Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[RobertoCarlos]

Wasn't Prince of Persia considered one of the best video game movies for quite awhile? I don't remember, tbh.

I mean thats not much of a claim of quality being the "best video game movie" when 99% of them are dog shit. But no it wasnt considered good, was a commerical flop, and was more later mocked for being a bad example of race swapping when its never really been about the race swapping per say but the fact the studios want a bankable movie star like Jake Gyllenhaal and there are not many Persia super stars waiting around. Which perhaps highlights a racism issue with casting in the first place to get to said star level.

[Xath]

So is using a brown horse when Tolkien wrote piebald horse, and I'd like to see where anyone is seriously complaining about THAT.

This is the ultimate red herring, because it's trying to appeal to a kind of purity that isn't just completely unrealistic, but that's also blatantly ignored by the very same people as long as it's about any cosmetic detail BUT skin color.

Either adherence to the source matters for EVERY detail - in which case you'll never accept any kind of adaptation whatsoever, so why are you here arguing about something you'll never accept and never were going to accept as a matter of definition.

Or it matters for SOME details but not others - in which case you'll have to provide a GOOD REASON for every detail that you claim should not be changed. And "because Tolkien wrote it!" is not one, since that's tautological, circular logic.

I've literally complained in this thread about them changing Hermione's outfit from a a perwinkle blue robe to a pink dress for the yule ball yes I care about that type of accuracy and it bugs me but that was at least with author consent you can't get author's consent when they are dead.

[Sialina]

Why should I care if there are white people in "your movies?" If a Chinese director or studio wants to cast white people, they can cast white people. If Chinese audiences want to see white actors in those productions, and the studios think they will make more money by casting them, they will cast white actors. This shit isn't complicated.

At least you are nice enough to admit you had no argument, great!

The only people taking offense are the people who apparently find it offensive that dark skinned people were cast in this show.

I've said it several times already in this thread. I would have had no issue with the show having cast only white actors. Tolkien's writing left a lot of ambiguity in the descriptions of a lot of peoples and specific characters. I'm fine with the showrunners using that ambiguity to cast a diverse set of actors. That's it, super simple.

Tolkien specifically said that this portion of Middle-earth is not in anyway congruent with white Northern Europe (geographically, archeologically, culturally, or spiritually) and he detested it being referred to as 'Nordic' (as an intrinsically white narrative), so having non-white skin tones where none where specified isn't some butchering of his work. But I will say that it's pretty disturbing seeing the lengths people will go to try to push a virulently exclusionary whites-only agendas. Even if you yourself aren't white, these are still segregationist agendas.

In this thread we've had everything from "black people can't be elves because elves are supposed to be attractive" to "black British actors don't have the right culture to play British people". It's pretty bad.

You are arguing in bad faith, I've given you several options, all supported in the lore, that could see dark skinned character in the series, both as main cast and supporting cast, heroes and villains, that doesn't suit your agenda though, so you ignore it every time in favor of the current tokenism.

Lets get one thing clear, the show this far has a TON of problems, this is just one of them.

[s_bushido]

At least you are nice enough to admit you had no argument, great!

What argument am I supposed to have? I don't give a shit if a Chinese production casts white people any more than I give a shit if an American production casts black people. Why should I?

It's pretty easy to justify basically any casting choice if you actually try. From an all-Chinese production of West Side Story to an all-Black production of Mulan. The only time the race/ethnicity of the actors matters in crap like this is if the intention is to be as historically accurate as possible. When that comes to the historicity of fictional races in a fictional world? You'll forgive me if I just can't muster up very much Give a Fuck.

[Sialina]

What argument am I supposed to have? I don't give a shit if a Chinese production casts white people any more than I give a shit if an American production casts black people. Why should I?

It's pretty easy to justify basically any casting choice if you actually try. From an all-Chinese production of West Side Story to an all-Black production of Mulan. The only time the race/ethnicity of the actors matters in crap like this is if the intention is to be as historically accurate as possible. When that comes to the historicity of fictional races in a fictional world? You'll forgive me if I just can't muster up very much Give a Fuck.

I disagree, anything historical you have the actual event as reference, you can cast anything that doesn't straight up give offense. Adapting a story based on fiction requires much greater attention to detail. Everyone knows D-day happened, there is no disbelief to suspend, in the realm of fiction it is a lot easier to be pulled out of the story specifically because it isn't real.
You see the same with characters, if you have a story based on a real person, it's ok for him to know 15 languages if the real person did, in a fictional story that will straight away take you out of the character if it isn't extremely well written.
If you are good at turning your brain off or simply don't have one that works very well to begin with I can see how nothing takes you out of a story though?

[VMSmith]

Not LoTR-related, but on-topic with what's going on in this thread, it looks like there's another piece of media art out there getting blasted for casting someone of the wrong race for a part - https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/10/opini...les/index.html, even though the real-life person's daughter has approved of the casting choice.

[Adamas102]

You are arguing in bad faith, I've given you several options, all supported in the lore, that could see dark skinned character in the series, both as main cast and supporting cast, heroes and villains, that doesn't suit your agenda though, so you ignore it every time in favor of the current tokenism.

Lets get one thing clear, the show this far has a TON of problems, this is just one of them.

Yeah, sure. Keep tossing around words that you don't even know the meaning of while suggesting "keep diversity relegated to the obscure corners of the fiction so that the core of the franchise can remain white" is a reasonable option. So far no one has pointed out any problems other than the show not living up to their whites only agenda.

[Triceron]

Yeah, sure. Keep tossing around words that you don't even know the meaning of while suggesting "keep diversity relegated to the obscure corners of the fiction so that the core of the franchise can remain white" is a reasonable option. So far no one has pointed out any problems other than the show not living up to their whites only agenda.

What's wrong with an all white cast? You admit yourself you have no problems with that.

I'm curious why you're weaponizing that dogma against others.

[Adamas102]

That is my point. I hope this clears some things up about the discussion.

We are way past the whole "this is an adaptation and doesn't equate to Tolkien's actual words" argument (because it was never one to begin with). Yes, it's an adaptation and all of us accept some level of creative license, either in filling in parts where the source material lacked in detail or making adjustments to fit a dramatic medium. The original source material still remains unchanged; gaps, inconsistencies, and all.

If you want to stand by what you said before about leaving the gaps the author left as gaps, that's fine. But don't contradict yourself by then asserting that you know how those gaps can or can't be filled. That being said, I still contend that my argument for including the casting of dark skinned dwarves (and other characters) is perfectly acceptable given the descriptions (and sometimes lack thereof) presented in the source material, as well as the words of the author himself in answering questions directly related to his work.

People make such a big fucking deal about skin color diversity because it has so much historical, cultural, and ethnic baggage in our real world. In reality it's such a minor variation for humans and would be the same for pretty much any fantastical creature that resembled humans. Eye color, hair color, skin color. It's all the same mechanism. If they cast an actor with green eyes as a dwarf no one would bat an eye, despite it being on the exact same level genetically as dark skin.

- - - Updated - - -

What's wrong with an all white cast? You admit yourself you have no problems with that.

I'm curious why you're weaponizing that dogma against others.

Nothing is wrong with an all white cast. Pretty much every post I've given in this thread has been in response to the notion that a non-all white cast IS bad. A notion that has been "backed up" with some extraordinarily bad takes.

[Triceron]

Nothing is wrong with an all white cast. Pretty much every post I've given in this thread has been in response to the notion that a non-all white cast IS bad. A notion that has been "backed up" with some extraordinarily bad takes.

Perhaps you're just nit listening intently enough.

You can look at my post history here. Majority of my posts in this thread are about openly supporting diversity in the show. So i want to be clear where I stand in this discussion.

From talking to alot of people on the other side, it seems more people want a more authentic depiction of the world as originally told by Tolkien. That's all.

Yes, you can argue that things are left to interpretation or that the lines can get blurred. But as I've outlined many times, what you are talking avout isn't how most people interpret Middle Earth as we all know it to be.

And from discussions with people who are against the idea of Black Dwarves in RoP, many are not against diversity of in defense of an all-white cast. Most people would reasonably argue that black skinned characters should be derived from the black skinned races that are actually known in the fiction. Examples like a heroic southron or haradrim, or even some people of Gondor who have been described with darker complexions. There are ways to bridge in diversity while still respecting the source material.

And frankly, that's mostly how Peter Jackson handled the trilogy, and it was fine for it. Did we need Black Dwarves and Elves to satisfy a diversity status quo in Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit? Not really. And we're talking about something completely new anyways, why not introduce a badass heroic wanderer from the South? It'd be just as cool and wouldn't be as egregious as what we literally have right now.

Because even if you disagree with the hate against Black Dwarves, it should be obvious enough that there is substantial controversy surrounding the creative decisions behind Rings of Power and the conscious choice to deviate from the source material. It goes way beyond mere skin color.

Again, I have no problems with it, but that doesn't mean I turn a blind eye to it being a legitimate problem to many others. That's where I stand.

[rogoth]

Perhaps you're just nit listening intently enough.

You can look at my post history here. Majority of my posts in this thread are about openly supporting diversity in the show. So i want to be clear where I stand in this discussion.

From talking to alot of people on the other side, it seems more people want a more authentic depiction of the world as originally told by Tolkien. That's all.

Yes, you can argue that things are left to interpretation or that the lines can get blurred. But as I've outlined many times, what you are talking avout isn't how most people interpret Middle Earth as we all know it to be.

And from discussions with people who are against the idea of Black Dwarves in RoP, many are not against diversity of in defense of an all-white cast. Most people would reasonably argue that black skinned characters should be derived from the black skinned races that are actually known in the fiction. Examples like a heroic southron or haradrim, or even some people of Gondor who have been described with darker complexions. There are ways to bridge in diversity while still respecting the source material.

And frankly, that's mostly how Peter Jackson handled the trilogy, and it was fine for it. Did we need Black Dwarves and Elves to satisfy a diversity status quo in Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit? Not really. And we're talking about something completely new anyways, why not introduce a badass heroic wanderer from the South? It'd be just as cool and wouldn't be as egregious as what we literally have right now.

Because even if you disagree with the hate against Black Dwarves, it should be obvious enough that there is substantial controversy surrounding the creative decisions behind Rings of Power and the conscious choice to deviate from the source material. It goes way beyond mere skin color.

Again, I have no problems with it, but that doesn't mean I turn a blind eye to it being a legitimate problem to many others. That's where I stand.

thank you for saying quite succinctly what i and many many others have been arguing in this thread since the page number was in single digits, and this muppet you're responding to at every turn coming back with the same tired rhetoric that has no basis in fact, and is just regurgitating the same woke defense tactics that have been seen for years now 'you don't like this minority character therefore you're racist hur dur', ignoring nay and all context and only acknowledging the parts of the lore that support their viewpoint while completely disregarding anyone else's.

[Veggie50]

Perhaps you're just nit listening intently enough.

You can look at my post history here. Majority of my posts in this thread are about openly supporting diversity in the show. So i want to be clear where I stand in this discussion.

From talking to alot of people on the other side, it seems more people want a more authentic depiction of the world as originally told by Tolkien. That's all.

Yes, you can argue that things are left to interpretation or that the lines can get blurred. But as I've outlined many times, what you are talking avout isn't how most people interpret Middle Earth as we all know it to be.

And from discussions with people who are against the idea of Black Dwarves in RoP, many are not against diversity of in defense of an all-white cast. Most people would reasonably argue that black skinned characters should be derived from the black skinned races that are actually known in the fiction. Examples like a heroic southron or haradrim, or even some people of Gondor who have been described with darker complexions. There are ways to bridge in diversity while still respecting the source material.

And frankly, that's mostly how Peter Jackson handled the trilogy, and it was fine for it. Did we need Black Dwarves and Elves to satisfy a diversity status quo in Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit? Not really. And we're talking about something completely new anyways, why not introduce a badass heroic wanderer from the South? It'd be just as cool and wouldn't be as egregious as what we literally have right now.

Because even if you disagree with the hate against Black Dwarves, it should be obvious enough that there is substantial controversy surrounding the creative decisions behind Rings of Power and the conscious choice to deviate from the source material. It goes way beyond mere skin color.

Again, I have no problems with it, but that doesn't mean I turn a blind eye to it being a legitimate problem to many others. That's where I stand.

I hear what you’re saying, but I’m not quite sure there’s a “substantial controversy”. That is indeed what the “purists” would have you believe, but in other cases it has turned out to be an overly vocal small minority.

[Adamas102]

That one line from the appendix is not the full story of how that downfall occurred. This is what is in the Simarillion and other work.

I copied one line, but it's part of a larger paragraph detailing (sparsely) the events leading up to the downfall. I was merely countering the idea that it wasn't really mentioned at all. There's enough of the barebones story in the appendices for Amazon to work off, and lets not pretend that the Silmarillion is anything close to a fully fleshed out narrative.

They were all part of the same "race" of men, but not vastly different in phenotype, such as the difference between Asians and Europeans or Europeans and Africans. In the world of Tolkien there were different phenotypes in different parts of the world such as in Harad and so forth, who also were identified as "swarthy". But what swarthy means is very much open to interpretation here, but that doesn't mean that the house of Beor would look like real world Africans, Asians, Eskimos, Polynesians or Native Americans. If anything it implies that some of those groups may have had a slightly darker phenotype but not so vastly different as being implied by "mixed race". A better term would be mixed complexion. I think you are expanding a whole lot beyond what swarthy means in the English language to imply extreme differences in phenotype, when it doesn't.

Differences in hair color and differences in skin color are on the exact same order in terms of human genetic mutations. Dark skin (lots of melanin) vs light skin (less melanin) is exactly the same as brown hair (lots of melanin) vs blonde hair (less melanin) in terms of phenotype variation. I'll agree that "race" isn't the best term since it's a pretty outdated one. Using "mixed complexion" is fine, but that description is pretty meaningless since it extends to all of humanity. Either the group in question has no variation in genetics that govern melanin synthesis, or it does have variation. The Edain that became the Numenoreans, obviously did have those genetic variations.

Generally, at best, what you get is they were swarthy or something like that. So without that kind of almost anthropological understanding of all the different types of variation found among all the different human populations, you are basically opening the door to whatever interpretation you want. And at that point lore and what literally is in Tolkien isn't really going to matter.

Yes and no.

Yes, I am fully aware that this is the realm of interpretation rather than simply expanding the sparse descriptions across every thing in the text that didn't get a description. No, the lore and Tolkien still matter since I'm rooting all my arguments in what is found in the text and said by the author in letters and interviews (often in response to questions about exactly what we're talking about).

Just as it is obvious that the depiction of Miriel in this show as black is not matching what is in literally in the lore so she could equally have been Asian, Eskimo, Pacific Islander or any of the other variations of phenotype from the real word. But the house of Beor as sometimes being swarthy doesn't imply or suggest someone looking like a black African no more than it does a person looking Asian or Native American.

It's ridiculous that you keep calling the actor "black" when as mixed heritage she's as black as she is white. It's another problematic issue stemming from how people in our real world see skin color and race. But no, I'm not saying that the House of Beor suggests someone that could look like someone plucked from the Somali bush, but the actor in question fits well within what could be considered "swarthy". And as I said in a prior post, I'm aware of how the Silmarillion describes Miriel, but when you take that text out of consideration (because it's not a source material for the show) the creators of the series have the optionality that the appendices gives them.

Also another thing that goes along with this lack of explicit detail of every feature is the fact that most mythology does not specify phenotype when describing their characters or "humans" in general. Most of the time it is assumed they look like whatever group created that mythology to begin with. And it is only when these myths are recorded in artwork that you understand the phenotype associated with these people and other beings. I doubt you will find an ancient text that explicitly says Odin was a white dude with a beard.

I'd say that myths belong to the region, not the specific people who first created them. So for instance, I think it's perfectly fine for someone like Idris Elba, as a British man, to play Heimdall (assuming all the aliases of those northern Germanic deities are interchangeable, Wodan/Odin, Thunor/Thor, etc). We've already covered the point that Tolkien dropped the idea of Middle-earth being a "mythology of England" early on in his writings, but if you want to bring that back into the fold then I think it's even more reason to make Middle-earth that much more diverse in order to match the diversity in modern Britain. Like I said, these are the myths of the region and British myths belong to ALL Britons, not just the ones who happen to look similar to the people of 1,000 years ago.

[Triceron]

I hear what you’re saying, but I’m not quite sure there’s a “substantial controversy”. That is indeed what the “purists” would have you believe, but in other cases it has turned out to be an overly vocal small minority.

Whatever the case, they're making their voices heard. And it's one thing to disagree on people having problems with Black Dwarves, it's another to blanketly assume they're all against diversity.

In most cases, people are fine with it where it makes sense and fits. It's when things don't fit when people start being vocal.

- - - Updated - - -

thank you for saying quite succinctly what i and many many others have been arguing in this thread since the page number was in single digits, and this muppet you're responding to at every turn coming back with the same tired rhetoric that has no basis in fact, and is just regurgitating the same woke defense tactics that have been seen for years now 'you don't like this minority character therefore you're racist hur dur', ignoring nay and all context and only acknowledging the parts of the lore that support their viewpoint while completely disregarding anyone else's.

If they were really interested on defending diversity, all they need to do is sinoly ask if people think a diverse cast would be acceptable and how they think it could work. Simple as that

Instead it seems there's a lot of projection going on where they believe anyone who isn't for Black Dwarves must be neo-nazis or something. It's very disconcerting.

I think most people have more common ground than it seems. Like, most people here will probably agree that the Peter Jackson movies were good and respects the source material even with all its creative liberties. And regardless of what diverging opinions exist towards RoP, I think most people would want it to have the same level of respect to the source material as the PJ films had. Creative liberties are fine as long as they're within reason and make sense.

[Adamas102]

You can look at my post history here. Majority of my posts in this thread are about openly supporting diversity in the show. So i want to be clear where I stand in this discussion.

From talking to alot of people on the other side, it seems more people want a more authentic depiction of the world as originally told by Tolkien. That's all.

Oh, you sweet summer child... I'll certainly admit that you're not in the camp I was referring to, but it would be you who's not listening if you fail to see that the virulence in most of these posters goes far deeper than just "I disagree with some of these changes".

I mean, you have rogoth (peeking his head in here again, I see) who contributes little more than anti-woke rants, lying about Amazon's diversity policy, and thinking that a comparable story to Hansel and Gretel with African American children should involve a crack house. Specialk and Radeghost (both on vacation) because they like to pop in on occasion to stir the pot on the dangers of race-swapping and seem to think that NYC is the only city with black people in it given how many times they like to draw comparisons to it. Varodoc who pretty much went all the way in saying that it's good for elves to be white because they were meant to be attractive. InfiniteCharger tries his best, but can't seem to get away from the idea that skin color isn't the same as culture or ethnicity and from a genetic point of view isn't any more "extreme" than hair color. VHSmith who thinks more diverse casts equates to erasing white people. Sialina who seems to think that minorities having roles that are central to the plot is tokenism. And of course those are just the ones I've responded to these past few days.

Yeah, some of it is just plain ignorance, but for most of them the disdain for diversity is rooted in far more than just wanting to adhere to the source material.

And from discussions with people who are against the idea of Black Dwarves in RoP, many are not against diversity of in defense of an all-white cast. Most people would reasonably argue that black skinned characters should be derived from the black skinned races that are actually known in the fiction. Examples like a heroic southron or haradrim, or even some people of Gondor who have been described with darker complexions. There are ways to bridge in diversity while still respecting the source material.

This is weak, and amounts to "we don't really want to try to include you in the main story, so why don't we just segregate you to the most obscure parts of this fictional world". Look, most of the cast is white. Other than Tar-Miriel (whose description comes from a source that Amazon doesn't have the rights to), the series has cast its non-white actors in roles that are wholly original. Dwarves, elves, and hobbits are the core races of Middle-earth, the most recognizable and the most beloved. Just as Tolkien expressly said that this part of Middle-earth wasn't in anyway a home just for white, NorthernEuropean-centric stories, these stories are for everyone (especially the people of England who he dedicated this fictional world to). That of course includes the British actors who also happen to be people of color who now get to participate in an adaptation of this much beloved setting. I don't think "because the source material SUGGESTS they should all be white" is a good enough reason to bar these actors from participating in one of the great literary works of their country.

[Orby]

The non-Tolkien fans have to bring up things like this to try and make the OG trilogy look bad so RoP looks closer to not being complete utter shit, better off just ignoring them.

You literally had an elf catching arrows in RoP, I don't think I am gonna be as defensive about RoP than you think. Also Lord of the Rings trilogy is one of my favourite movies of all time, hell I even liked the first movie in the Hobbit trilogy, the rest not so much, just because I am not willing to not jump on the RoP hate train before I see the show doesn't mean I hate the original movies.

And using words like 'non-Tolkien fans' at people makes you look like you have a superiority complex, who died and made you king of what Lord of the Rings should be?

And i will stand by thinking some of the Legolas stuff looked dumb, as well as a lot of the CGI that is related to him hasn't held up very well, especially if like me you got the 4k editions. Sure if you are a kid when you watched LoTR it might have been cool, but I was like 20 when the first movie came out and 21 when the second movie came out. and you know what, there might even be a new generation of kids growing up with RoP that will love this 20 years down the line too. We could all maybe hate it, but its future generations that are going to see it differently, or not, who knows. I don't care I'll be like 60 years old by that point lol

[Sorrowseer]

I think I may enjoy the tv series more than I expected, in a more low key way, I hope anyway, I read the lotr books and while I did enjoy the movies the things they did differently did annoy me, not in a fanatic way, far from it, the books were so fucking tedious at times, but some details mostly army comp bothered me

[tikcol]

Not LoTR-related, but on-topic with what's going on in this thread, it looks like there's another piece of media art out there getting blasted for casting someone of the wrong race for a part - https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/10/opini...les/index.html, even though the real-life person's daughter has approved of the casting choice.

He looks like Castro though so what is the problem?

He actually looks very much alike

[Sialina]

Yeah, sure. Keep tossing around words that you don't even know the meaning of while suggesting "keep diversity relegated to the obscure corners of the fiction so that the core of the franchise can remain white" is a reasonable option. So far no one has pointed out any problems other than the show not living up to their whites only agenda.

Again you are arguing in bad faith, I never suggested they should be background characters, I SPECIFICALLY said they can be heroes, side characters, villains, anything you want.
Then you say I don't know what Tokenism is when you add a single black elf without president? That is EXACTLY what tokenism is.
You also ignore the fact that I'm not white myself.

If you read through what people are actually saying you will see that most people are totally fine with adding dark skinned characters, it just needs to make sense in the lore without trying to stretch bend and distort it.

And if you want a majority black cast in a fantasy movie, why not adopt a different story? Rage of Dragons by Evan Winters is one of the best fantasy books I've ever read and it would make an excellent movie, every single character in that is black.

[Orby]

I'd argue some of them still need to do some of this growing up. Some more than others.

The thread is still focused on the skin colour of characters in a make-believe world, and the posts are largely just full of pedantry to excuse their dislike of those less-than-white colours. I wish we could just dispense with the pedantry and move on (because those characters aren't going anywhere), but I think this is pretty much the thread until RoP actually starts airing. Then it'll be a whole different kettle of fish.

There are some legit reasons on why people can be curious on disliking the show upon release, its perfectly fine for people to be cautious. But good good when your only complaint is skin colour we need some people to revaluate their life choices.

'Hello Future Me' did a great video on the good reasons and the bad reasons to be sceptical about the show.

Timestamp 9:13 for this forum :P



I love this channel, he did a very good video on writing mental health in stories and video games. those are his popular videos.