everything said in this blogposts but a lot of the arguments in this seem stretched.

    A character named Pippin putting his hands in the lap of his liege swearing fealty is not really fealty, knights are not really knights... I mean, come on.

    It's also at best tangential to the argument. Either way we are talking about societies that are beyond any doubt pre-modern. Whether they sway more towards late antiquity or the early middle ages is immaterial to the discussion.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2022-07-25 at 11:23 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  16. #1956
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    My wife was absolutely distraught at the death of Gandalf, having not read the books, and practically dragged me to the next two films ... even though I was the one who listed The Hobbit as the first book I ever read (on the recommendation of my mother, as well).

    And some of my favorite movies are Me Before You and The Holiday, among many other romantic comedies and tragedies and such.

    What I find funny is that while trying to accuse people of sexist ideology you personally engage in sexist accusations. Claiming that women don't like swords and sorcery and men don't like romance is your inner sexist showing through. Much like the accusations of "racist!" whenever someone states that they don't like diversity casting for the sake of diversity casting ... it's people projecting their inner racism onto others.
    LOL, I love romantic comedies.

    But the business of Hollywood doesn't lie - science fiction and fantasy have long had male-dominated audiences, and romantic comedies have had female-dominated ones. Whether it's Sex and the City or Lord of the Rings, the past 20 years has been Hollywood trying to figure out how to expand their audiences to people not traditionally seeing their movies. Apparently, according to another poster, LOTR had a big part in expanding that audience.

    That you (or I) like a romantic comedy or that your wife saw LOTR doesn't make these movies "universally accessible." Movies have a push and pull with culture - trying to affect culture, but also often a reflection of current culture. Introducing women and people of color as elves in Tolkein's world is part of that effort, and, imo, doesn't affect the themes or story of Lord of the Rings, which, as someone else pointed out, is mostly about the character of people, and their actions to stand against evil.

    Hell, there's a whole industry of YouTube reactors which is just basically "women watch movies their terminally online male fans insist they should have seen 20 years ago."

  17. #1957
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I think we have plenty of stories about good guys (and girls) standing up against evil that also conform to our modern day notions of what societies should look like. So why does this need to be imposed on every story with brute force? Furthermore, there are ways to create more female presence without overwriting the rules of a setting. It would simply take more effort.

    Tolkien's universe is fundamentally medieval. It draws on medieval poetry, uses medieval styles of writing and is largely medieval in the way society is organized. Tolkien goes to great lengths to create an "air" of historicity for his world. This naturally includes gender relations which are explicitly stated throughout his works. If you take that aspect away, you are changing these stories whether you want to admit it or not. For example, Éowyn's story wouldn't even make sense if women were equal to men because (contrary to your claim) this character is literally defined by her gender and her personal struggle to conform with the social role it entails.
    With brute force? Now that’s a little dramatic… No one is forcing you to watch these movies/shows. The books don’t all get hurled into a bonfire after they’re adapted to the screen. They’ll still be there for the purists.

    There’s no need to segregate everything as “ok, this is heroic fantasy for men and over there is the stuff for women”. You claim all the die-hard fans you know are women who enjoy the stories despite the overwhelmingly male characters, so why does it suddenly become an issue for you if an adaptation tries to mix up the focus?

    Tolkien’s world isn’t medieval. It draws a lot more from romanticized fairy tales than any sort of historical basis. Parts of the world have elements of feudalistic society, but not all of it. You’re not wrong that Eowyn’s story is diminished by having more fighting women in the Rohirrim, but that’s only a small segment of the social dynamics exhibited throughout the world. Her story can still exist while finding other places to explore more diverse dynamics.

  18. #1958
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    My post was about how they prioritize their modern day political goals over the facts of the world Tolkien has created. Care to point out where I'm wrong?


    Was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy not "for everyone"? Do you think women cannot watch those movies because there are no female Gondorian soldiers or Rohirrim (apart from Éowyn) fighting on the Pelennor fields? Do you even realize how absurd this line of argumentation sounds?
    I don’t think Peter Jackson’s movies are a great example given that they also changed/added things to try and reach a wider audience with things like Gimli being made comedy relief, changing designs like the Balrog, making battles more epic by adding factions which weren’t present in the books, ect. Then of course the hobbit movies went above and beyond with the changes.

    Obviously they aren’t targeting the same audiences as ROP but they did go out of there way to make it more targeted at kids/teens even if it meant deviating from Tolkien’s actual word.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #1959
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    With brute force? Now that’s a little dramatic… No one is forcing you to watch these movies/shows. The books don’t all get hurled into a bonfire after they’re adapted to the screen. They’ll still be there for the purists.
    Brute force doesn't mean that I'm forced to watch it. It refers to the clumsy manner in which they try to apply their modern day political desires to stories that weren't written with these things in mind. You can't force a square peg through a round hole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    There’s no need to segregate everything as “ok, this is heroic fantasy for men and over there is the stuff for women”. You claim all the die-hard fans you know are women who enjoy the stories despite the overwhelmingly male characters, so why does it suddenly become an issue for you if an adaptation tries to mix up the focus?
    Well, it's not just my claim. I already linked and quoted the article saying that roughly 50% of the audience from the PJ movies was female (with more women watching the last movie repeatedly) so it being a "sausagefest" didn't appear to be an issue back in the day. Furthermore, if women were perfectly fine with these movies (despite the fact that fantasy flicks were much more niche back in the day and associated with male dominated nerd culture) doesn't the argument that you have to change the facts of the universe Tolkien has created in order to appeal to women kinda fall flat? And even if they didn't watch it, aren't there ways to give more attention to female perspectives without changing the stories and the social roles women inhabit in this secondary world?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Tolkien’s world isn’t medieval. It draws a lot more from romanticized fairy tales than any sort of historical basis. Parts of the world have elements of feudalistic society, but not all of it. You’re not wrong that Eowyn’s story is diminished by having more fighting women in the Rohirrim, but that’s only a small segment of the social dynamics exhibited throughout the world. Her story can still exist while finding other places to explore more diverse dynamics.
    It can exist despite these changes but it necessarily becomes absurd. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2022-07-26 at 08:02 AM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  20. #1960
    Pandaren Monk Mhyroth's Avatar
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    The SDCC Trailer comments are fun as hell.

    "the part where Galadriel ..."
    "the part where Galadriel..."
    "My favorite part of the trailer.."

    This is going to be a shitshow obviously.
    "If you are what you HAVE and you lose what you have, what then are you? But if you are what you ARE and you lose what you have, no man controls your destiny".

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