Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Sialina]

Not true.

It's not worth arguing about either because people will see and project what they want on Tolkien's work regardless of what Tolkien and his son say about his intentions.



This is such a ridiculous argument that I don't even know how to respond to it. Black Panther exists because there was no African representation in American comics. The notion that England, the creator of the largest imperial force that spanned across the entire globe, lacks representation in anything is flatly absurd. Again, it's a horrible comparison so, please, leave it alone already.



I don't know what you're disagreeing with here or what the point you're trying to make is. You and the previous poster seem to be insisting that rules set within a story need to be followed or it will break immersion. The races of elves, dwarves, hobbits, and orcs are entirely made up by Tolkien. Whatever evolutionary traits they would have are entirely up to the creator. Tolkien used no source material to base them on.

Per Tolkien:


The man did not set the rules for the evolutionary traits of the fictional people in his story. His descriptions of these groups were vague unless certain details were absolutely necessary. If seeing a black dwarf breaks the immersion of the story for you, it's because you're projecting your own rules of what these groups can or cannot be on to the story yourself. You readily accept that plants like potatoes, tomatoes, and tobacco exist in Middle-Earth despite being unavailable in Europe until the 1400s, do you not? I don't see anyone making a big deal about those rules being broken in this thread. If you're going to insist the story follow European history and tradition then that should upset you as well. I hope you're able to see what I'm getting at here.

Lets break your post down a little bit

First point, some scholars disagree with the notion that he set out to create a deep mythology, even tho it's stated in the letters, lets just say experts disagree and we disagree.

Second part
I'm just going to leave a small note here that Africa, Asia, India and any other place you can imagine indeed have their own movies comics and other forms of entertainment, I'm sure you know as much.

Third part
Tolkien thought England lacked ancient myths, that doesn't have anything to do with any of the present issues you brought up.

Lastly
Have you read Rage of dragons by Evan Winter? It's one of my favorite fantasy books. Only a few characters are described, things described are usually if they have no hair, long hair or something else, if they are tall or heavy set, and for every character their shade of dark is described, Princess Seiora is described as having skin as dark as a starless night, the main character is somewhat lighter brown. Kellen Okar and Uduak are both big men, with medium dark skin and shaved hair.
Just because the rest of the cast isn't described would you give yourself the right to do with them as you please?

[Yossarian]

God this show is terribile
Bad, bad, bad writing
The acceptance letter to Harv... to the builders' guild was beyond cringe
And now we know that the true identity of the goofy giant is mr Bean, I guess

[Triceron]

Kinda surprised this segment hit on all the notes I had about the show.

I have a couple disagreements with them on certain points, like I actually enjoyed Elrond and the actor and his arc, but the manage to hit on most of the things I thought were off about the series so far.

[rhorle]

But we don't know that, in fact with Isildur we are very close to the 3rd age, as Isildur is alive in the show and he lives into the 3rd age at some 200 years old. So at this point Galadriel is like 5000 years old, she should be very far along in her journey to being LoTR Galadriel, not this character who barely resembles her. We are talking about Elves, and this Galadriel is being treated like a human, with human development. I just, ugh, it feels nothing like Tolkien and more like some generic other fantasy with elves and dwarfs and "not hobbits".

The show has changed the time line of events so it is silly to expect Galadriel to act as if she is 5,000 years old when the Rings of Power haven't even been forged yet. I don't recall them mentioning dates or ages on the show to get a reference. It is silly to hold her, or any character, to a standard from Tolkien when the ACU has clearly diverged in major ways.

[downnola]

I think the point of his message was they were created with the same intentions in mind - to create a mythology that represents a culture where it did not previously exist.

Tolkien's motivations for building Middle Earth have been attributed to him wanting to build a mythology around Northern Europe (England) and tell stories that interested him all the while. That is what lead him to create a universe, and spend time on describing settings, and culture down to the details like what food they ate and what languages they spoke.

It doesn't really do with what England was lacking at the time, it was about the source of creativity springing from a desire to build a new mythology around a particular culture.

Black Panther is one character and Wakanda is one nation created for an already existing Marvel universe. Stan Lee and Kirby realized that their comics lacked African representation so they remedied that by creating Black Panther and his background. Tolkien's Middle-Earth is much more than that.

His first collection of short stories, The Book of Lost Tales, initially started out as a "mythology for England" but that was abandoned for grander mythology that wasn't limited to English culture by the time Lord of the Rings was written. We're talking Indian, Byzantine, Egypt, Nordic, and Slavic cultures. If anything, the biggest influence on his work was his Roman Catholicism (his words, not mine), which I'm sorry to say is not a product of English culture at all. Kind of ironic considering how Europe and America portray Jesus as a white man with long hippy hair and a goatee when in reality he was a Palestinian Jewish prophet that spent most of his time in modern-day Israel and Palestine. But I digress. Ultimately, Middle-Earth is more of an epic exercise in world-building than it is a Mythology for one nation.

[Triceron]

Black Panther is one character and Wakanda is one nation created for an already existing Marvel universe. Stan Lee and Kirby realized that their comics lacked African representation so they remedied that by creating Black Panther and his background. Tolkien's Middle-Earth is much more than that.

His first collection of short stories, The Book of Lost Tales, initially started out as a "mythology for England" but that was abandoned for grander mythology that wasn't limited to English culture by the time Lord of the Rings was written. We're talking Indian, Byzantine, Egypt, Nordic, and Slavic cultures. If anything, the biggest influence on his work was his Roman Catholicism (his words, not mine), which I'm sorry to say is not a product of English culture at all. Kind of ironic considering how Europe and America portray Jesus as a white man with long hippy hair and a goatee when in reality he was a Palestinian Jewish prophet that spent most of his time in modern-day Israel and Palestine. But I digress. Ultimately, Middle-Earth is more of an epic exercise in world-building than it is a Mythology for one nation.

Sure, but how does that make it any different from what I've explained above?

Tolkien created a new Northern European Mythology that doesn't actually take place on Earth. It's a celebration of many mythologies and cultures with Northern European setting as its focal point. Just like Wakanda is a celebration of many African cultures with 'Wakanda' as its focal point.

There's nothing mutually exclusive being implied here. No one is comparing at the level you seem to think it needs to be compared at.

[downnola]

Second part
I'm just going to leave a small note here that Africa, Asia, India and any other place you can imagine indeed have their own movies comics and other forms of entertainment, I'm sure you know as much.

Are you under the impression that only white Americans consume movies, comics, and other forms of entertainment intended for American audiences?

Third part
Tolkien thought England lacked ancient myths, that doesn't have anything to do with any of the present issues you brought up.

Middle-Earth is not England.

Lastly
Have you read Rage of dragons by Evan Winter? It's one of my favorite fantasy books. Only a few characters are described, things described are usually if they have no hair, long hair or something else, if they are tall or heavy set, and for every character their shade of dark is described, Princess Seiora is described as having skin as dark as a starless night, the main character is somewhat lighter brown. Kellen Okar and Uduak are both big men, with medium dark skin and shaved hair.
Just because the rest of the cast isn't described would you give yourself the right to do with them as you please?

No, I haven't read Rage of Dragons. I don't know enough about the story or the author's intent when writing the characters to have an informed opinion about it. I do see that you're attempting to catch me in a double standard, though. I'll save you the trouble and freely admit I have double standards when it comes to representation in American popular culture. Why? Because I find it irritating that people want to gatekeep non-white casting out of popular franchises based on spurious and disingenuous reasons. Do you live in a world where you only interact with white people, and is that something you seriously want to be reflected in the media you consume? Unless we're talking about casting someone like Mahershala Ali as Bill Clinton in a movie, I don't see why skin color should be a factor when casting for fantasy films. I'd use any excuse I could find to cast Danai Gurira, Thandiwe Newton, or Michael Mando in a movie where possible. They're amazing actors so give me more.

Idris Elba as James Bond? Sign me right up for that shit.
Giancarlo Esposito as Professor X in the MCU? Take my goddamn money already.

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Sure, but how does that make it any different from what I've explained above?

Tolkien created a new Northern European Mythology that doesn't actually take place on Earth. It's a celebration of many mythologies and cultures with Northern European setting as its focal point. Just like Wakanda is a celebration of many African cultures with 'Wakanda' as its focal point.

There's nothing mutually exclusive being implied here. No one is comparing at the level you seem to think it needs to be compared at.

We're only talking about Black Panther because another poster asked if I would care if white actors were cast as Wakandans. If it's not extremely obvious how mind-blowingly stupid that comparison is then I don't know what more I can say on the subject. I'm certainly sick of talking about it, that I can tell you.

[Biomega]

Giancarlo Esposito as Professor X in the MCU? Take my goddamn money already.

This is my new favorite thing.

Hot damn that would be awesome.

[downnola]

This is my new favorite thing.

Hot damn that would be awesome.

Right? Patrick Stewart was amazing as Professor X. I even liked James McAvoy as the younger version of him. But Giancarlo would absolutely nail that role.

[InfiniteCharger]

Trolls were never pinkish. They are generally green and blue - then they added a purple skin tone to make night elves come from them in a lore shift we would later see many of.

But they authored their lore, so they have every right to change it at any point. We know what destroying your consistency and changing your lore does though, even when you own it and have full rights to do so - it destroys its integrity and people are far less inclined to follow or buy your shit because it’s meaningless even in your own fanrasy world a few episodes or years down the line.

It’s different with Tolkein, this isn’t some obscure poorly written half realised world, every detail is meticulously placed - there are many gaps, but you should at least not change the ones there and certainly not so drastically as to basically be something else.

At least not if you want to capture and build on the 10s if not 100s of millions or more who have loved Tolkein’s work.

They loved Tolkein’s work, what arrogance to think you can change it and do better. They fell in love with Tolkein’s work, they want to see that or a faithful and truthful version not your substitute you think is superior because you are ticking the political and socio religious boxes of your day you think are great or you think everyone loves (which usually is just everyone in your bubble).

This is not to say the show doesn’t have merit. But if it is not Tolkein or at least faithful to it, why call it that?

Hollywood lot are truly in their own bubble totally out of touch with the very masses they are trying to make more billions out of - this approach may work for some franchises that don’t care about endless re-imaginings of their shallow bit part fiction.

You really shouldn’t be taking one of the most detailed fictional works in history, re writing your own version and expecting everyone who loved the original to love yours.

It may work for the Eternals or Wonder Woman, but Tolkein designed and imagined an entire world, not a super hero version of 21st century Earth.

People are bound to notice.

Don't disagree. You must not have seen most of that discussion.

[Triceron]

So any theories on Sauron's appearance?

Is he the Stranger? Adar? Halbrand?

I think Sauron is still gonna be a secret till later, and these are all just different characters. Lots of red herrings. I think Halbrand might end up being one of the 9 though, possibly even the Witch King of Angmar.

[Mace]

Putting aside cynical reasons like branding and name recognition value, we are ONLY ever talking about degrees of faithfulness in ANY adaptation.

You put it out there that "it isn't Tolkien" like that was some obvious, self-evident truth. But it's not. Nothing "is Tolkien" except things actually written by Tolkien. What you're talking about is a SUBJECTIVE standard that pretends to have gatekeeping powers, deciding what is and is not Tolkien based on some kind of hypothetical fandom and its acceptance or rejection of things.

But that's not how it works. There is no cohesion here, no consensus, no objective measuring of "Tolkien-ness". Self-proclaimed fans do not get to decide what does and does not qualify as "being Tolkien" for other people; they couldn't even all agree on it if you asked them. All you're doing is going from something very general like "the Jackson LotR films were generally well regarded by audiences" to "therefore that adaption 'is Tolkien'" without real justification, based solely on a notion of acceptance that you subscribe to purely for the reason that it coincides with your own preference.

Never mind the fact that plenty of "Tolkien fans" consider some of Jacksons alterations to the plot unacceptably "not Tolkien", it's not what YOU think and you can retreat into the power of a perceived majority, therefore YOUR position on it is legitimized and can be posted as truth.

And in much the same way, you feel you are now entitled to be the arbiter of "Tolkien-ness" for this show - and in much the same way, you actually don't have any more justification for that than you did for the films.

Don't misunderstand: I've been pretty clear about my own dislike for this show. I barely made it through Ep3 and it's unlikely I'll watch Ep4. The show doesn't work for me for all sorts of reasons. But it supposedly "not being Tolkien" isn't one of them, because that's not a reason - it's a smokescreen for arrogantly asserting that you have the power to arbitrate over a literary legacy, when you don't and nobody does. (Except for the Tolkien estate, and that's in legal terms not in terms of creative judgement.)

It's not Tolkein in the spirit of his writing - adaptations do change things, but they went way off into something else.


These aren't Tolkein's ethos, values, or foundation for the lord of the rings

And while some things were good, may were awful - the elves for example, were awful, they basically come off no different from men which is a far cry from how the Silmaralion or the novels actually frame them -


Look, I watched it, and as a generic fantasy , I enjoyed, as a Tolkein world - it is very disappointing in every area apart from the scenery visuals of the land or cities which looks awesome.


It felt like a cheap knock off of Jackson's movies in terms of acting, characterisation, costumes.

Finally only Galadriel (not very likeable), or the black elf (quite likeable) seem to actually feel like elves.

What comes off as elves, doesn't match the description in Tolkein's, the magic and the @other race feeling you got when the Fellowship reaches Rivendell in the movie, Arwen, Galadriel and Legolas - not to mention - they felt special - and noldor high elves are fighting a Troll, and they're just tossed around like men - nothing special. . I'm still waiting to see how incredible the Numenorans are - having a pretty city doesn't make you remarkable, it should enhance a remarkable not be the only thing remarkable about the people.

So far, they seem terrible, with no decent explanation why, sure the explanation will come, but i'm already very skeptical

[Dhrizzle]

But if it is not Tolkein or at least faithful to it, why call it that?

Because while it isn't faithful to the timeline Tolkien sketched for the Second Age it is very much set in Arda with the themes and nature of the world intact.

[Triceron]

It's not Tolkein in the psirit of his writing - adapataions do change things, but they went way off into something else.


These aren't Tolkein's ethos, values, or foundation for the lord of the rings

And while some things were good, may were awful - the elves for example, were awful, they basically come off no different from men which is af ar cary from how the Silmaralion or the novels actually frame them -

Best you just treat this as a standalone spinoff on the level of 'Shadows of Mordor/War'.

[bledgor]

So any theories on Sauron's appearance?

Is he the Stranger? Adar? Halbrand?

I think Sauron is still gonna be a secret till later, and these are all just different characters. Lots of red herrings. I think Halbrand might end up being one of the 9 though, possibly even the Witch King of Angmar.

99% certain that Halbrand is Sauron, they will try to bait others but heard strong rumors it is him.

[Dhrizzle]

Think the latest episode was a bit slow at times. I also feel like Galadriels character is different from what I'd expect of someone who has lived as long as she has. I do think there are some great characters though and I'm still interested.

Elves can remain "youthful" and impetuous much longer than humans. In one of his schemes for ageing Elves Galadriel would have stayed in her "Years of Youth" until around the start of the Third Age when she would enter her "Years of Maturity." At the time of LotR she would be about to enter her "Years of Fading," the Elven equivalent of old age.

[bledgor]

Elves can remain "youthful" and impetuous much longer than humans. In one of his schemes for ageing Elves Galadriel would have stayed in her "Years of Youth" until around the start of the Third Age when she would enter her "Years of Maturity." At the time of LotR she would be about to enter her "Years of Fading," the Elven equivalent of old age.

The thing is it doesn't work when she is older than basically every other elf alive/Gil-Galad who act infinitely more mature than her. Not to mention at this point she is roughly ~4000 years old. Also her fading isn't because of age but because of her choice to not take the ring/losing the power of the ring Nenya IIRC. Not to mention the 3rd age is only ~3000 years, which is a bit more than half her years of youth (which is in part why I believe that scheme was never made story).

[Mace]

Skin tone is hardly a big deal when they are changing the timeline. It is silly how much focus it gets when "big deal" changes actually exist and were done actually tell a different story rather then just for cosmetic reasons. Since it is just cosmetic it seems silly to even try to claim 10 to 100 million only love Tolkien's work because of skin tone and that not adhereing to such won't build on or capture their interest.

Yeh, it's very different - in so many ways, it doesn't feel Tolkein. Peter Jackson's movies were not a 100% faithful adaptation, but they go the essence and feel of the lord of the Rings far closer. It was believably middle earth not just in appearnace but in characterisation, etc - this one isn't ..


People are more hung up on skin colour which to be hones t is one of the least offending thing

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So any theories on Sauron's appearance?

Is he the Stranger? Adar? Halbrand?

I think Sauron is still gonna be a secret till later, and these are all just different characters. Lots of red herrings. I think Halbrand might end up being one of the 9 though, possibly even the Witch King of Angmar.

I thought Halbrand was Sauron.

But they are making it hard to care. hehe

[Dhrizzle]

That's part of it, but i think its that combined with her story having to be alongside the stories of other people with shorter lifespans.

I mean, if episode 1 was all about Galadriel's earlier years, growing up with her brother, witnessing some of the horrific events of the trees and the war and stuff, and him dieing and her deciding to go be a badass, and then in episode 2 we get...well the current episode 1 more or less, I think people would be more on board with her.

The trouble is they weren't given carte blanche to use Firsf Age stuff, I suspect what we did see was allowed by the Tolkien Estate in a severely restricted way which is why we only got an allusion to the Kinslaying and a shadow of Morgoth with no Ungoliant killing the trees. Even Finrod's manner of death is only hinted at by some wounds on his body.

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You forgot them also conveniently being found by Elendil/Numenoreans in the middle of the ocean, Elendil who is perhaps the only Numenorean that would be willing to take her back to Numenor and take them to meet the queen.

Almost like the powers that Galadriel said were at work were in fact at work. I wonder if they're forbidden from using the names Ulmo or Ossë by the Estate.

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This is my new favorite thing.

Hot damn that would be awesome.

Right? Patrick Stewart was amazing as Professor X. I even liked James McAvoy as the younger version of him. But Giancarlo would absolutely nail that role.

Yeah, Professor X is more likely Gus Frink from Breaking Bad than a lot of people realise. All smiles for the public but he still keeps a murder-squad on standby and is using a school to turn children into soldiers for his paramilitary group.

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So any theories on Sauron's appearance?

Is he the Stranger? Adar? Halbrand?

I think Sauron is still gonna be a secret till later, and these are all just different characters. Lots of red herrings. I think Halbrand might end up being one of the 9 though, possibly even the Witch King of Angmar.

I'm hoping all three.

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The thing is it doesn't work when she is older than basically every other elf alive/Gil-Galad who act infinitely more mature than her. Not to mention at this point she is roughly ~4000 years old. Also her fading isn't because of age but because of her choice to not take the ring/losing the power of the ring Nenya IIRC. Not to mention the 3rd age is only ~3000 years, which is a bit more than half her years of youth (which is in part why I believe that scheme was never made story).

Fading is definitely a part of Elven ageing that Galadriel should be hitting around the time of the War of the Ring. Tolkien had a couple of schemes worked out for the times before, in one the "Years of Youth" lasted from the end of Growth to the start of Fading. In another he has the "Years of Maturity" which for Galadriel should start around the Third Age.

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Yeh, it's very different - in so many ways, it doesn't feel Tolkein. Peter Jackson's movies were not a 100% faithful adaptation, but they go the essence and feel of the lord of the Rings far closer. It was believably middle earth not just in appearnace but in characterisation, etc - this one isn't ..

Jackson absolutely butchered some of the characters, just compare his version of Eowyn's fight against the Witch King with what Tolkien wrote, or the way the other Hobbits came to join Frodo before leaving the Shire.

[Sialina]

Are you under the impression that only white Americans consume movies, comics, and other forms of entertainment intended for American audiences?



Middle-Earth is not England.

And Wakanda isn't Africa.

No, I haven't read Rage of Dragons. I don't know enough about the story or the author's intent when writing the characters to have an informed opinion about it. I do see that you're attempting to catch me in a double standard, though. I'll save you the trouble and freely admit I have double standards when it comes to representation in American popular culture. Why? Because I find it irritating that people want to gatekeep non-white casting out of popular franchises based on spurious and disingenuous reasons. Do you live in a world where you only interact with white people, and is that something you seriously want to be reflected in the media you consume? Unless we're talking about casting someone like Mahershala Ali as Bill Clinton in a movie, I don't see why skin color should be a factor when casting for fantasy films. I'd use any excuse I could find to cast Danai Gurira, Thandiwe Newton, or Michael Mando in a movie where possible. They're amazing actors so give me more.

Idris Elba as James Bond? Sign me right up for that shit.
Giancarlo Esposito as Professor X in the MCU? Take my goddamn money already.

I'm not white, and not American, American movies are showed outside of America where compositions of people are completely different.
Idris Elba as James Bond 007? No thanks, Idris Elba as Darrington Steel 008? Very much yes please, Idris Elba is an amazing actor.

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We're only talking about Black Panther because another poster asked if I would care if white actors were cast as Wakandans. If it's not extremely obvious how mind-blowingly stupid that comparison is then I don't know what more I can say on the subject. I'm certainly sick of talking about it, that I can tell you.

I guess this is that double standard of yours speaking.