Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

The problem with this whole debate over "creative liberty" is that this is a two edged sword. If some other company down the road does a different adaptation of the second age and decides to portray dwarves and elves differently then who is "right"? How can they all be correct? The point of cannon is that it is supposed to be the definitive answer on these things so that everyone is following the same blueprint.

That's flawed thinking, because there is no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong' when dealing with any adaptation. There is zero way any adaptation to be 100% faithful to text, especially when there are ambiguities such as the complete lack of description of what Elves or Dwarves would actually look like.

Like the pointed tips of Elf ears? Not in the original text. Elves are described to look so similar to Men that they could be confused for them, and their eyes and voices are their only distinguishing features. By this measure, no modern visual adaptation of Middle Earth's Elves is 'right'. But that doesn't make it right or wrong, because adaptations are free to depict Elves with pointed ears, to the point where it's become widely accepted.

If you're a stickler to your own definitions, then all modern visual adaptations of Tolkien's Elves is wrong. Does it even matter? I don't think anyone would think of an Elf any other way. The creative liberty has become a part of how people recognize Tolkien's Elves. I'd say the same with modern depictions of Balrogs with actual wings.

The original canon isn't so much a blueprint as it is a guideline. Text does not translate to the big screen, that is why we're talking about adaptations.

[InfiniteCharger]

Why is it problematic? The current showrunners think the aesthetics of a racially homogenous cast isn't a good enough reason to deny certain roles to actors based on their skin colour. People in the future might feel differently.

If the creator wrote it that way and nobody was complaining then why change it? And this goes for anything not just skin color. Tolkien is not some obscure author who wrote a lesser known novel that Amazon is trying to make popular. Tolkien is one of, if not the, best selling book of all time and it not obscure or unknown and popular all over the world. This argument is basically trying to claim that Tolkien's work as it already existed in written format wasn't 'good enough' as it already was and that all these changes are require or necessary to make it better. That is supreme arrogance on the part of showrunners and producers who have never produced a thing of their own, written or otherwise and can only gain fame for attaching themselves to the work of someone else. The idea that 'denying people jobs' is the reason for this change is BS. They are doing it to try and basically claim that all white people in stories is racist which it is not, no more than all Asians in stories is racist when it is not. In order for that argument to hold water, any story that features a racially homogenous cast should be changed, but I don't see this being applied to stories from Asia with all Asian casts, stories from Bollywood with all Indian casts, stories from Africa with all African casts and so forth. Why is it only European stories that are singled out for this treatment? Not to mention that this basic idea that homogenous white casts is bad, means that Tolkien was racist for writing his story that way, which is a contradiction. Why adapt the story of a racist to begin with if it is racist? That cannot be fixed by "casting". This idea of trying to attach yourself to something already popular and make up nonsensical arguments for changing it as if that is going to be "better' than the original to justify it is the problem.

Future people might also choose to portray characters like Aragorn in a lore accurate way by making him beardless, or put the Numenoreans in the canonical mail armour instead of plate. Have Glorfindel rescue Frodo from the Nine. That doesn't mean the Peter Jackson films (which never had the blessing of Christopher Tolkien or the Tolkien Estate btw) are problematic, just that he decided to go against the text to make it appeal to a modern cinema audience.

Aragorn is not part of this story. None of the changes made by Amazon for this show has to be respected by anybody other than Amazon because they are not canon, in that they are not Tolkien. And if you are going to argue that it is OK to change Tolkien for whatever reason, then by definition you admit it is no longer Tolkien's world or story. And by making so much noise to justify going against Tolkien to make up whatever it is you want to insert into Tolkien, you basically have set the precedent that anybody can do whatever they want down the road just like Amazon did. But why do this if you are so intent on telling a different story which is not like what the actual author wrote? At that point you may as well just make a new IP and stop calling it Tolkien, but that means your work would succeed or fail on its own merits instead of being propped up by the prestige of being attached to Tolkien. And this is more an issue with those holding the rights to said IP as to what they will allow and what they won't. But at this point whatever Amazon is doing is not Tolkien and does not have to be followed by anybody else as not being cannon, meaning not literally what Tolkien wrote. That goes for time compression, new non canon characters, how existing characters are portrayed and so forth. Amazon cannot give itself exclusive authority to do this and demand others respect their version when they didn't respect the original version of the author or other versions made by other studios.

BTW having the skin tones of the actors mixed in the same way they are in modern society doesn't mean the setting is "representing" modern society, in the same way an all-white cast doesn't mean they are "representing" pre-WW2 British society.

I am going by what the showrunners actually said. So you must be talking to them then because that is literally what the showrunners, producers and actors have been saying. And none of that has anything to do with Tolkien. Your attempt to claim otherwise is just contradicting what you said previously which is that the showrunners didn't think a racially homogenous cast wasn't a good idea. So at that point it doesn't matter what the author originally wrote now does it? They are going to do what they want and if that is the case, then why didn't they cast more Asians, Eskimos, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans and Pakistanis? There are a lot of Pakistanis in Britain and why don't they have any leading roles in this if that is the point they are making?

[Triceron]

You can't make this shit up. Actual domesticated herd animals barking on command so they get to consume this slop.
*Fan complains about the pre-screening, but says it was worth the troubles and the screening was magnificent*

I think I need to lay down for a while. This is bleak.

Oh the irony.

[Festisio]

Despite the various 4 * reviews out there (mostly given I expect out of gratitude for being able to attend the premiere), I expect this 1* review is more on-point.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...ngs-Power.html

[tikcol]

Despite the various 4 * reviews out there (mostly given I expect out of gratitude for being able to attend the premiere), I expect this 1* review is more on-point.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...ngs-Power.html

It's a mess and that's to be expected for anyone that has been paying attention to anything regarding this series.

[BigToast]

Despite the various 4 * reviews out there (mostly given I expect out of gratitude for being able to attend the premiere), I expect this 1* review is more on-point.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...ngs-Power.html

Congratz on being the only person ever to refer to DailyMail as "on point."

[Orby]

If you are sensitive to spoilers watch at your own risk, I would believe its spoiler free regardless, but you know how the internet is when it comes to spoilers, everything is a spoiler , especially if you do not want to know anythign before the show is out, for everyone else, knock yourself out.



For me personally I will not watch this as I have been avoiding anything related to the show, be it this thread ( for the last few weeks ), as well as any news going into it, I want a clear mind before watching.

[Celement]

It's a mess and that's to be expected for anyone that has been paying attention to anything regarding this series.

I think what always gets me is why pay a ton of money for an IP only to rewrite it into something completely different?

You can argue brand power but given what they paid for it even with Hollywood accounting I doubt they are gonna male it back much less turn a profit.

[Triceron]

I think what always gets me is why pay a ton of money for an IP only to rewrite it into something completely different?

You can argue brand power but given what they paid for it even with Hollywood accounting I doubt they are gonna male it back much less turn a profit.

They don't really have much to maneuver without liscence for Silmarillion, IMO. They're kinda hamstrung into adapting whatever is in the appendices, and frankly their decision to take it in a different direction is sensible from a production standpoint. I mean, all they care about it is banking on the franchise name anyways. It'd be no different than all the liscenced LOTR videogames that aren't based on the movies.

[Rennadrel]

They don't really have much to maneuver without liscence for Silmarillion, IMO. They're kinda hamstrung into adapting whatever is in the appendices, and frankly their decision to take it in a different direction is sensible from a production standpoint. I mean, all they care about it is banking on the franchise name anyways. It'd be no different than all the liscenced LOTR videogames that aren't based on the movies.

True, but if that is the case, I am sure you would agree that they should have found a more experienced production team instead of a bunch of nobodies and not blackballed Tom Shippey who was a consultant on the project until they canned him for disliking how they were doing things. If they really cared about making something good that people will latch on to, spending money on the aspects that matter like costumes, acting talent and good writers and producers, makes a lot more sense than pissing it all away on CGI. If Peter Jackson could do with 100 million per film and a literal all-star cast of actors as well as some unknowns who really showed their chops in those films, there's no excuse Amazon couldn't do it for a TV series. I can't even say I know of anyone in the cast, they might as well be literally who's to me and that doesn't bode well in my opinion. One can make the argument that the majority of the LOTR cast weren't A-list actors, but most of them were all established by the time FOTR came out.

[Kumorii]

They don't really have much to maneuver without liscence for Silmarillion, IMO. They're kinda hamstrung into adapting whatever is in the appendices, and frankly their decision to take it in a different direction is sensible from a production standpoint. I mean, all they care about it is banking on the franchise name anyways. It'd be no different than all the liscenced LOTR videogames that aren't based on the movies.

It's sensible, problem was that they said it wouldn't be.

[Triceron]

True, but if that is the case, I am sure you would agree that they should have found a more experienced production team instead of a bunch of nobodies and not blackballed Tom Shippey who was a consultant on the project until they canned him for disliking how they were doing things. If they really cared about making something good that people will latch on to, spending money on the aspects that matter like costumes, acting talent and good writers and producers, makes a lot more sense than pissing it all away on CGI. If Peter Jackson could do with 100 million per film and a literal all-star cast of actors as well as some unknowns who really showed their chops in those films, there's no excuse Amazon couldn't do it for a TV series. I can't even say I know of anyone in the cast, they might as well be literally who's to me and that doesn't bode well in my opinion. One can make the argument that the majority of the LOTR cast weren't A-list actors, but most of them were all established by the time FOTR came out.

To be honest, I don't know where all that money is being spent at all. It's clear to me they just wanna do their own thing with Rings of Power, and frankly that's up to them to do with their money.

We're well past any hope of this actually being close-to-canon, so I'm not sure if there's any point left in debating whether this should have or not, regardless of whatever had been said about faithfulness to books and whatnot. If the show is a good watch, I'm all for it. If it's terrible, then I'll probably still hate-watch it for the lols, because it's a big enough show that people will be talking about it like last season of GoT.

[unfunnymeme]

You know, most people don't give a shit about whether they canonically had darker skin or not. Most people aren't basement dwellers who can't accept other interpretations of others work.

Most people are mindless cattle that don't actually care about anything but consuming? Yeah, I can see that.
Any person that cannot or refuses to appreciate the canonical integrity of a universe is hard to even call human life. It's like going to a fucking museum and thinking everything would look better re-painted or defaced. It's despicable.

Oh the irony.

Again, the opinion of an actual subhuman on something like this is meaningless.
Everyone involved in that indignity is genuinely wretched.

Infracted.

[s_bushido]

Most people are mindless cattle that don't actually care about anything but consuming?

Hipsters went out of style a decade ago. No one cares that you think you're above it all.

It's like going to a fucking museum and thinking everything would look better re-painted or defaced. It's despicable.

It's actually not like that in the slightest. Because the originals still exist for you to pretend to enjoy all you want. Even if this show turns out to be as terrible as the bigots have already convinced themselves it is, that has absolutely no impact on Tolkien's work itself.

[Triceron]

Again, the opinion of an actual subhuman on something like this is meaningless.
Everyone involved in that indignity is genuinely wretched.

"Ignore their opinion when it's not convenient to my argument."

lol

[unfunnymeme]

"Ignore their opinion when it's not convenient to my argument."

lol

Would you ask a cow its opinion on fine art?

It's actually not like that in the slightest.

It's exactly like that, because these cretins own the rights to it now.
And no, I don't care much for the original LoTR movies these days. If something isn't a one-to-one retelling, it's not good, no matter how well written or acted. But at least Jackson understood that he was adapting something and maintained some small amount of respect for the universe.

[Triceron]

Would you ask a cow its opinion on fine art?

Nope. Which is why I'm not asking for yours lol

[s_bushido]

It's exactly like that, because these cretins own the rights to it now.

"Owning the rights" doesn't mean the originals suddenly disappear. And the Jackson trilogy isn't "the original." Obviously...

If something isn't a one-to-one retelling, it's not good, no matter how well written or acted.

That's a completely useless standard. Literally nothing is going to be a one-to-one retelling when adapting it from book to screen. Especially not something like this, where they have very little material to work with in the first place.

[InfiniteCharger]

That's flawed thinking, because there is no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong' when dealing with any adaptation. There is zero way any adaptation to be 100% faithful to text, especially when there are ambiguities such as the complete lack of description of what Elves or Dwarves would actually look like.

Like the pointed tips of Elf ears? Not in the original text. Elves are described to look so similar to Men that they could be confused for them, and their eyes and voices are their only distinguishing features. By this measure, no modern visual adaptation of Middle Earth's Elves is 'right'. But that doesn't make it right or wrong, because adaptations are free to depict Elves with pointed ears, to the point where it's become widely accepted.

If you're a stickler to your own definitions, then all modern visual adaptations of Tolkien's Elves is wrong. Does it even matter? I don't think anyone would think of an Elf any other way. The creative liberty has become a part of how people recognize Tolkien's Elves. I'd say the same with modern depictions of Balrogs with actual wings.

The original canon isn't so much a blueprint as it is a guideline. Text does not translate to the big screen, that is why we're talking about adaptations.

I said it was a two edged sword, meaning that if one studio can make changes, then so can others, which means they don't all have to match each other... That was the whole point, meaning one studio cannot give their "version" more importance and significance over any other studios 'version' as they all have the right to make their own changes for whatever reason. But you cannot have one depiction of something be vastly different than another depiction and not acknowledge that both of them cannot be equally 'valid' as either one or both are purely creative decisions and therefore not canon, regardless of the reasons for the change. Tolkien did not intend for his stories to become some cinematic universe of various stories and content that only loosely are connected to each other as being "Tolkien" while drastically varying in theme and character. That is very different from Marvel and DC who are the ones making these kinds of changes to IP that they own, which basically boils down to remaking and reinventing characters and stories that have been around for years. Tolkien specifically stated that is not what he indented for his work to be.

A good example of diametrically opposing story changes would be something like whether Galadriel is married to Celeborn before the 2nd age or not. Either she was or she wasn't. It cannot be both and equally be 'right' according to the source material or according to being stories in the same universe. One is objectively wrong and one is objectively right in that context, regardless of whether a studio has the "rights" to deviate from that canon if they so desire (or whether people like it or dislike it). Doesn't change the facts of what is in the source material as a literal single set of events, character traits and actions over time.

[Dhrizzle]

If the creator wrote it that way and nobody was complaining then why change it?

They're changing it because they think it is more important to choose the correct actor regardless of their skin colour, Tolkien didn't have to worry about getting the right actors so he could write his characters to look however they want.

This argument is basically trying to claim that Tolkien's work as it already existed in written format wasn't 'good enough' as it already was and that all these changes are require or necessary to make it better.

No it isn't because books are different to TV shows. Saying Tolkien's work would have been "better" if he had cast the best actors regardless of skin colour is nonsense.

The idea that 'denying people jobs' is the reason for this change is BS. They are doing it to try and basically claim that all white people in stories is racist which it is not

That's a stupid argument.

no more than all Asians in stories is racist when it is not. In order for that argument to hold water, any story that features a racially homogenous cast should be changed,

Not if the people casting for the show think that skin colour is an important enough factor in the story.

Not to mention that this basic idea that homogenous white casts is bad, means that Tolkien was racist for writing his story that way, which is a contradiction.

Not even remotely true, Tolkien wasn't denying an actor a chance to play a role based on their skin colour with no good narrative reason.

Aragorn is not part of this story. None of the changes made by Amazon for this show has to be respected by anybody other than Amazon because they are not canon, in that they are not Tolkien. And if you are going to argue that it is OK to change Tolkien for whatever reason, then by definition you admit it is no longer Tolkien's world or story. And by making so much noise to justify going against Tolkien to make up whatever it is you want to insert into Tolkien, you basically have set the precedent that anybody can do whatever they want down the road just like Amazon did.

I brought up Aragorn and the other examples because there has already been a very popular adaptation of Tolkien's work by a director called Peter Jackson. It made numerous changes for aesthetic purposes or to better serve the movie-going audiences of the time and it didn't seem to do any harm, and by your argument it set the precedent that anyone can change anything.

But why do this if you are so intent on telling a different story which is not like what the actual author wrote? At that point you may as well just make a new IP and stop calling it Tolkien, but that means your work would succeed or fail on its own merits instead of being propped up by the prestige of being attached to Tolkien. And this is more an issue with those holding the rights to said IP as to what they will allow and what they won't. But at this point whatever Amazon is doing is not Tolkien and does not have to be followed by anybody else as not being cannon, meaning not literally what Tolkien wrote. That goes for time compression, new non canon characters, how existing characters are portrayed and so forth. Amazon cannot give itself exclusive authority to do this and demand others respect their version when they didn't respect the original version of the author or other versions made by other studios.

The main reason Amazon are doing this is because the Tolkien Estate, at the time headed by the author's son Christopher, asked production companies to bid for the rights to make some sort of TV series. It's Tolkien in so far as it is using the framework Tolkien made for the characters, events and nature of Middle-earth during the Second Age with cooperation from the inheritors of Tolkien's estate. The reason the showrunners are doing it is Tolkien created an incredibly detailed and enthralling mythology that is fertile ground for "other hands and minds" to add colour and drama.

I am going by what the showrunners actually said. So you must be talking to them then because that is literally what the showrunners, producers and actors have been saying.

You'll have to show me the quotes you mean because the ones I have seen say they are happy that the cast will be reflecting the people you see in modern society, but it doesn't mean that the fictional society is representing modern society. If they bring in situations where people are being discriminated against due to their skin colour, or make part of the story allegorical to current social issues (bearing in mind Tolkien's description of the difference between allegory and inspiration) then I'd agree they're taking a wild swing away from Middle-earth, but I won't be able to judge that until I've seen the show.

why didn't they cast more Asians, Eskimos, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans and Pakistanis? There are a lot of Pakistanis in Britain and why don't they have any leading roles in this if that is the point they are making?

How many Asians. Eskimos, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans and Pakistanis applied to audition for roles in the series? How many were better suited for the role than the actors who will be playing them?