4: having very little color, coloring, or pigmentation : very light
- fair hair
- fair skin
- a person of fair complexion
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fair
5: pleasing to the eye or mind especially because of fresh, charming, or flawless quality
The innkeeper had two fair daughters.
Considering how little skin color played into the rest of his work (Dwarves' are never even mentioned, for instance), I'm leaning toward this one as far as his intent.
Someone mentioned how Shakespeare actors should be all white because Shakespeare wrote plays about all white people.
You are the only one saying this. As someone else pointed out, if this was genuinely an alternate history of man, it would START would black people. Also, Europe as a whole was very diverse from even before medieval times, in terms of Middle Easterners, North Africans, and, religiously, Muslims, Jews, and pagans. Now, maybe the British Isles were never really diverse then, but that's not what you suggested. In fact, if Rohan is based on Spain, and Gondor France (since the LOTR most closely mirrors the conflicts of the World Wars), you would expect some darker skinned people there pretty much through their history stretching back to the Roman Empire.Wrong.
The main argument is that the story -- an alternative history of the Earth -- takes place in a region of the world notably lacking any sort of diversity due to numerous reasons.
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Firstly, I didn't suggest these times were diverse as modern times. I said that *because* they're not as diverse, we shouldn't care about casting black actors to play race-neutral parts. In this case, race neutral means - "race not being an integral part of their CHARACTER" as opposed to "race not being a part of their DESCRIPTION."
Secondly, Europe has been fairly diverse since the Roman Empire. The British Isles, the Germanic tribes, maybe not as much, but Italy/Spain/France, those areas were literal melting pots of the three nearby continents (the Middle East/AKA Asia, Africa, and Europe)
So you admit they were tiny faery like creatures - but have no problem with Tolkein making them tall?!? Hypocrisy much?!? /sIn European mythology elves were often depicted as pale, angelic like ethereal beings or sometimes like fairies and gnomes.
And outside of high fantasy, they are most often seen associated with Christmas and Santa Claus.
Except he did note it... when it was a notable change. Like he did with the Southrons. Again, if it wasn't a distinguishable characteristic (compared to the 'norm' of the region), there'd be absolutely no reason to mention it.
Also again, this is the same man who spent an inordinate amount of time describing the smallest detail of his world...
You may have noticed the first two sentences of my last paragraph of the post you quoted. "It'd be one thing if, say, all the dwarves on the show were portrayed by black actors. That'd be far more believable within the context of the story than a wide diversity of people."
Having had time to let this stir in my head, I realized that this is exactly the same argument as is being made. In his time, they were using inappropriate actors to portray specific roles; just in this case it was men playing women. Why, exactly, was it okay to deviate from that in order to cast more appropriate actors for the role, but not here?
Last edited by Rocksteady 87; 2022-08-08 at 04:41 PM.
It wasn't okay, just like blackface wasn't okay, yet he had white men playing Othello, a play he specifically wrote about a black man. The point is that that's how Shakespeare put on his plays, because of the context of the society he lived in (which didn't allow women or black men on stage). So, since that's how the play was originally put on - does that mean we have to stick with that forever? Because the society didn't allow for anything else, even if Shakespeare pretty clearly wrote about everyone?
Are all the old version of Peter Pan where Peter is famously played by a woman invalid adaptation?
Is Michael Jackson's The Wiz an invalid adaptation of The Wizard of Oz?
A hypothetical: If I put on a Lovecraft story in a movie, but changed it so it wasn't racist, but kept the eldritch horror, is that an invalid adaptation?
"And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-Míriel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls."
http://www.henneth-annun.net/events_view.cfm?evid=711
I think you are confusing adaptation and portrayal. The Wiz is an adaptation of The Wizard of Oz. It is not simply The Wizard of Oz with all black actors. Women portray Peter Pan, oddly enough, because of English labor laws in the early 20th century. However, they also happen to look like early teenage boys a lot longer than early teenage boys do.
Last edited by gamz247; 2022-08-08 at 05:29 PM.
And what makes more sense here, "whiter than silver" or "more beautiful/precious than silver"?
Ivory, pearls, and silver or gold (depending on cultural context) are THE classical reference materials of great value in ancient times (along with jade if you're looking at East Asian contexts). They were the most precious of the widely used ornamental materials at the time, as e.g. diamonds didn't really come to the forefront as ornamental gemstones until the modern era; they were mostly used for their hardness during ancient times, e.g. for drilling holes into other precious stones, not for their beauty which doesn't really come out without sophisticated cutting and polishing technologies.
All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.
Y'all gotta chill.
All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.
This is some of the most nonsensical ranting I've seen so far in this thread. What the fuck do Tom Cruise, James Bond (a character that has undergone a lot of modernization and has changed drastically from when he was written, and may well be played by a person of color soon), and Spider-man (a character who has been portrayed with a lot of diversity in print runs and movies) have anything to do with this?
And it's not about whether every story should have an increase in diversity when adapted to the screen, or anyone saying diversity is required. What you're trying to argue is that THIS story specifically needs to not have ANY diversity in its cast, and you're apparently basing that on "because that's how it was originally written" and "look at these other well liked white characters/people". Obviously neither of those are good reasons for purposefully excluding actors based on their skin color when they can do the job just fine otherwise.
That's NOT inserting culture. When the Peter Jackson movies came out, did you complain about people like Viggo Mortensen, Elijah Wood, and Sean Astin inserting "American culture" into Tolkien? From the British cast of the Fellowship we had English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish representation from various generations, yet you seem to have been ok with that diversity. The elves were mostly Australians and New Zealanders, but apparently no cultural issues there either, right?
None of these people were from the same generation as Tolkien, much less identify as whatever "ancient Europeans" you think their characters are inspired by. They're MODERN actors who do their best to play the roles they're given. That extends as well to the cast of this show. And again, the only issue you seem to have is with the color of their skin, which again has nothing to do with culture here.
You do, apparently. Plenty of people have no problem accepting him as a hobbit if the only difference between him and Ian Holm is the color of their skin.
Apparently you're unaware of how adaptations actually work, otherwise you wouldn't be suggesting something as childish as every adaptation of book to screen is a "butchering" of the source material. And yes, this all has to do with Tolkien since it's based in the world he started creating using the creatures and characters he made a few notes about. Adaptations are NEVER required to be 100% faithful translations of the original sources because what works for one medium might not work for another quite as well. This show (like the movies) is drama, and the literature only forms a basis for what gets adapted to the screen.
The Silmarillion is also a travesty. It's using parts written by Tolkien but edited by Christopher Tolkien and Guy Gavriel Kay. How dare they invent new stories based on the true gospel of Tolkien. /s
nuke this retarded thread already.
no, i don't, and that was the entire fucking point i was making, hence my response to the person i quoted, they used a term 'european culture' which simply doesn't exist, PURELY BECAUSE OF THE MYRIAD CULTURES AND PEOPLES THAT MAKE UP EUROPE, did you even bother to read what i wrote?
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if the project is to be historically accurate, then yes, and you make sure that both the audience and the people behind the project understand this ahead of time, because in this instance the casting of all men in all roles is not only a social commentary, it's also historical fact, you can however have the exact same story and as long as you make known ahead of time that you will be casting it 'as intended' then that's perfectly fine also, the problem with the ringding of powah project, every single interview/PR stunt dressed up as marketing pushed the narrative that they were doing a faithful adaptation of the works of JRR Tolkein, then after the heaviest and most pronounced backlash against a 'woke agenda pushing, diversity riddled mess' they have constantly flip flopped between different types of medium to describe what they are doing, going from a pure 'adaptation', to making it a 'reimagining', now it's being tagged as a story 'inspired by' the works of Tolkein, all of these things are vastly different to each other and none of them have any crossover, and yet here we are with the showrunners who have since in very recent interviews come out and said themselves they have neglected aspects of the story because it didn't fit with their narrative, they have admitted that they were changing aspects of already established lore.
and just for some kind of education for you and everyone else who uses theater productions as an arguement, pantomime productions in the UK ALWAYS have the 'panto dame' played by a man, not only is it a nod to history in that men played all roles, but it's traditional and is something that is held onto for those reasons, i doubt you would find any successful Panto production with a female 'dame'.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI8wt5soxXE
LotR isn't history. Obviously.
There is nothing contradictory about saying you want to stay faithful to the source material while reimagining parts of it to suit the story you actually want to tell. Especially given how little source material they actually have access to in the case of this production. That's how adaptations work. One day you might figure that out, but I'm not holding my breath.
And if they did actually change their messaging in an attempt to appease the bigoted fucks who see a black person and scream "woke agenda pushing, diversity-riddled mess," that would have been their mistake. Not casting the black guy in the first place. Because those people deserve no consideration beyond calling out their bullshit on WoW fan forums.