Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

Putting aside for the moment the fact that "oh so if black people are okay PURPLE PEOPLE ARE OKAY TOO RIGHT" is a pretty hare-brained objection, yeah, if they make purple elves work, I'm down to fuck.

I would LOVE to see some well-made neon punk interpretation of popular materials, in fact. That sounds pretty rad.

And I'm sure it'd be an interesting adaptation at that.

And people will very likely make their voices heard on how it's not canonical to the source material and ignores the lore. If that makes you uncomfortable, you can try and get over it.

[Polyxo]

obvsly only zombie Jan Sobieski can play Theoden because history an shit.

[Biomega]

And people will very likely make their voices heard on how it's not canonical to the source material and ignores the lore. If that makes you uncomfortable, you can try and get over it.

It doesn't and never has.

Because NO adaptation, PERIOD, is ever going to be 100% accurate to the source material. You're just negotiating about details. Unless you have an objection to casting black actors that isn't just "but they're not black in the book!", "they weren't black in other films", or "black people in fantasy are just WEIRD, idk", there's little to talk about.

[Triceron]

It doesn't and never has.

Because NO adaptation, PERIOD, is ever going to be 100% accurate to the source material. You're just negotiating about details. Unless you have an objection to casting black actors that isn't just "but they're not black in the book!", "they weren't black in other films", or "black people in fantasy are just WEIRD, idk", there's little to talk about.

I don't have an objection to the casting of black actors. I'm merely making points about how it's not canonical to the original depiction and strays from the original fiction.

I can point out that there are differences to the original book without it being an objection. Just like if I point out that the original source material didn't have Orcs and Goblins as different races, it's not an objection to the Peter Jackson movies. It's literally just pointing out the differences. And I'm doing so because there are people literally trying to explain how black dwarves fit back into Tolkien's original narrative. It simply doesn't, because skin tone isn't mentioned at all, and the concept of multicultural/ethnic Dwarves wouldn't be supported in the original. It'd merely be a product of being an adaptation.

Which makes me wonder why merely pointing out the facts bothers you so much. If it really didn't bother you, I don't see why you'd even bother bringing attention to it.

[jonnysensible]

because skin tone isn't mentioned at all

exactly you could make every character in lotr and the hobbit black and it wouldn't change it at all. Its like casting denzel as macbeth, not a problem. Its not important to the plot or story in anyway.

[Biomega]

I don't have an objection to the casting of black actors. I'm merely making points about how it's not canonical to the original depiction and strays from the original fiction.

Yes. We know. Everyone knows.

They just don't give a shit.

I can point out that there are differences to the original book without it being an objection.

And it's pointless and trivial, but sure, you do you I guess?

And I'm doing so because there are people literally trying to explain how black dwarves fit back into Tolkien's original narrative.

I think there might be a difference between "let's put black dwarves in the original narrative" and "the original narrative still works even if the dwarves were black".

One might also point out that the original narrative definitely doesn't say dwarves AREN'T black. For all that's worth (see above).

multicultural/ethnic

Those are not the same thing.

Which makes me wonder why merely pointing out the facts bothers you so much.

I think you confuse something. I didn't say it BOTHERS me, I said I don't give a shit what the original does or doesn't say about skin color UNLESS there's a good reason to.

What BOTHERS me is people using "but but but originaaaaal!" as a smokescreen for their obvious racism.

[Triceron]

exactly you could make every character in lotr and the hobbit black and it wouldn't change it at all. Its like casting denzel as macbeth, not a problem. Its not important to the plot or story in anyway.

Yes, and it would also not be how the original fiction depicts these races and characters.

It would not be important to the plot but it would be important to the world building and greater story. Story involves history, and if we're implying the history is represented in a completely different way, then that also changes the entire worldview of the fictional universe.

And yes, that's fine for an adaptation to do. My point has always been that you can't then try and retroactively explain that it's what Tolkien always intended, while there are people who are actively trying to make that point.

[Biomega]

if we're implying the history is represented in a completely different way, then that also changes the entire worldview of the fictional universe.

Bull. Shit.

Some of the magically created beings were now created with darker skin than others. THE END.

That's not "the entire world view of the fictional universe" upended.

Holy hell, that is some of the most drama-queen racist tripe I've ever heard.

[InfiniteCharger]

"Therefore, no darkies allowed!" Is that the punchline?

Obviously that is what it means to you since you referred to "darkies" because that must be what you think of African people.
It just blows your mind that European literature would have *gasp* white European people in it. Like what kind of world do we live in huh?

But beyond that, there is a thing called European literature and mythology. And just like Chinese mythology deals with Chinese people or Indian mythology deals with Indian people, European mythology deals with European people. This is simply a fact. And anybody who is familiar with European literature would be familiar with that. Elves, gnomes, dwarves and so forth are all creatures from European mythology, along with wizards and witches. This is the "real world" that most people understand when talking of European literature.

J. R. R. Tolkien was a Rawlinson and Bosworth Professor of Anglo-Saxon and then afterwards a Merton Professor of English Language and Literature. Nothing in either of those fields of study of English literature would suggest mythologies and languages tied to Africa, Asia, the Pacific, Americas or anywhere else. As such his imagining of dwarves, gnomes, Elves and other such fantasy creatures would be from that European tradition.

And most people reading Tolkien understood that and saw his world from that perspective. This is why people claiming that folks "needed" to see diversity outside that context of European mythology are just making up stuff, because these books have been sold around the world for over 60 years. And if people needed to see themselves it wouldn't have a global audience or the best selling book of all time.

Similarly when most people went to see Hong Kong Karate movies, they expected to see Chinese people doing Kung Fu. Not Native Americans, Europeans, Pacific Islanders or Africans, because Chinese culture and mythology is Chinese, not African, European or Pacific Islander.. And most people watching those moves weren't demanding to "see themselves" either. And just like with Tolkien it was American studio owners that demanded diversity in these movies, when Bruce Lee became famous. That wasn't coming from the general public. And nobody that I know of in the general public has been demanding this kind of diversity in Tolkien. Most of that is coming from the studios and leftist academics.

So it isn't an issue of not wanting to see Africans in Tolkien versus most people not going to see Tolkien in order to see how much real world "diversity" is in it outside of European mythology. And certainly Tolkien is not supposed to be an allegory for the mistreatment, injustices or harm done to people around the world due to skin color. Most people going to see a live action version of Tolkien are going to see what Tolkien wrote and not how many blacks are going to be in it. That is absurd. And this is why it is the studio out there pushing this so hard versus actual everyday people because that was never something important to them to begin with.

Not to mention these studios who promote this kind of "diversity" are hypocritical because if they really wanted to see "black people" in fantasy they would do any of the many stories, myths and legends from Africa in live action. Or do some Greek mythology where there are plenty of African characters. Or even better they could adapt any of the other numerous high fantasy games and books out there with this kind of diversity already included. But these studios don't think it would make money and don't really care much about that so they would rather just use European stories because they figure they can make money off it. There are plenty of black dwarves in African mythology, including the god Bes from the Nile Valley. Not to mention all kinds of magic, nature spirits, magical beings, deities and so forth.

[Triceron]

Yes. We know. Everyone knows.

They just don't give a shit.

Er, no. Not everyone knows. If they did then I literally have no reason to point out the obvious to people who are arguing that Black Dwarves fit into Tolkien's original fiction.

If it really bothers you, just let it go dude.

[Biomega]

Er, no. Not everyone knows. If they did then I literally have no reason to point out the obvious to people who are arguing that Black Dwarves fit into Tolkien's original fiction.

I get that you don't think it matters, but clearly it bothers you more than you are care to be aware about.

How about you read the rest of the post before replying, this is not a speed run. I've literally explained this in the post you quoted one part from. Read the other parts.

We do you the courtesy of reading YOUR stuff.

[Triceron]

Bull. Shit.

Some of the magically created beings were now created with darker skin than others. THE END.

That's not "the entire world view of the fictional universe" upended.

Holy hell, that is some of the most drama-queen racist tripe I've ever heard.

Rings of Power isn't canon. Pointing out that it isn't canon isn't bullshit lol.

- - - Updated - - -

How about you read the rest of the post before replying, this is not a speed run. I've literally explained this in the post you quoted one part from. Read the other parts.

We do you the courtesy of reading YOUR stuff.

Yeah, I don't believe your bullshit at all. If you did actually read what I said then you wouldn't have assumed that black dwarves makes me uncomfortable

I literally have defended the casting choices for black dwarves in the first 40 pages of this thread. And I haven't criticized the casting choices or the creative decisions at all. Yet you came to the conclusion that for whatever reason, it 'makes me uncomfortable'. Why would you jump to this assumption if you already read my stuff? Simple answer is you didn't, and you drew conclusions that if I'm talking anything bad about Black Dwarves then I must be against it. Like, no. I'm very clear to point out that I'm pointing out that none of this applies to Tolkien's original work.

I'm making a clear distinction that the original fiction can not be changed retroactively. There is no 'magic that created beings with darker skin' in the fictional creation story of the Dwarves. It doesn't exist. And the original fiction is not beholden to the changes that an adaptation brings to the table, like Goblins and Orcs aren't different races just because Peter Jackson decided so.

I'm not sure why you're so adamant that Tolkien's original work has to change to fit a new creative change. I thought we already went over this and accepted Rings of Power as being an adaptation that is allowed to take creative liberties.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Bull. Shit.

Some of the magically created beings were now created with darker skin than others. THE END.

That's not "the entire world view of the fictional universe" upended.

Holy hell, that is some of the most drama-queen racist tripe I've ever heard.

I don’t know “black people are so inhumanly different that even if made by magic without any of the history or culture of the real world they would still be vastly different then white people” is a really convincing argument Mabye these totally not racist posters have a point and we should keep such monster out of media.

[Adamas102]

New stories can be written, new characters introduced, without shifting the universe and creating a multicultural melting pot out of every race.

This is the most telling bullshit that keeps popping up constantly.

Skin color isn’t culture.
Skin color isn’t ethnicity.

It’s the deeply ingrained (and yes, racist) notion that skin color automatically separates people socially. That’s OUR history, and it certainly doesn’t need to apply to a fantasy world that doesn’t share our unique real world history of skin color driven race relations.

Having dwarves of a full range of different skin tones (just like they have different hair color) doesn’t make them multicultural or multiethnic. Assuming that is just imprinting your own personal view of how skin color divides peoples. The same goes for elves, hobbits, and humans in Middle-earth.

[Biomega]

I don’t know “black people are so inhumanly different that even if made by magic without any of the history or culture of the real world they would still be vastly different then white people” is a really convincing argument Mabye these totally not racist posters have a point and we should keep such monster out of media.

DAMN. #mindblown

I sure hope someone doesn't come along and points out that black people aren't in the original material, though. That'd REALLY shake my confidence.

[Triceron]

This is the most telling bullshit that keeps popping up constantly.

Skin color isn’t culture.
Skin color isn’t ethnicity.

It’s the deeply ingrained (and yes, racist) notion that skin color automatically separates people socially. That’s OUR history, and it certainly doesn’t need to apply to a fantasy world that doesn’t share our unique real world history of skin color driven race relations.

Having dwarves of a full range of different skin tones (just like they have different hair color) doesn’t make them multicultural or multiethnic. Assuming that is just imprinting your own personal view of how skin color divides peoples. The same goes for elves, hobbits, and humans in Middle-earth.

Er, no. Not at all.

Skin color ABSOLUTELY separates people socially in Middle Earth, and is the very reason why Southrons, Haradrim and Easterlings are not merely a melting pot of multiculturism that is indistinguishable from any other Human cultures.

The argument works both ways, and is integral to making a point of why it matters. Middle Earth makes those distinctions within its own fiction.


You can make an argument that an adaptation does not have to adhere to those rules, and I will happily agree with you. But you can't merely pretend that this isn't how the original fiction depicted various races and cultures.

[Biomega]

Rings of Power isn't canon. Pointing out that it isn't canon isn't bullshit lol.

And it's also not what I called bullshit on.

Is there some reading deficiency at work here, or are you just being Dishonest Dan today?

I'm making a clear distinction that the original fiction can not be changed retroactively.

And I'm pointing out that "black dwarves could have worked in the original and changed nothing, you know" DOESN'T mean the same thing as "let's go back and rewrite the original to have black dwarves in it!".

Which I've had to say twice now, in the probably vain hope that it sinks in.

I'm not sure why you're so adamant that Tolkien's original work has to change to fit a new creative change.

Me neither. The confusion probably stems from the fact I NEVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT ANYWHERE, EVER. It's understandable.

[Triceron]

And I'm pointing out that "black dwarves could have worked in the original and changed nothing, you know" DOESN'T mean the same thing as "let's go back and rewrite the original to have black dwarves in it!".

Which I've had to say twice now, in the probably vain hope that it sinks in.

That merely makes it an adaptation with creative liberties implied.

And like I said, I have no problem with that. So I don't even know why you're bothering using this example. If your point isn't about changing the original fiction and you're merely saying that the story would work the same if the races/skin tones were swapped out, then I have nothing to disagree here. That is literally the definition of an adaptation.

Throne of Blood is a Kurosawa adaptation of Macbeth with an all-Japanese cast. I have absolutely no problems with this because it's an adaptation and presents itself as an adaptation.

[Adamas102]

J. R. R. Tolkien was a Rawlinson and Bosworth Professor of Anglo-Saxon and then afterwards a Merton Professor of English Language and Literature. Nothing in either of those fields of study of English literature would suggest mythologies and languages tied to Africa, Asia, the Pacific, Americas or anywhere else. As such his imagining of dwarves, gnomes, Elves and other such fantasy creatures would be from that European tradition.

Perhaps you should rewatch that video you linked a few pages back. You know, the one where he struck down the idea that the Two Trees of Valinor were based on Yggdrasil of Norse mythology and instead were inspired by the Trees of Sun and Moon in India.

And how his inspiration for dwarves drew from a variety of sources, not just those of Northern Europe. From the “warlike” Jews of the Levant (pre-middle ages) to the Romani people and their use of secret language.

And of course his letters that detailed the clothing of the Numenoreans to most resemble those of the ancient Egyptians.

Atlantis was also an important source for Tolkien’s Numenor, it’s roots going all the way back to Plato (Ancient Greece) who suggested that the lost city existed near the Strait of Gibraltar between Europe and Africa.

So no, Tolkien didn’t limit himself to Northern European mythology. He was an educated and worldly man who drew from a great variety of sources.

[Biomega]

That merely makes it an adaptation with creative liberties implied.

Like, you know, ANY ADAPTATION EVER.

No adaptation is 100% accurate. Ever.

I have absolutely no problems with this because it's an adaptation and presents itself as an adaptation.

As opposed to this, which presents itself as... what, exactly?

Is this just a terminological quibble about the word "adaptation" or something?