Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[BeepBoo]

Did Tolkien ever elaborate on the intricacies of elven swimming capabilities? As a person/race that was able to go on a never-ending hunt for centuries, I'd imagine they have quite impressive levels of stamina. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Elves are regarded as no more strong or physically capable than man. They're more dexterous with keener senses and stronger convictions, but not stronger or especially enduring. What centuries-long hunt are you talking about that they didn't also sleep, rest, and eat? Certainly you're not implying they went straight walking or running without any of those things?

This is your own invented exaggeration, not at all something I expressed.

Ah, so there might have existed a way they showed us these things that didn't garner the critique, the same way plenty of other things about the show haven't garnered any noteworthy critique. Cool. If you know that, why bother saying what you did? To highlight that there definitely would be a non-zero number of people who would be upset at something no matter how they chose to do it? But that doesn't matter. No one would pay any credence to something that is a rounding error of people, especially if it weren't based in any semblance of lore/fact.

[rhorle]

Not all complaints are as weighty as others. Complaints about someone doing something WILDLY outside of the known physical capabilities of the race (like swimming for hours) seem pretty on-point, though. Also, you act like every show has mass amounts of criticism about every single part/scene/minute of the show regardless of how things get done and that's just not true.

There is Amroth: “The mariners with their Elvish sight for a long time could see him battling with the waves, until the rising sun gleamed through the clouds and far off lit his bright hair like a spark of gold. No eyes of Elves or Men ever saw him again in Middle- earth.”

It seems pretty clear Tolkien intended the elves to be capable swimmers but still able to succumb to "natural effects" of bad weather and stuff as there are also plenty of instances of elves drowning with their ships. From Galadriel encounter another wrecked ship it is possible that she was in a "busy" route.

- - - Updated - - -

Galadriel accepting the gift even though she's been established as someone who would easily refuse such an offer, and continue her hunt. Which she absolutely does at the end of the first episode anyways.

I think this clearly shows you missed the theme of that part of the show. Yes she would easily refuse such an offer but everyone is pressuring her and working to convince her it is what is best for both her and their people. We get told that the High King wants her gone even if what she says is true because the elves feared she would keep the dark forces "alive".

[rhorle]

Elves are regarded as no more strong or physically capable than man.

That doesn't seem to be true though since many elves fought against some of the most powerful things Tolkien created. There was even a duel with Morgoth which seems like something a human wouldn't be able to do. It may be true on average they were "close" but it seems that quite often Elves had a greater strength to them. Wasn't the "power" of elves fading over time as well? So in the Second age her ability to swim might have been stronger.

[Triceron]

I think this clearly shows you missed the theme of that part of the show. Yes she would easily refuse such an offer but everyone is pressuring her and working to convince her it is what is best for both her and their people. We get told that the High King wants her gone even if what she says is true because the elves feared she would keep the dark forces "alive".

Which really doesn't make sense at all considering they're artificially making that a part of the greater narrative they want to tell at the behest of the logic of the original story.

It makes it sound like the growth of evil would be influenced by her just being in Middle Earth, and that isn't ever the case in the original story. Why is it here? Oh, because they want to make Galadriel seem ordained as some harbinger of light or darkness ala Anakin Skywalker or Arthas Menethil.

It's contrived because it's the obvious hand of the writer stringing the plot along rather than build up characters that feel like they're making authentic choices within the world.

To best enjoy this show I have to turn my brain off when watching the show. And at first impressions I do enjoy it for the spectacle. But as soon as you take any time to let what happened in the episodes sink in and think about any of the progression, then things do feel forced and unnatural, because you realize these characters aren't exactly behaving the way they should. In most cases, we're always met with characters who do the opposite of what you expect them to, often at the most crucial points in time, just for the sake of the show 'subverting your expectations' and making it feel like an unexpected twist.

I'm sure upon repeat viewings this might ring differently once you realize a stalwart soldier or a noble-on-the-run or a dutiful sailor acts 'out of character' just so that the plot can move forward.

Usually when this happens in other well-written shows, it hints at deeper motives of certain characters. Here, the characterization is all over the place, where you have every main character written with multiple (hidden) motives so that the show writers can literally excuse them for doing anything that might seem out of character. What you call character development, I call bipolar.

[DarkAmbient]

Episode 3 gave us a beautiful Númenor and some of its population that we'd expect to see. I'm glad Elendil was given to a good British actor. Halbrand is absolutely Sauron and you should expect to see that reveal at the end of the season, imo. Episode 3 made it far too obvious lol I look forward to seeing what they do with the new bad guy they introduced at the end of the episode.

My issue with that is, it would make the writing absolutely terrible. Like, making the guy interested in smithing/forging *wink wink*, giving him a murky past and connections with a people who allied with Morgoth *wink wink*. Maybe I've just been spoiled with Better Call Saul, but I swear I will facepalm in real life if Halbrand really is Sauron. I refuse to believe it's him, and am assuming Sauron isn't in the show yet.

Let's say it is Sauron. Why would he have been on that boat?

Edit: I think Halbrand will become one of the Nazgul.

[BeepBoo]

That doesn't seem to be true though since many elves fought against some of the most powerful things Tolkien created. There was even a duel with Morgoth which seems like something a human wouldn't be able to do. It may be true on average they were "close" but it seems that quite often Elves had a greater strength to them. Wasn't the "power" of elves fading over time as well? So in the Second age her ability to swim might have been stronger.

Less that they had raw strength and more that they were skilled and capable in combat. It's not like they were arm wrestling and winning. Also, the dude lost the duel again Morgoth, even though it was the first time morgoth was like "hmmm... am I actually guaranteed to win this?"

[rhorle]

Which really doesn't make sense at all considering they're artificially making that a part of the greater narrative they want to tell at the behest of the logic of the original story.

Non-tolkien stories are full of people seeking things out and succumbing to them. We are also shown how blind it is making Galadriel. Wouldn't that make her easier to fall into a trap? Is the work of Tolkien not full of people being corrupted? What if Sauron has already infiltrated the elves, as Annatar, and we haven't seen it yet. Couldn't he have been pushing to remove her as a threat while buttering up the elves to start working on the rings?

Wouldn't Annatar already be present in elven society when Celebrimbor wanted his tower/forge built? I feel like you are letting your dislike for the show close your mind on a lot of possible threads. So instead you label anything other then your view as illogical, bad, or any other negative connotation.

[Dhrizzle]

Elves are regarded as no more strong or physically capable than man. They're more dexterous with keener senses and stronger convictions, but not stronger or especially enduring. What centuries-long hunt are you talking about that they didn't also sleep, rest, and eat? Certainly you're not implying they went straight walking or running without any of those things?

That doesn't seem to be true though since many elves fought against some of the most powerful things Tolkien created. There was even a duel with Morgoth which seems like something a human wouldn't be able to do. It may be true on average they were "close" but it seems that quite often Elves had a greater strength to them. Wasn't the "power" of elves fading over time as well? So in the Second age her ability to swim might have been stronger.

Elves are spiritually stronger than Men which augments them physically. "They were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods."

Also in terms of eating and sleeping, we can look to Legolas in LotR for that - "In the waybread of the Elves he found all the sustenance that he needed, and he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of Elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world."

[Triceron]

Stories are full of people seeking things out and succumb to them. We are also shown how blind it is making Galadriel. Wouldn't that make her easier to fall into a trap? Is the work of Tolkien not full of people being corrupted? What if Sauron has already infiltrated the elves, as Annatar, and we haven't seen it yet. Couldn't he have been pushing to remove her as a threat while buttering up the elves to start working on the rings?

Wouldn't Annatar already be present in elven society when Celebrimbor wanted his tower/forge built? I feel like you are letting your dislike for the show close your mind on a lot of possible threads. So instead you label anything other then your view as illogical, bad, or any other negative connotation.

Except I'm not criticizing on a general basis of 'what could happen', since I'm even providing examples of alternatives to support my argument.

I'm criticizing the show as presented to us so far, with specific examples of what has happened so far and why it feels so unnatural.

My criticisms are specific to this show and what it's presented, and how it's chosen to present the information. And it's baffling to me because nothing about Galadriel's arc actually makes sense to her character. The rules of the world don't make sense.

Do you really think Galadriel choosing to swim out in the open sea would have a decent chance of survival and a decent chance of reaching a destination that lets her discern Sauron's plot? The fact she is many steps closer to thwarting Sauron's plans is really a contrivance of the story considering what position they put her in merely two episodes before this.


Just look at the latest episode. It does not feel like she is 'under watch' in Numenor at all. Neither is Halbrand. They were both left to roam the city as they please, with only one scene involving Elendil catching her trying to do something 'naughty' and then revealing that he has no intention of reprimanding at all, but in fact help her too. Deus ex machina. Hell, she even gets to visit Halbrand in the jail. How is this believable at all? If Halbrand got locked up for killing people, the reasonable thing I'd expect the Numenoreans to do is capture Galadriel and treat her in similar 'threat assessment' since she came here with him. Like I'm explaining here, it's a failing of the show to make the world actually seem natural and real, because the rules of the world don't make any sense at all. You have to really turn your brain off to enjoy it.

I'm glad you enjoy the show so much by not even thinking about shit like this. Ignorance really is bliss.

As I said, I'm not actually disliking the show at all. I enjoy it on a week-to-week basis, and I watch it for the scenery and the creature designs more than anything. Numenor was jawdroppingly gorgeous. I love the design of their ships. I loved seeing the Dwarf underground city. I love the Harfoot's ability to hide at any given moment. The characters and stories I really like are Elrond's story and I'm starting to enjoy the Harfoot girl's acting. But the rest of the story isn't really doing anything for me.

And I criticize the Galadriel story point the most because it really is the most flawed part of the series. Which makes no sense to me since they're obviously trying to make it the feature part of the plot, but they seem to be unable to write it in any sensible way. It's like they feel that because it's the main storyline, they have to make it more dramatic than any other story arc, and in turn that just makes it less authentic and relatable.

Like, the Elrond and Durin stone-smashing competition was built up as some perceived danger that Elrond was being put in. It ends up being non-life threatening and doesn't have crazy special effects to it... but it's awesome!! It builds on the world, it builds on the relationship between the Dwarves and Elves and shows how this ritual goes beyond any race who invokes it, it goes into their cultural values of Strength and how they offer their respect. And when you realize that they are supposed to be good friends and that one is holding a grudge, it makes it their characters even more relatable! Everything we've gotten from their story works, because the rules of the world in this setting make sense. The Dwarves act exactly how Dwarves are expected to act, refusing any strangers and not giving any fucks. But when they invoke a 'Contest of Strength', then it's something that not even an Elf would be turned away from. It's scenes like this that make me feel like this actually expands on the Middle Earth that I want to see more of. My only point of criticism would have been to not have them shown farming 'Greens' underground, since I have Nori's 'I don't eat Green food' permanently etched into my mind when I think of what Dwarves eat.

[Dhrizzle]

Less that they had raw strength and more that they were skilled and capable in combat. It's not like they were arm wrestling and winning. Also, the dude lost the duel again Morgoth, even though it was the first time morgoth was like "hmmm... am I actually guaranteed to win this?"

Morgoth was still considered the mightiest of all things in Arda at that time. Fingolfin managed to get 7 wounds on Morgoth as well as the one that made him limp forever more and he took 3 hits before he stumbled into a pit carved by one of Morgoth's strikes.

Also at least two Elves have managed to take down Balrogs in single combat. I mean they both died but still...

[s_bushido]

I feel like you are letting your dislike for the show close your mind on a lot of possible threads. So instead you label anything other then your view as illogical, bad, or any other negative connotation.

heh... Welcome to 70 pages ago.

[bledgor]

Nice to see Rhorle being bad faith/ignoring facts as normal, and people continuing to get baited into pointless conversations with him.

I mean people are seriously defending one of the most blatant deus ex machina I can think of with Galadriel jumping into the ocean THOUSANDS OF MILES FROM LAND, and not only finding 1 raft, but another ship while taking 0 supplies into the ocean with her. Then we later have her say SHE WAS FACING CERTAIN DEATH if not for Elendil saving her, and we are suppose to think this character is the same Galadriel known as the wisest and most knowledgable of the Eldar? Like this isn't teenage Galadriel, this is 4000+ year old Galadriel, I am not expecting her to be perfect, but they are literally starting her as far from her end point as possible when we are at the end of the 2nd age entering the third age at this point. It makes no sense to have her be NOTHING like her later self so far into the story.

[DeltrusDisc]

As some have said, I really hope The Stranger doesn't turn out to be Gandalf. It's just way too obvious this is the direction they're going so far. I hope they are deliberatively trying to deceive us somehow.

lol funny you say that - that's what the showrunners have said they're doing.

Like they even went so far as to say "Sauron will be a surprise, you won't think it is him at first."

Well, anyone who has Googled "Sauron" or has a lick of LotR knowledge knows he's like Satan - he will look beautiful if need-be.

They aren't even being 1% as subtle as they suggested, and it's a damned shame.

[rhorle]

I mean people are seriously defending one of the most blatant deus ex machina I can think of with Galadriel jumping into the ocean THOUSANDS OF MILES FROM LAND, and not only finding 1 raft, but another ship while taking 0 supplies into the ocean with her.

Did the show state it is thousands of miles from land? The only reference the show gives is Elrond saying "She is beyond my sight now". The only reference I can find to distance is maps Amazon released that seem to change the location of Numenor from canon so it also may have shortened the distances. Or Galardriel may have know she was "close enough" to Numenor to try to swim there. It's not like she had much of a choice given she was already on the boat.

https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules...?post_id=21753

[rogoth]

Eh? Based solely on the few wikis I found, Isildur would have been an adult (and ready to rule in his own right) by the time Numenor fell. I'm not sure what you think is "out of left field" about his inclusion in this.

oh i don't know, the fact that he wasn't even born yet when the precursor events of the second age happened, or the fact that galadriel never held any titles that this show is putting on her, and the fact that isildur would have never known who galadriel is nevermind the fact he never once met her or anyone close to her, that might have something to do with it perhaps?

[Triceron]

Did the show state it is thousands of miles from land? The only reference the show gives is Elrond saying "She is beyond my sight now". The only reference I can find to distance is maps Amazon released that seem to change the location of Numenor from canon so it also may have shortened the distances. Or Galardriel may have know she was "close enough" to Numenor to try to swim there. It's not like she had much of a choice given she was already on the boat.

https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules...?post_id=21753

We literally see an overworld map of how far away that place is. They showed us their own map of the sundering sea spanning wider than the western most point of Middle Earth to what would be Mordor. So imagine swimming across Middle Earth with no food, no supplies, and pretending it's an absolutely normal thing to somehow end up in Numenor with full access to their libraries and solve the Sauron Mark riddle within a couple episode's time.

[InfiniteCharger]

Nice to see Rhorle being bad faith/ignoring facts as normal, and people continuing to get baited into pointless conversations with him.

I mean people are seriously defending one of the most blatant deus ex machina I can think of with Galadriel jumping into the ocean THOUSANDS OF MILES FROM LAND, and not only finding 1 raft, but another ship while taking 0 supplies into the ocean with her. Then we later have her say SHE WAS FACING CERTAIN DEATH if not for Elendil saving her, and we are suppose to think this character is the same Galadriel known as the wisest and most knowledgable of the Eldar? Like this isn't teenage Galadriel, this is 4000+ year old Galadriel, I am not expecting her to be perfect, but they are literally starting her as far from her end point as possible when we are at the end of the 2nd age entering the third age at this point. It makes no sense to have her be NOTHING like her later self so far into the story.

Most people defending this show are just defending it on the grounds it has the right to exist and be different. And therefore any criticism is somehow a form of bias against the hard working people at Amazon who bravely stood up to make such a noble piece of art that can exist in its own safe space as a unique and different being. I mean how else can you explain ignoring reasonable arguments in order to pretend that any and all criticism is invalid and unfounded? It is baffling this obsession from people who don't get paid for such shilling.

And ultimately there is a difference between making changes to an existing story or IP that results in a good, compelling and entertaining story versus making changes to an existing story or IP that results in something that is not compelling, nor an entertaining story. And this shows falls into the latter category for me, which then justifies the criticism against the changes to begin with. But of course those blindly defending this show will not see this and defend the changes regardless, no matter if the results are obviously not good.

[DarkAmbient]

Yes, she should be at least 1200-ish years old, but well under 3000 years old, closer to 2000, according to Tolkien and depending on where exactly we are in the SA in RoP.

However, I don't think people expect her to be perfect. I think they just expect characters to display the qualities given them by Tolkien, a not unreasonable expectation. For example, she was known from a young age to have a "marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others", another reason why Halbrad being Sauron would be facepalm worthy.

[Skulltaker]

Wouldn't she be closer to 12/1300 at this point?


Reading your posts, and those of others, I'd argue people are expecting her to be perfect.

Galadriel sailed west in 3021 of the third age, aged 8374. We don't know the exact year Rings of Power takes place, but it's sometime befor the making of the rings in 1500, so at this point she's inbetween 1912 and 3412.

[DarkAmbient]

Galadriel was around 2200 years old at the time the rings were forged, and they haven't been forged yet, so she can't be older than that.

However, it's the Second Age and she doesn't seem to be married yet, so I think it's a lost cause to apply Tolkien's timeline to the show.